Third person view removal from SA discussion

[Benlandia 73]

A large majority of the player base seems to enjoy using third person. It will likely stay in the game.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I dont follow. What do you mean "...lose the ability to truly conceal yourself and be sneaky."?  You will actually be able to be more sneaky, than in straight up 1st, as you can see your body in relation to everything around you (part of that sense of presence I go on about).

You gain everything you want (as a first person proponent), the only legitimate argument being, TPV seeing other players over walls and around corners. That problem is mitigated with raycasting.

I honestly do not understand what your getting at in the second paragraph (unless sarcasm?).

 

He thinks the ability to see people without exposing yourself is something we should keep because it benefits the gameplay.

[BelMarduk 169]

The thing that makes me lol the most, is the simple fact that when 1st person servers become available, just by sheer numbers of all the first person 'proponents', they (the 1st person servers) will still remain empty.

bad_mojo said:

"There's no risk & reward in third person view or being under the ground a foot. In real life, while you can hide better, you can't hide perfect, you have to expose yourself at least a bit to get a peak at something. In dayz, you risk nothing and see everything."

 

but I bet dollars to doughnuts he will not frequent the first person only servers, nor will all the other 1st proponents. Maybe once, but if that will only be to 'prove me wrong'. He, nor any other of the most vocal 1st only drum beaters will go play with their like minded brethren in arms. Will not keep the numbers high enough to keep 1st person servers alive. Didn't happen in the MOD and won't happen in SA. Now after ALL the bloviating on this subject, I would ask a simple (but oh so telling) to the 1st person proponents.

Why were 1st person MOD servers perpetually empty (and subsequently) why will SA 1st person servers be equally as barren if 1st is so popular amongst your ilk?

Remember, you now have your own server, where no one can TPV 'cheat'... why will they be empty all the time?

If you have the beans to actually answer please do, mind now to be honest :blush:

[alldaypk 63]

 

No, youre right, it's not the same. In fact it provides a much broader field of view than normal human foveal vision but a narrower overall field of vision. If you want the game to resemble actual human sight you ought to be prepared to have a game that looks like this:

 

 

No you aren't wounded (and that isn't one of the infected), this is normal human vision.

Guys

 

Guys, hey

 

Hey guys-hey listen!

 

Guys, guys what if- oi, hear me out

 

What if 3rd person- wait, guys..

 

What if 3rd person had the screen blurred where the character could not see (over walls, around corners etc), you would only be able to see a person or a zed if they made a noise, though still blurry, and invisible when not moving or undetectable. It also got more blurred and distorted with distance.

 

People would stop relying on 3rd person to cheat as well as allowing some of that simulated human sense.

 

It sounds complicated, but i think it'll work in practice.

 

Think about it:

 

About to peek around a fence, you hear a slight groan and you see a distorted body shuffling, it bumps into things making a thud sound as it drags it's limp leg, you see other blurry things (the 'objects' the zombie walked into) for the duration of the bump, but you're not sure what they are of, so, you peek around the corner and...   it's a horde of zombies, dormant, until you, stumbled upon them.

 

Eh? Do you like my idea? Guys... did you even listen?

[Markiee 9]

The rooftop example is a great one...

 

in 3rd person servers (well.. all of them at the moment), it's barely worth scanning them knowing that someone could just be prone behind the raised edge and getting a bird's eye view of EVERYTHING in 360 degrees. 

 

 

However, in real life. I would be able to peek over the edge to look directly down from the rooftop, in DayZ/Arma you can't do that. Only with 3rd person is that possible

[landfish 62]

The decision of weather a feature should be removed or not, should not be for the sake of popularity but for the sake of the game. Call of Duty is the most popular game right now but does that mean the whole gaming industry has to cater to those COD gamers who makes up arguably 50% of the gaming community? Its the same case for 3rd person, just because most of your community prefers it, that doesn't mean its good for the game. 

 

This really is becoming like a religious debate, you can have a very logical argument but in the end the vocal majority always wins no matter how many reasons are represented right in front of their faces. Its really obvious now, this topic will keep popping up if Rocket keeps pretending that 3rd person is not that big of an issue. 

 

Also, what's the difference between the 3rd person button and a button that allows you to choose weather a game is at 100% difficulty or 80%  difficulty?

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[BL1P 252]

Confirmed upcoming features for dayz as posted by rocket

 

Server Management Options

 

Target Delivery: Ongoing

 

Additional options for those hosting servers will be rolled out as soon as we can. We want to encourage a "hardcore" mode that will operate on a separate database, featuring things like first person only, no hide body, etc... In addition, we also want to provide passworded servers that will operate on their own shard of the database. This shard could be grouped, so that a group of passworded servers could operate on their own database. Eventually, we would like to see these different communities on their own db running their own variations of DayZ to meet specific communities needs.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/156129-confirmed-upcoming-features-for-dayz/#entry1564197

 

So problem solved !

2 data bases

1 for Recruit Mode 

1 for Elite Mode

Edited December 30, 2013 by BL1P

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The thing that makes me lol the most, is the simple fact that when 1st person servers become available, just by sheer numbers of all the first person 'proponents', they (the 1st person servers) will still remain empty.

bad_mojo said:

"There's no risk & reward in third person view or being under the ground a foot. In real life, while you can hide better, you can't hide perfect, you have to expose yourself at least a bit to get a peak at something. In dayz, you risk nothing and see everything."

 

but I bet dollars to doughnuts he will not frequent the first person only servers, nor will all the other 1st proponents. Maybe once, but if that will only be to 'prove me wrong'. He, nor any other of the most vocal 1st only drum beaters will go play with their like minded brethren in arms. Will not keep the numbers high enough to keep 1st person servers alive. Didn't happen in the MOD and won't happen in SA. Now after ALL the bloviating on this subject, I would ask a simple (but oh so telling) to the 1st person proponents.

Why were 1st person MOD servers perpetually empty (and subsequently) why will SA 1st person servers be equally as barren if 1st is so popular amongst your ilk?

Remember, you now have your own server, where no one can TPV 'cheat'... why will they be empty all the time?

If you have the beans to actually answer please do, mind now to be honest :blush:

 

I play on servers with more than 30 people. To me, people are the most important factor in DayZ. If I have to join a low population server in order to play first person only, I simply won't. I can have fun on a third person server with people, but I can't have fun in first person when there's nobody in the server. When the mod first came out there were populated first person servers, that's all I ever played.

 

Why do I believe first person servers always ended up empty? Because there's a choice, and tpv is the easier mode. It's human nature to take the path of least resistance.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

However, in real life. I would be able to peek over the edge to look directly down from the rooftop, in DayZ/Arma you can't do that. Only with 3rd person is that possible

 

I'm sure this could be changed somehow. Maybe when you look straight down your character leans out a bit? I see your point, but I don't see the only solution being tpv.

[landfish 62]

 

 

We want to encourage a "hardcore" mode that will operate on a separate database, featuring things like first person only, no hide body, etc...

Isn't DayZ itself supposed to be that hardcore zombie sim that Rocket is so proud about? Just wondering, what kind of gamers is Rocket targeting with servers that are not "hardcore"? (I'm pretty certain those are the COD kiddies and dudebro gamers who makes up more than half of this community so don't brag about popularity of 3rd person to 1st person enthusiasts).

 

This is a goddamn gift to those server owners and players who made 1000+ choppers, M4 and a full backpack at spawn so popular and ruined the mod.

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[dallas 5195]

So problem solved !

2 data bases 1 for Ezmode 1 for Hardcore.

Never had a problem with the word Ezmode and since hardcore these days are used to describe normal mode, so casual gamers can feel awesome too, I've got no problem with not being considered hardcore.

[AP_Norris 1018]

However, in real life. I would be able to peek over the edge to look directly down from the rooftop, in DayZ/Arma you can't do that. Only with 3rd person is that possible

You can prone over the edge slightly and use alt to look down (I think).

Or stand at the edge and use E, then alt to look right down.

And of course in the process you would be exposing yourself, as IRL.

Edited December 30, 2013 by AP_Norris

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Isn't DayZ itself supposed to be that hardcore zombie sim that Rocket is so proud about? Just wondering, what kind of gamers is Rocket targeting with servers that are not "hardcore"?

 

This is a goddamn gift to those server owners and players who made 1000+ choppers, M4 and a full backpack at spawn so popular and ruined the mod.

 

I fear that Rocket doesn't want to disappoint the masses that purchased his game. I miss the days where Rocket would make a change and then post memes when the masses came here to cry about it. Those were the days.

[AP_Norris 1018]

Never had a problem with the word Ezmode and since hardcore these days are used to describe normal mode, so casual gamers can feel awesome too, I've got no problem with not being considered hardcore.

I'm going to go ahead and say that your just that un casual that hardcore seems very easy.

If you play every couple of days then hardcore should be about your level off difficulty, right?

I will admit, console games seem to be just a grind and eventually you can prevail.

Such as halo.

I die 20+ times at some points to the same group of enemies.

But eventually by just watching how the AI react, finding out new spots and guns I manage to get it.

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

I fear that Rocket doesn't want to disappoint the masses that purchased his game. I miss the days where Rocket would make a change and then post memes when the masses came here to cry about it. Those were the days.

 

That was a mod. This is its own game. He probably actually cares if DayZ sales well.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Diggydug

[dallas 5195]

I'm just not used to the term hardcore, to me it's kind of a console term. I'm a long time ArmA player, so I'm more used to the terms Veteran and Expert and used to play Expert exclusively, but with the kind of hours you spend in DayZ, I found myself enjoying myself more and for longer sessions in third person mode and not because I specifically need a tactical advantage, but simply because it's way more relaxing for the eyes/brain.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Dallas

[dnk 18]

 @ BelMarduk

I dont follow. What do you mean "...lose the ability to truly conceal yourself and be sneaky."?  You will actually be able to be more sneaky, than in straight up 1st

 

I honestly do not understand what your getting at in the second paragraph (unless sarcasm?).

 

You lose the ability when you're in 1st person. I think 3rd person gives more realistic concealment/stealth and situational awareness (required for the former).

 

2nd paragraph: the 3rd person camera is too far from the player currently, allowing too much situational awareness. By restricting the distance of the camera to the player (1-2 feet instead of 4-6 feet), we would allow for stealthy "peeks" and "camping" while not having it be nearly ESP-level awareness as it is currently. I want some TPV peeking around corners, because the controls/animations are so clunkier in Arma engines than my own control of my body and positioning in reality (which would allow me to peek or camp in relative stealth). I disagree with raycasting because it completely removes this ability. We should just have a more restricted version of it: a closer TPV camera. If it was a lot closer to the player's body, you'd need to be very close to the corner/wall/window/bush/etc to peek past it, but you still wouldn't need to clunkily move around to peek.

 

Also, it's more realistic because in reality concealment is far more effective than in the game. TPV allows you to effectively mirror this reality with a somewhat unrealistic ESP-like TPV. Limiting the TPV to a closer distance reduces the unrealism while maintaining the concealment.

 

 

 

@bad_mojo

I'm sure this could be changed somehow. Maybe when you look straight down your character leans out a bit? I see your point, but I don't see the only solution being tpv.

 

Any attempted solution to this, and peeking around corners, and through windows, and through small cracks, and through bushes is already there in 3rd person. If we make TPV more limited, so it's not like a giant, 5-ft-long super periscope, we get the best of both worlds - first-person restriction and 3rd-person awareness - with a solid compromise.

 

 

There's no risk & reward in third person view or being under the ground a foot. In real life, while you can hide better, you can't hide perfect, you have to expose yourself at least a bit to get a peak at something. In dayz, you risk nothing and see everything.

 

You can hide close to perfect, and that "little bit" of personal exposure is far less obvious/visible than in this engine. Far, far less.

Edited December 30, 2013 by -Hawkeye-

[BL1P 252]

Reworded my post for you all so as to be less controversial and to use ArmA difficulty setting terms :)

 

"So problem solved !

2 data bases

1 for Recruit Mode 

1 for Elite Mode"

 

Although that is ArmA3 settings hmm 

in ArmA2 I guess it would be Recruit and Mercenary 

 

Or if you prefer 

 

1 for Mode One

1 for Mode Two

 

My favorite is 

 

1 for Pussy Carebear Mode

1 for BadAssMofo Mode

Edited December 30, 2013 by BL1P

[landfish 62]

 

 

I fear that Rocket doesn't want to disappoint the masses that purchased his game. I miss the days where Rocket would make a change and then post memes when the masses came here to cry about it. Those were the days.

Really sad I know:( I don't know who is to blame though? This community which most doesn't really get what a survival game should be about or Rocket, for catering to their demands before the games own well-being?

 

 

That was a mod. This is its own game. He probably actually cares if DayZ sales well.

That's how corporations think, money, before the health of the product they're developing. I don't know, but if I was Rocket, I'd actually care if DayZ was a large-scale periscope battle or an intense survival game, doesn't matter if the sales of the game drops.

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

What if they cater to both sides by having different servers on on a different database so those who'd prefer everyone is in first person can enjoy just that? What if they did that??? WHAT IF THEY DID THIS???????

 

Man that'd be crazy huh?

 

 

 

I'll just add that I look forward to such a thing, should it ever exist. Should it ever be confirmed to ever exist...

Edited December 30, 2013 by Diggydug

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

That was a mod. This is its own game. He probably actually cares if DayZ sales well.

 

That's why it strikes fear in my heart. The mod grew to popularity because it specifically didn't care about pleasing the masses. If he starts to care now, then he might end up ignoring the stuff that made DayZ popular in the first place. In other words, I don't want to see him making any decisions for the sake of selling more copies. I came to DayZ specifically because it was trying to be something different, something difficult and unforgiving. An authentic experience, where typical video game strategies go out the window and human intuition is valued.

 

But yeah, let's keep the invisible para-scopes because some people might be upset about their removal. That attitude is going to make a great video game. :(

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

I agree, but it's not the same. This is bigger. There's more on the line. I think he'll handle it well though.

 

 

A bigger problem though is advertising. Up to this point, and even as it sells now, everyone buying expects third person. Unless they made it a point to say, "Yo we got rid of that, it's all first person now," then people would be understandably mad. To then respond to their woes with "Alpha" would just be insulting.

 

Now answer me this. What's wrong with the future "hardcore hive" or whatever it's to be called, where it will be first person only for everyone on it? Why can't that exist while having the public hive with third person as well?

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

 

@bad_mojo

 

Any attempted solution to this, and peeking around corners, and through windows, and through small cracks, and through bushes is already there in 3rd person. If we make TPV more limited, so it's not like a giant, 5-ft-long super periscope, we get the best of both worlds - first-person restriction and 3rd-person awareness - with a solid compromise.

 

I understand. But, the way this game engine is, we can move our players in just about any way imaginable given the right programming. If it's possible to put in a better way of peaking over & around objects, why would you resist that to keep third person?

 

Look, you're never going to convince me that being able to see out of cover is a good thing. If you can see over a wall without exposing yourself, I don't follow how that's a good compromise.

[dallas 5195]

Remember that the non-catering-to-the-masses mod still featured third person view, just like the non-catering-to-the-masses mil-sim ArmA did. The mod also allowed first person players to chose servers limited to first person view, unfortunately they weren't very popular.

[landfish 62]

 

 

What if they cater to both sides by having different servers on on a different database so those who'd prefer everyone is in first person can enjoy just that? What if they did that??? WHAT IF THEY DID THIS???????

Been debated to death on that last 3rd person removal thread. Many people choose the path of least resistance, that's why most 1st person servers are empty. DayZ should not be the game that lets players choose if they want to play on easy or hard. This is not Minecraft. 

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish