Is 3rd person really going away?

[Kolchak (DayZ) 5]

Not going away, dev team has never made it a priority and they have much more pressing issues right now.

[spabs2 0]

I see both sides and both arguments; however, most of the pro-1P only camp seem to lodge "realism" and "you can't peer around corners without sticking your head out irl" as their strongest arguments. Let me make your same argument, but this time defeating your point:

1) In real life, I have perfect elevation control of my body. By this, I mean that if I so desire, I can have it so my head is visible when rising above cover only to just below my eyes. In ArmA2/DayZ, I only have 3 elevation options: full stand (where my eyes are at eye level), crouched (where my eyes are about abdomen level) and prone (where my eyes are ~15cm off the ground).

2) When taking prone shots (as at an outdoor rifle range), I can set up rests for varying elevations/stability for my weapon, use bi-pods to stabilize the weapon, spread the grass out to improve field of view downrange (if it's obscuring vision) and many other actions that assure I can get a clear shot downrange (often without compromising my own visibility, not that this aspect particularly matters at a recreational outdoor rifle range). In ArmA2/DayZ, I can do none of these things. No high caliber weapons have workable bi-pods, that I'm aware of. If I'm prone in the grass, I can do nothing to minimize my profile further (especially with a god-awful contrasting coloured backpack standing 20cm tall off my arse above the grassline).

3) In real life, I can lay on my side (granted, this is rather ineffective for a rifle) and have just my upper torso and arms peaking out from behind a corner, leaving the rest of my body in cover. In ArmA2/DayZ, I'm either fully obscured or fully removed from cover when I want to take a shot or peek around a corner (should it be restricted to first person).

4) -- Note: This is probably the most important one-- Peripheral vision, awareness of self, kinesthetic sense, proprioception, interoception, etc.

[3rd person and crosshairs] help simulate a physical sensation: propriocepital and kinesthesial awareness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

[...]

This is the sense of where your limbs are. If I'm playing DayZ and want to prone around corner and if I'm stuck in first person' date=' I don't know where my feet are going to be. Third person lets me know my feet aren't going to be poking around the side.

[...']

And I've held and shot a lot of weapons in my time. I have a gist of where the weapon is pointed that's more specific than "foward."

This said it best.

In first person in *ANY* shooter/sim, you have no way of simulating *FEELING* where your body is in relation to the environment. Third person view gives the player visual feedback to these senses since computer characters have no proprioception or kinesthetic sense themselves. Just as computer characters have interoception (the ability to feel internal sensations such as hunger, pain, etc.), we have GUI icons to represent hunger, blood loss, thirst and body temperature. This is visual feedback to the PLAYER as to what a CHARACTER is feeling. Caps for emphasis, for while as much as we'd like to integrate the two as much as possible (this is where immersion happens), having no visual feedback for proprioception and interoception actually DEGRADES the experience of immersion. The player cannot feel a virtual character's hunger pains. We can't feel the dehydration induced migraines (though blurred vision and photosensitivity could be emulated, perhaps). We don't shiver when our virtual character gets cold. As players we RELY on visual cues to enhance the immersion provided by games like this, as they are currently the only effective way of portraying senses that virtual characters are INCAPABLE of having.

-----

Removing 3rd person is a balance issue, not an immersion issue. Those advocating the removal of 3rd person who claim the "realism" and "immersion" argument are, in fact, falsely claiming this argument, as their removals would mean the removal visual cues to sensations that have no digital analogue, thereby reducing both realism and immersion.

For anyone to genuinely claim these arguments, they must also be fully in favor of the removal of all GUI elements. Anyone else is being completely disingenuous with themselves and the rest of the community.

* This means no counter to tell you exactly how much blood you have left; I mean, look at yourself up and down and tell me exactly how much blood you have in your body, down to the milliliter, I challenge you to do this.

* This means no icon to say when you're in shock or when you've broken a bone. You'd just have hear the snap (which in itself is an auditory cue, something you don't always hear depending on the bone broken and how it was broken, so actually, the snap sound would play only ~20% of the time).

* This means no gauges for hunger and thirst. You'd only know you were hungry when your character falls over gripping his stomach in hunger pains. You'd only know you were thirsty when migraines hit from dehydration, causing dizziness, photosensitivity, and fatigue. Dehydration would also cause fainting and eventually death (without the gradual blood loss mechanic which can be countered by eating food. Yes, as of right now you can eat food to mitigate the only current effect of being fully dehydrated -- how's that for your realism?).

And while I'm sure there are "hardcore" players that would love a mode like this, there does come a point where realism and senselessly increasing difficulty for the sake of a "hardcore experience" greatly overshadow playability, even for this "anti-game" audience.

[macnana 0]

First person is realistic. 3rd person is retarded, you're not going to have that IRL.

[Powermolch 3]

First person is realistic. 3rd person is retarded' date=' you're not going to have that IRL.

[/quote']

Maybe you can take a look at the post above yours.

[mansen 1]

"Lots of steam being blown out an ass..."

* This means no counter to tell you exactly how much blood you have left; I mean' date=' look at yourself up and down and tell me exactly how much blood you have in your body, down to the milliliter, I challenge you to do this.

[/quote']

Rocket already mentioned this direction as a goal - subtle visual and audio cues for the hud elements. Your stomach will growl when hungry, you'll sound parched et cetera. So in a way the joke is on you

[fml 29]

Owned by Sovereign.

excellent post.

[SlickShoes 21]

Third person is a must for me, whilst I don't mind first person view in most games in this one it is truly horrible. The constant swaying motion makes you want to vomit after about 10 minutes of just moving around as normal. If we want realism, when I am crouched and moving around at walking pace my head isn't constantly waving from side to side.

Sovereign nailed it on all points though, I find third person much more realistic because I have peripheral vision, i can peak around corners etc in FP if I am laying in the grass and want to see something ahead I can't just peak my head up and look I have to crouch or stand completely exposing myseld, that's not realistic at all.

[bonafide 2]

The only reason I want to keep it is because while running in 1st person view' date=' your screen shakes like crazy. IRL, the human brain can compensate for much of the movement of the head while keeping vision focused and relatively clear. That is NOT the case when you're in 1st person mode in Day Z. I use 3rd person while traveling in the country so I can alt-look around and view my surroundings without the stupidly violent view shaking.

[/quote']

turn head bobbing off in the options. Problem solved.

[ReaperOne1Two2 0]

Reading through most of this post it seems everyone missed the easiest solution. Make it so it isn't an optional feature. When you join a server you are FORCED into 1st or 3rd person by default for those servers that have it set. This removes disadvantages or advantages gained by it by players exploiting its existence fixing the balance issue. Also fixes the issues of those who don't know that 3rd person exists vs those who do. I have a feeling this will drop most servers populations that have it enabled at least.

I have seen 3-5 videos of people camping around corners in 3rd and just killing people instantly with cross-hairs on them as soon as line of sight is established while the guy on the assaulting end actually has no way of telling the enemies position. I also saw another video where a guy sat in 3rd and dodged an enemies grenade throw to get them out of there cover since he can freely see them throwing a grenade while out of sight.

I personally got some really nice gear hiding behind trees fully out of sight and scouting to kill heavily armed players doing this also but it is very lame.

[FatFukinLenny 0]

^^That is why I only play on servers with it disabled..

[GodOfGrain 191]

+1 serverside option

[ZombieCarnage 0]

Sovereigns post is completely off regarding LOS. 3rd person gives reward without risk. How is being able to see around a corner without risking being spotted ( either peering with your head or using a mirror ) balanced? It's not. End of story.

It is not about realism, it is about balance. This game is not PvP based, but PvP is part of the game. When you have 1 life and the possibility of losing all of your items, why should a defensive camper have an inhuman advantage with 0 risk?

[vanilladragon 1]

i cannot fathom why anyone would not want the choice to be server specific.

especially given how clunky first person is. its like driving a forklift in a toilet stall with a blind fold on

---

Sovereigns post is completely off regarding LOS. 3rd person gives reward without risk. How is being able to see around a corner without risking being spotted ( either peering with your head or using a mirror ) balanced? It's not. End of story.

It is not about realism' date=' it is about balance. This game is not PvP based, but PvP is part of the game. When you have 1 life and the possibility of losing all of your items, why should the defensive camper have all of the advantages with 0 risk?

[/quote']

how can you claim its not balanced when both parties have the option?

[patluk@sasktel.net 1]

That Proprioception thing is for real. I really need 3rd person to know where I am in the environment. The swimmy gross 1st person view actually gives me less immersion because I don't know where I am in relation to anything. I only use first person when I need to see out of vehicles properly.

[ZombieCarnage 0]

i cannot fathom why anyone would not want the choice to be server specific.

especially given how clunky first person is. its like driving a forklift in a toilet stall with a blind fold on

---

Sovereigns post is completely off regarding LOS. 3rd person gives reward without risk. How is being able to see around a corner without risking being spotted ( either peering with your head or using a mirror ) balanced? It's not. End of story.

It is not about realism' date=' it is about balance. This game is not PvP based, but PvP is part of the game. When you have 1 life and the possibility of losing all of your items, why should the defensive camper have all of the advantages with 0 risk?

[/quote']

how can you claim its not balanced when both parties have the option?

Comprehension fail?

Because the defensive player can see his target without having LOS? A player on top of a tower can see below without ever revealing himself, while a player below does not have the ability see the location up top.

[Miss_Nuts 9]

I love 1st person and actually hate 3rd. Not just in this game but every game I've ever played.

1st gives such an amazing immersion feel (and I'm a sucker for immersion) but I can understand why folks like 3rd. Not only for the gameplay elements of seeing things you should never be able to see in RL - have you ever 360'd you own arse? - but because people can relate to their character etc etc.

Me, I AM my character, so I'll always play 1st because that's how I roll. However given freedom of choice is definitely the way forward, I would love to see a stable future of servers dictating their own personal preferences.

[vanilladragon 1]

First person is realistic. 3rd person is retarded' date=' you're not going to have that IRL.

[/quote']

nor will weapons and food spawn on the floor of buildings, do you advocate removing weapon and food spawns?

[nacrom 82]

I always liked third person because it allowed me to view my character. It may sound silly but I like seeing how that new piece of clothing or weapon looks.

[rotekz 18]

+1 for server option as it is now.

I don't understand why the people wanting 3rd removed don't just play on 1st person only servers.

Why insist on removing 3rd person enabled servers? No one is being forced to play on them. It's just another form of griefing and elitism. Trying to remove enjoyment for as many people as possible.

Sovereigns post is bang on with the reasons that 3rd person is needed as a server option.

[trig 1]

Whining about 1st person is like whining about PvP.

In a real zombie apocalypse everyone would be killing each other and NOONE would have 3rd person view, ok!

Stop trying to make this game easier. 3rd person is so Hello Kitty. If you can't take 1st person view, then this game isn't for you and you should play tetris instead.

[aphex187 52]

Some of us on here don't like the feel of fp and play with 3rd only. Compared to the many other games I have played after playing ARMA it leaves me feeling dizzy and disorientated lol!

Keep 3DP, if you don't like it rent a server like I have or find one of many servers that leave it off!!!!

[vanilladragon 1]

Whining about 1st person is like whining about PvP.

In a real zombie apocalypse everyone would be killing each other and NOONE would have 3rd person view' date=' ok!

Stop trying to make this game easier. 3rd person is so Hello Kitty. If you can't take 1st person view, then this game isn't for you and you should play tetris instead.

[/quote']

fail

[spabs2 0]

Sovereigns post is completely off regarding LOS. 3rd person gives reward without risk. How is being able to see around a corner without risking being spotted ( either peering with your head or using a mirror ) balanced? It's not. End of story.

It is not about realism' date=' it is about balance. This game is not PvP based, but PvP is part of the game. When you have 1 life and the possibility of losing all of your items, why should a defensive camper have an inhuman advantage with 0 risk?

[/quote']

This is the point I'm trying to make -- it's an argument of BALANCE, *not* realism or immersion. Personally, I CAN play with either setting. I don't care; though yes, I'll admit I do PREFER 3rd person (simply because the motion blur and excessive head bobbing -- which yes, I know I can at least disable this -- gives me a severe headache after extended periods, leading me to have to take more frequent breaks). My point was that a majority of people who advocate first person are doing it behind the facade of realism and immersion, yet most of them would quite likely shit themselves if any other real immersion and realism options were added. And not in the good "I-need-to-survive-holy-crap-zombies-at-my-door" shit themselves either. To repeat since so many people failed to comprehend the actual point of my post. If you're going to argue on the side of balance, at least have the balls to say that instead of hiding behind the facade of realism and immersion. You're just doing everyone a disservice by doing that.

Rocket already mentioned this direction as a goal - subtle visual and audio cues for the hud elements. Your stomach will growl when hungry' date=' you'll sound parched et cetera. So in a way the joke is on you[/b']

Joke is on you, actually, since you apparently fail reading comprehension and likely suffer from confirmation bias. In light of that, the above applies to you as well, so read it.

To comment though, I'd PERSONALLY appreciate the subtle visual and audio cues as they are much more immersive. I can agree with this. However, back in line with my first post in this thread, since, as stated, you also seemed to fail at comprehending some of the points there, there are senses for which there are ZERO visual/audio cues. Some of the interoceptive sensations such as hunger and thirst, being injured, etc. might have some nuanced, subtle, immersive cues to take note of. However, the proprioceptive and kinesthetic senses have zero digital analogue. Zero as in none; they don't exist. The closest you could get is maybe a slight camera wobble when you bump into something, but that doesn't even scratch the surface of self-awareness in your physical space. Nor does it simulate self-perception of where your own limbs are in that world as well. The list can go on. ArmA2 does a great job with motion and provides much more option and mobility than a tradtional FPS (should be a given since it's a combat sim, not simply an FPS). However, I'm sure BIS realized the lack of ability to provide digital analogues for some of the trickier (and quite honestly more essential) situational awareness practices, and included a third-person mode for being boots-on-ground, as they definitely had the option to restrict it to vehicles only.

Edit: Grammar. 5am does not do well for my grammar.

[ogdabou 0]

;O

"3rd person is so Hello Kitty" O yeah, in fact, 3rd person is the view my computer as the best graphic performance, it's perfect.

Don't ask me why, i didn't touch any graphic settings.

O, don't forget Trig, this game try to be realistic, this... game, never forget ;).

[FAAmecanic 5]

Not likely. But personally' date=' i would like to see all the servers have the same rules, no 3rd person & no crosshair.

[/quote']

This is not a flame against you so plz dont take it that way...

But why the fuck do people demand we play the game THIER way? If I like to play a game in 3rd person then let me play it that way. If I like cross hairs in game...then let me play that way.

The argument about this being more realistic than that....is just stupid. In real life you have very sensitive positioinal audio (games try to mimic but still not near what you have in life), you have periphial (sp?) vision, you have a "sense" of things around you, first person doesnt have that in games.

All Im saying is if you want the uber 1337 bragging rights...then find a Verteran/hard mode server. If people want to play "creampuff" dayz then let them. I choose in between usually (third person, no cross hairs, no game tags, no white dots showing me where enemy are).