Third person view removal from SA discussion

[tommes 331]

DayZ is not a PvP FPS.

You Sir, are wrong. It has PvP and it hast first person view. So please stop lying to yourself.

[dnk 18]

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbuomj7?context=3

 

In this reddit thread, Dean Rocket Hall, the developer of this game, says that the thinks there are a wide variety of legitimate and important uses of 3rd person perspective.  

 

It clearly needs improvement, but to say that it's an exploit is ridiculous.  It's no more of an exploit than changing video settings, turning off headbob.

 

 

Looks good. I like most of the ideas there for restricting it but still allowing it. Having it be less in prone/crouched is also a nice touch, as is restricting the vertical angle. I wouldn't necessarily want an over the shoulder though since I like the avatar being center screen.

 

Not much else to discuss here. It's clear that TPV is going to stay, and the somewhat hilarious complaints of "nobody plays FPV servers so nobody plays" will just keep on in perpetuity. Like with 100,000s of players, you can't find a few hundred to populate a couple FPV-only servers. Yeah, okay...

 

 

But, I mean, GOOD GOD COMPROMISE WITH COD KIDDIES WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GIVE THEM CHOICE THE WORLD IS ENDING IM SO SUPERIOR BECAUSE I PREFER A DIFFERENT VIEW PERSPECTIVE LISTEN TO MY SMUG

 

(not directed at all FPV proponents, but you know who you are)

[franzuu 211]

This relates to the removing of 3rd person (making 1st person better) and I made it its own thread http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/160187-make-1st-person-less-clunky-remove-mouse-acceleration-deceleration-smoothing/ but I feel that it also belongs here

 

Currently in DayZ when you move your mouse slowly it translates to fast movement on the screen but when you move your mouse fast or jerk it around it actually translates to slower panning than if you had made the same movement slowly.

 

This isn't mouse smoothing which can be turned off. Rocket said that this is because of the way they do different weapon handling stuff (CQB stock VS regular). I have proposed a change to this in a previous thread I made which I'll paste here but I'm going to expand on it.

 

From the previous thread http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157752-proposed-changes-to-weapon-handling-debuffs-accuracy-tradeoffs-etc/#entry1580659

 

• 2. Remove mouse smoothing handling debuffs from longer weapons and add back weapon collision (CQB stock vs standard on the M4 for example)

 

instead

 

2a Add back weapon collision into the game. A longer rifle, an attached bayonet, stock, short stock, no stock, folded stock etc, it all changes how well you can maneuver in tight spaces.

 

2b Add inertia to swinging around your weapon. A weapon that has more attachments near the end is front heavier. Shortening the stock and removing attachments from the front (flashlight, bayonet) makes the gun easier to handle. Its shorter and less front heavy. Making the back end more heavy can make it easier to handle but adds other problem, but is still part of the equation.

 

A front heavy guns' muzzle will lag behind on a fast swing and overshoot its target when the person stops at it. This would add an element of skill to the game. An experienced player will be able to fight the inertia by:

1. Stopping before the target.

2. Actively fighting the overshoot inertia by dragging the mouse in the opposite direction.

3. Lowering their weapon on the swingaround. I don't know if this condition is worth adding, seems more of a hassle and we don't have so much control over our characters for it to be worth it + any benefit would be lost on the muzzle lag on the upswing. Main benefit would be that you don't get caught on stuff.

 

Muzzle lag on downward swings should be counteracted by gravity.

 

 

Same kind of inertia should be the property of melee weapons.

 

Now the inertia and coordination difficulties or whatever that will slow you down when turning around. Make it so that when you turn around you just rotate your torso and the turning  of your legs and hips will lag behind. The faster you turn the more your legs and hips will lag behind. This is how it is in real life.

[Markiee 9]

If we are going to remove Third Person view. Lets also make sure people cannot use Track IR, because that gives an unfair advantage towards those who doesn't use it, and would have to hold down ALT or double click it in able to use it.

Cause that would make total sense, right? They can look around in a combat situation without being hindered by it, but someone without TrackIR wouldn't be able to do it as smoothly at all

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

No hate here, I just think it's a moot point and because the solution is already available, it's just not a popular one and therefor first person servers are abandoned by first person players. Third person player simply can't be asked to pay the consequence for the first person players disloyalty to their own servers.

 

All the arguments have been heard and repeated through a number of threads throughout the mod and this discussion will continue to repeat itself. 

 

Rocket has presented the solution and it follows BI's own tradition of separating the hives or in ArmA's case separating servers. I personally think it's a mistake to limit first person players to first person hives, I think first person servers would strongly benefit from being able to switch between first and third person servers without losing their progress, instead of being forced to limit themselves to the few first person servers. 

 

I just can't imagine much traffic going the other way, third person players queuing up for first person servers.

 

DayZ getting a hardcore hive is bittersweet. Division is the last thing I personally want to see happen to the dayz community. When you offer two choices, certain types of people will pick certain types of servers, screwing with the natural pool of player personalities & skill levels. It's going to resemble the Veteran/Regular/Expert divisions early on in the mod. I would rather have everyone thrown into the same meat grinder, under the exact same conditions right across the board.

 

But, at the same time a hardcore hive might allow for more of these hardcore suggestions to be tried out without a lot of complaints about it being forced on everyone. I don't know how many times I've liked a suggestion made on these forums, but half the community screams about it being too hardcore so it goes nowhere but keeps getting talked about.

 

Having the two hives instead of sharing one seems like the better idea if there is going to be "hardcore" servers. Otherwise there's no point in wasting the time and money, because everyone will just gravitate towards the populated normal servers and the hardcore ones will sit empty most of the time like in the mod. Or worse, become a breeding ground for server hoppers or low pop looters. If it's a different hive, more people will stick to the first person only servers. They're not going to join a third person server and not realize it, or not care because it's low pop, or something else that would cause a first person player to settle for it. If they wanted a character on the hardcore hive, they're in first person view the whole time. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If there has to be a division in servers, it has to be divided effectively at least.

 

I urge people to at least give first person view a try. I'll be the first to admit I have used third person constantly in the standalone so far. But, I tried using first person only for a couple hours tonight and it's pretty good. It's nice now that weapons default to lowered, you don't have them in your face all the time. I still get an urge to click over into third person view when I leave a building or get in tight urban areas. But, I feel like that will pass over time and the experience will be more immersive in the end. I really do enjoy looking around in first person view. I might have to buy a track IR system at some point.

 

When I started playing the mod, I only played on expert servers and it really does change the experience for me. There's something about being locked into that first person camera, knowing you can NEVER go into a third person view. For me it makes the game world feel a bit more authentic. I've said before that in third person view I feel like I'm controlling a character in the game, in first person view I feel like I am that character.

[tommes 331]

But, I mean, GOOD GOD COMPROMISE WITH COD KIDDIES WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GIVE THEM CHOICE THE WORLD IS ENDING IM SO SUPERIOR BECAUSE I PREFER A DIFFERENT VIEW PERSPECTIVE LISTEN TO MY SMUG

 

(not directed at all FPV proponents, but you know who you are)

 

World won't end. Just another game will be ruined by bad taste of the masses while the same lot flames CoD players for theirs.

[tommes 331]

If we are going to remove Third Person view. Lets also make sure people cannot use Track IR, because that gives an unfair advantage towards those who doesn't use it, and would have to hold down ALT or double click it in able to use it.

Cause that would make total sense, right? They can look around in a combat situation without being hindered by it, but someone without TrackIR wouldn't be able to do it as smoothly at all

 

Another really bad argument from the TPV lovers.

Nobody will keep you from getting one or some alternative yourself. There's even a software just needing a webcam to achieve similar results. Everyone should use this kind of enchancement because it's awesome. It improves your gaming experience significantly.

[Markiee 9]

Another really bad argument from the TPV lovers.

Nobody will keep you from getting one or some alternative yourself. There's even a software just needing a webcam to achieve similar results. Everyone should use this kind of enchancement because it's awesome. It improves your gaming experience significantly.

Except you have to buy a TrackIR in order to use it. Third Person is already in the game, so everyone has the same advantages of Thrid Person, they don't with TrackIR.  Your counter-arugment is not much better...

[Hello moto 70]

Snip

Its physically impossible to see someone over a wall without exposing yourself, such basic realism shouldn't be left out of any game such as DayZ.

Define 'exposing yourself'. There are plenty of ways I can look over/around/through things with out anyone(except some who is already staring at the spot my eye/eyes are and within 10 meters) seeing me, or even having an inkling I am there.

[tommes 331]

Except you have to buy a TrackIR in order to use it. Third Person is already in the game, so everyone has the same advantages of Thrid Person, they don't with TrackIR.  Your counter-arugment is not much better...

 

*sigh*

 

The argument is that TPV enabled makes combat completely ridiculous and common sense breaking. TrackIR doesn't. It just enhances the gaming experience of the respective user like having a really good gaming mouse with extra knobs'n'shit or a extra joystick for flying helicopters or the like. Btw, there's the FaceTrack(No)IR-Software free of charge. You only need a compatible webcam.

 

http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm

 

Use it! You won't regret and I'll give you my blessings.

 

Now once again, even Rocket stated that having 3rd person view enabled is problematic. So it's kinda offical. It's also kinda official that 3rd person won't be removed entirely. So there's no need for you guys to be afraid. No one in this world would be able to stand the mother of all bitchings which would follow the removal of 3rd person view from DayZ. Jesus himself would go like "Fuck that shit! I'm out."

[Hello moto 70]

DayZ is a FPS and has PvP in it by design. It is based on a game based around military action that is supposed to be played mostly in first person view.

Whatever you think DayZ is, it's not. It's a sandbox. It's Rocket's sandbox. Not what you want it to be. You can't talk the FPS and the PvP out of DayZ. It's there by design and it's a core concept. Third person view is the side effect. Not the cause. Your argument is invalid and with that incredibly stupid...as most pro TPV arguments are in the long run because as much first person only arguments ar solely for fair and plausible PvP combat so are pro third person arguments solely of personal comfort.

Gta has third person and PvP. But it's not a third person PvP. It has cars and the ability to race them, but it doesn't make it a racing game.

Dayz is a zombie apocalypse survival. It has PvP yes. If we're going to start calling genres by sub genres only then gta should from now on be classed as a crime third person city simulation racing sports flying diving property management game.

[KeyaKev 12]

I agree, Third Person is as close to cheating as ghosting, hopping, duping, etc as it gets. It really pisses me off. However, I do admit that I myself cheat by looking over walls and around corners and the rest of it. I really wish they would add lights and electricity from the power plants, and forcing everyone to play in the dark. However, there should be 2 Dayz days inside of one RL Day. Evading the night is cheating too. Just has minimal impact.

We both have very different views on cheating. 

You are probably one of those people who use the brightness/gamma combo to see during the night but you complain about someone using third person to see over a wall to check if you're running straight in the middle of an open field.

 

 

I like playing in third person because it's more visually appealing to me. Therefore everyone should be forced to play in third person

 

Pretty much sums up all of you in one post.

[BelMarduk 169]

Nobody runs around in only first person. If the option is there you HAVE to use it. Jesus fucking christ, don't be so ignorant to the discussion, we're not here to piss you off, or make the game easier on ourselves, we're here trying to show you guys how no third person eliminates a lot of bullshit tactics. It's not that we don't use third person view, it's that we don't want the option to use it.

so to sum up all the pro-1st person arguments. You all have ZERO self control, and all of us should be forced into a play style because you all have no self control. 1st person servers will alleviate all issues. BUT because none of you can actually bring yourselves to play in your hardcore-leet mode. everyone needs to be forced... is that about right? I mean really? honestly? really? It truly does seem to come down to this. That is the underlying  argument across the board here. Wow, I am done arguing this because I honestly now know the mechinations behind ALL you 1st person or nothing arguers. You all have left me wanting.

[Markiee 9]

*sigh*

 

The argument is that TPV enabled makes combat completely ridiculous and common sense breaking. TrackIR doesn't. It just enhances the gaming experience of the respective user like having a really good gaming mouse with extra knobs'n'shit or a extra joystick for flying helicopters or the like. Btw, there's the FaceTrack(No)IR-Software free of charge. You only need a compatible webcam.

 

http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm

 

Use it! You won't regret and I'll give you my blessings.

 

Now once again, even Rocket stated that having 3rd person view enabled is problematic. So it's kinda offical. It's also kinda official that 3rd person won't be removed entirely. So there's no need for you guys to be afraid. No one in this world would be able to stand the mother of all bitchings which would follow the removal of 3rd person view from DayZ. Jesus himself would go like "Fuck that shit! I'm out."

I was pointing something out, in the same way as you did. I have no problem with TrackIR I won't get it, don't care if others use it. But I was making a argument against it the same way you do towards TPV.

[tommes 331]

I was pointing something out, in the same way as you did. I have no problem with TrackIR I won't get it, don't care if others use it. But I was making a argument against it the same way you do towards TPV.

 

No,you didn't. Your point was bad and is essentially the same as "everybody can use it, so it's fair". This is not relevant. The point is TPV makes combat weird and implausible which detracts from the gaming experience of all users, most of them not even realizing.

[Papanowel (DayZ) 34]

If we are going to remove Third Person view. Lets also make sure people cannot use Track IR, because that gives an unfair advantage towards those who doesn't use it, and would have to hold down ALT or double click it in able to use it.

Cause that would make total sense, right? They can look around in a combat situation without being hindered by it, but someone without TrackIR wouldn't be able to do it as smoothly at all

 

You never use a track-ir for saying such an invalid argument ;)

 

I have a track-ir for more than 3 years  now and I never heard someone complaining about that. Alt works pretty well.

 

The track-ir superiority come once you get inside a vehicle, that's all.

[Xandariel 14]

Im all for introducing 1st person only. After playing ArmA3 on a really nice 1st person only server for a while I came to love it. Before, I used to hate 1st person. But it makes for very tense and good combat situations. 

 

I see 2 problems though, currently. 

 

1. If you got a big backpack and you look back using your numpad, you see nothing but the backpack -> needs to be looked at.

 

2. First person is useful only when others cant use third person. As much as I love first person, I still use third person at the moment as Id be at a major disadvantage otherwise.

[Heiduk 265]

I see 2 problems though, currently. 

 

1. If you got a big backpack and you look back using your numpad, you see nothing but the backpack -> needs to be looked at.

This is a feature not a problem. Wearing a big backpack IRL also obstructs your view, in fact it is often a bigger obstruction than it currently is in game as it can prevent your head from tilting back far enough to look up. If you want an unobstructed view use a smaller backpack. Interesting choices.

[Jonah_Hobbes 171]

I tend to use 3rd person and have for most games I've played as I get horrible, horrible motion-sickness. There were those Sherlock Holmes and Lovercraft ist person games that would have me reaching for the sick bucket in 10mins and even stopping playing the feeling of neusea will persist for hours. Ditto the terrible State of Decay port to PC.

 

TBH it never really occured to me to see it as an advantage as it just well never occured to me. I assumined everyone was playing in 3rd person. (I'm obviously not a big FPS player can you tell)? I don't even use 1st in combat!

 

I can hear people saying go and play W0W or Resi or something, But I like this game and I reckon there are a lot of players like me out there.

 

I will go and try 1st just to experiment, so I reduce head bob yes?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Jonah_Hobbes

[BL1P 252]

Yup head bob off

Motion blur off

 

I make one of my mouse keys the alt key so i can easily press it to turn my head.

I must say as well the turn head feature in the ArmA series is one of the best features in a game I have ever seen, yet I cant think of another game that uses it.

 

I have lost count of the times in other games i press the alt to look around and my whole body turns and I swear at the game I am playing :)

Edited December 30, 2013 by BL1P

[TimM1983 57]

After reading all 39 pages now I think everything is clear and we just wait for rocket. Most of the 3rd person user admitted this is a cheat / exploit when you are in a combat ( PVP ), but they still want to keep the view for the landscape and character. As a defender of FPV I prefer to have 3rd person without the currently PVP-cheat and everyone is happy, the only people not happy are spoiled kids who want to see 360° over/through walls while ducked behind a window/wall.

 

The only question is: How is rocket and his team going to fix the 3rd person without having a PVP cheat ?

[Markiee 9]

You never use a track-ir for saying such an invalid argument ;)

 

I have a track-ir for more than 3 years  now and I never heard someone complaining about that. Alt works pretty well.

 

The track-ir superiority come once you get inside a vehicle, that's all.

I'm not complaining about TrackIR. Seriously, it as a example as to how stupid this argument with "REMOVE 3RD PERSON NOW PLZ" is.  Removing support for TrackIR would be just as stupid as removing 3rd Person View.

I got nothing against TrackIR, or people using it or whatever. It was just an example as to how some people argue over how bad 3rd person is, and how dumb it would be to argue for the removal of TrackIR.

So once again, nothing against it, was just an example :)

[dallas 5195]

I love this attempt to redefine a feature that's always been part of the engine and readily available to everyone as an unfair cheat and exploit, just because you guys refuse to fill up your own servers, where this feature is disabled for everyone.

[twinturbonet (DayZ) 294]

I'd like to have 3rd person to be able to see my character occasionally.  Other than that, I agree, I believe it should be first person only since I have exploited 3rd person so much when I snipe people in the city.  I shouldn't be able to lay prone and view the whole city behind a wall lol.

Edited December 30, 2013 by twinturbonet

[tremanarch 42]

it violates the when I see you you see me rule and makes it impossible to scan a city when running through it cause many people could be behind walls. so instead of scanning houses and windows as it should be i just run zig zag through the city and wait behind walls..

 

more paranoia

 

solution is easy:

 

when in 3rd person, all player models are invisible...  so it can be used for orientation - but not for seeing others

Edited December 30, 2013 by Phace