You should have to "zero" a scope when you add it to a weapon

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

IRL, when you add a scope to a weapon for the first time (or even an iron sight for that matter), that sight is not going to be naturally zeroed to the weapon. you always have to go through the zeroing process in order to dial scope's reticule (point of aim) onto where your bullets are landing (point of impact). The chances of you picking up a random scope, putting it on your weapon, and the point of aim and point of impact being already merged are basically, well.....zero.

 

So for realism's sake, and to make acquiring a scope a bigger deal than just picking it up and adding it to your gun, you should have to go through the zeroing process after attaching the new scope to the weapon. I think that would add value in the following ways:

 

   - Players who spend more time/effort/ammo to zero their scope accurately (say by firing a round at a target, then moving to the target each time to see where the hole/damage decal is in relation to where they were aiming) will get better accuracy and longer range out of their scope than the player who just shoots, sees where his splash was, and roughly zeroes the scope in from there.

 

   -It will add value to the scope by making it something the player has put time and effort into making work well, adding incentive to not lose it.

 

The dialogue i think would be fairly simple. Just menu item for "zero scope", then press [whatever] to dial scope up, down, left, right etc.

The issue, however, would be how to deal with the scope being taken off of one weapon, and put on another. Even if an ACOG is taken off of one M4 and put on another, it's not going to carry the zero from the first weapon to the new weapon. It'll be off because of the minute differences between the barrels. Not by much, but enough to not be  adequately accurate. So putting it on the new weapon should reset or randomize the zero. Problem is, ACOGs in particular are quite good at retaining their zero even when removed from a weapon and put back on (so long as the dials weren't messed with). So it may be a pain making a particular scope stay "zeroed" for one rifle, but not on others as it's swapped around, but I'm sure people wouldn't be too upset if a scope loses its zero as soon as its added to a different weapon than the one it was zeroed on. 

 

To add to that, don't add that ArmA range zeroing fucntion to the ACOG. They don't do that. They have bullet drop compensators on their reticules, not range dials.

 

Edited December 8, 2013 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Rage VG 4033]

Whilst I think that'd be incredibly cool, I personally think it'd also be incredibly tedious to have to do that every time we pick up a gun. I'd probably get annoyed with it eventually.

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

You could do it hastily in a few seconds by just shooting at something in the distance, seeing your splash, and dialing it in and get reasonable accuracy out of it. Or, if you really wanted to get long distance sniper accuracy, you'd have to go the extra mile. I think that would be reasonable. It would also make the scope into something you really don't want to lose, and adds some personalization to the kit.

 

Maybe if that's too much, make the scope reasonably accurate by default, but make the player work for the precision accuracy if they want it?

 

[Edit] Oh, as for picking up a gun that already has a scope on it, that's a different story. You can reasonably expect that a gun with a scope on it would already have been zeroed by it's original owner. In most cases they would be, so that's how it should be in the game for guns with scopes already attached. I'm talking strictly about scopes found on the ground not attached to weapons.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Ham_Sandwich27

[colekern 1364]

You could do it hastily in a few seconds by just shooting at something in the distance, seeing your splash, and dialing it in and get reasonable accuracy out of it. Or, if you really wanted to get long distance sniper accuracy, you'd have to go the extra mile. I think that would be reasonable. It would also make the scope into something you really don't want to lose, and adds some personalization to the kit.

 

Maybe if that's too much, make the scope reasonably accurate by default, but make the player work for the precision accuracy if they want it?

 

[Edit] Oh, as for picking up a gun that already has a scope on it, that's a different story. You can reasonably expect that a gun with a scope on it would already have been zeroed by it's original owner. In most cases they would be, so that's how it should be in the game for guns with scopes already attached. I'm talking strictly about scopes found on the ground not attached to weapons.

 

 

Perhaps there could be a laser-sighting kit that spawns at military locations? Or maybe there could just a be a a single button to zero your gun after firing a few shots.

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

A laser boresight would work, but they should only get you so far (as in RL). Any laser borsight should be better than rought/hasty zeroing, but not as good as precision manual zeroing. Even a laser isn't completely accurate for zeroing because it doesn't account for the minute imperfections in the barrel.

 

As for the single button zeroing option, I really think it would be cooler if players had to exercise some skill and precision when zeroing manually. I just really like the idea of the player who has the skill and invests the time/ammo to zero precisely ending up with a more accurate weapon than the guy who doesn't, just as in real life. It would be a real pay-off for putting in the extra effort. Just imagine getting into a sniper shootout, winning, and thinking to yourself "That sucker should have taken the time to zero his rifle properly before getting into a shootout with me.". And imagine being the loser, and thinking "next time I'm going to zero my scope more accurately than the other guy".

Edited December 8, 2013 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

...it would also add another level of skill required for players who consider themselves snipers. The good sniper would actually have to have put some effort into his craft, and be skilled at zeroing to be a good sniper rather than every KoS kiddie picking up a rifle and automatically becoming Vasily Zaytsev. It might even put a dent in the overall KoS attitude, being that not everyone will magically become a sniper the second they pick up a scope.

 

and with the AZ/EL zeroing function, you could even implement windage and other factors to make sniping more realistic and harder.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Ham_Sandwich27

[-Gews- 7443]

In ArmA 2and ArmA 3, there is no zeroing point of impact, apart from up and down. Your scope will never be knocked about and change point of impact. Ideally this would be included.Zeroing would be good as long as it is completely separate from "zeroing".

 

For example, pick up a scope, mount it on your rifle... and the game assigns a slightly random value for angle in the y and x axis. When you shoot, you discover it shoots slightly left and high, so you adjust accordingly, done. I don't know how it would work when players bash their rifle on something and screw up the zeroing. Or when using a crappy scope + mount on a powerful rifle whose recoil makes it lose zero after a while.

 

 

However this means we would have finer scope adjustments than increments of 100m. And once the rifle was "spot on" in the x-axis, the only thing remaining would be elevation for different ranges. Setting a sight for a particular range just means launching the bullet at the required angle, while the scope/sight picture remains on target.

 

I think this would be a good addition.

 

At 600 meters (in-game) a 7.62mm sniper rifle has a bullet drop of about 3.1 meters. So to hit at 600m, you will have to aim the barrel upwards at about 0.295 degrees. On the scope, that would mean dialing to 17.7 MOA elevation, or 5.15 mils. If your scope has 1/4 MOA or .1 mil clicks, that means 71 clicks or 51.5 clicks respectively.

 

Take the scope off the railed 7.62x51mm rifle and put it on a railed 7.62x39mm, and it is still adjusted to 17.7 MOA (ignoring stuff like the slope of the base and rings, etc, etc).

 

So will it still hit at 600m? No, because the 7.62x39mm has more bullet drop. Firing at an angle of 17.7 MOA it will hit at about 345 meters. In-game you need about 50.7 MOA elevation to reach 600m with the 7.62x39.

 

 

So people would simply need to learn elevation values for a few different calibers. Like ACE. I would like that, because I don't like how you can instantly swap scopes in ArmA 3 and have them work pretty much perfectly. In fact, if their zeroing system worked as intended (it doesn't), you could take the scope off the CheyTac, put it on an assault rifle and start making shots at 2,000+ meters, which is absurd.

 

 

 

 

tl;dr my contribution to this thread is that I would like scopes to use angles instead of ranges.

 

And I know some scopes, PSO-1 for example, have ranges on the dials, so that should be represented in game on the UI - but those ranges just correspond to elevation angles, so the range it says on the dial would only be "correct" when used on a 7.62x54mm. ;)

[Rage VG 4033]

You could do it hastily in a few seconds by just shooting at something in the distance, seeing your splash, and dialing it in and get reasonable accuracy out of it. Or, if you really wanted to get long distance sniper accuracy, you'd have to go the extra mile. I think that would be reasonable. It would also make the scope into something you really don't want to lose, and adds some personalization to the kit.

 

Maybe if that's too much, make the scope reasonably accurate by default, but make the player work for the precision accuracy if they want it?

 

[Edit] Oh, as for picking up a gun that already has a scope on it, that's a different story. You can reasonably expect that a gun with a scope on it would already have been zeroed by it's original owner. In most cases they would be, so that's how it should be in the game for guns with scopes already attached. I'm talking strictly about scopes found on the ground not attached to weapons.

I still think it's going to be a bit difficult to do, and get irritating eventually, however if someone were to make an extreme realism mod I would 110% want this in it.

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

However this means we would have finer scope adjustments than increments of 100m. And once the rifle was "spot on" in the x-axis, the only thing remaining would be elevation for different ranges. Setting a sight for a particular range just means launching the bullet at the required angle, while the scope/sight picture remains on target.

 

This is why I feel the AZ/EL zeroing function should be a separate dialogue from the current ArmA2 100m increment range adjustments dials. As you said, some scoped have dials that specifically adjust for range. Those should remain as they are (for scopes that actually have them that is). To actually zero it for accuracy, you should have to go into a completely different process.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

I still think it's going to be a bit difficult to do, and get irritating eventually, however if someone were to make an extreme realism mod I would 110% want this in it.

 

That's just it though. As Gews points out, you could do this quickly by shooting, seeing your strike is off, clicking a few times to bring it on to you point of aim and be good to go after 3 or 4 rounds. I think most people would wouldn't have too ahrd a time with that. Ten seconds and 3-4 rounds. But for those who want extreme precision because they want to snipe at long distances, or be able to get first round hits on small targets, they're going to have to put in the effort.

[Rage VG 4033]

That's just it though. As Gews points out, you could do this quickly by shooting, seeing your strike is off, clicking a few times to bring it on to you point of aim and be good to go after 3 or 4 rounds. I think most people would wouldn't have too ahrd a time with that. Ten seconds and 3-4 rounds. But for those who want extreme precision because they want to snipe at long distances, or be able to get first round hits on small targets, they're going to have to put in the effort.

I suppose so. I guess I just don't look forward to the idea of having to fire off a few rounds to adjust, as it'd alert everything nearby.

[Korsbaek 1778]

With more scarce ammo, no one would actually zero their scope.

 

It would simply be a waste of bullets.

[terminal_boy 860]

Now, I like a nice level of realism in games, but this would be a step to far.

Some fine adjustment makes sense, but boresighting followed by check shots at 25m and then 100m before zeroing at desired range is too much.

Let us not forget that DayZ allows us to swap engines, wheels and even main rotor assemblies between vehicles without any alignment or adjusted being required..

[weparo 613]

We need that! Seriously, I will be somewhat disappointed with the SA if we don't get this further down the line. Want a way to stop KoS? Implement this. I can already see all the CoD kiddies leaving... yes! Sure it takes a couple rounds, but hey, that's how it goes. And after all, you can just use your rifle without the zeroing and hit targets up to 100m fairly well I think. But for all of these "1337-snipers" we'll see how 1337 you really are.

 

For those concerned with making too much noise during zeroing : Go to some place where no one can hear you. Hide in the woods.

[SFRGaming 718]

Let's go back to some of Dean Hall's Devblogs. "I really would like authenticity, rather than realism." This is why this idea will probably never be in the game. Yes, IRL if you change sights, you will most likely have to sight it in (not zero, thats a different terminology). Although, that's real life, not DayZ. Dean wants authenticity...AUTHENTICITY. While I praise you for this idea as it holds good potential for games that require it. DayZ is not one of them.

[SFRGaming 718]

In ArmA 2and ArmA 3, there is no zeroing point of impact, apart from up and down. Your scope will never be knocked about and change point of impact. Ideally this would be included.Zeroing would be good as long as it is completely separate from "zeroing".

 

For example, pick up a scope, mount it on your rifle... and the game assigns a slightly random value for angle in the y and x axis. When you shoot, you discover it shoots slightly left and high, so you adjust accordingly, done. I don't know how it would work when players bash their rifle on something and screw up the zeroing. Or when using a crappy scope + mount on a powerful rifle whose recoil makes it lose zero after a while.

 

 

However this means we would have finer scope adjustments than increments of 100m. And once the rifle was "spot on" in the x-axis, the only thing remaining would be elevation for different ranges. Setting a sight for a particular range just means launching the bullet at the required angle, while the scope/sight picture remains on target.

 

I think this would be a good addition.

 

At 600 meters (in-game) a 7.62mm sniper rifle has a bullet drop of about 3.1 meters. So to hit at 600m, you will have to aim the barrel upwards at about 0.295 degrees. On the scope, that would mean dialing to 17.7 MOA elevation, or 5.15 mils. If your scope has 1/4 MOA or .1 mil clicks, that means 71 clicks or 51.5 clicks respectively.

 

Take the scope off the railed 7.62x51mm rifle and put it on a railed 7.62x39mm, and it is still adjusted to 17.7 MOA (ignoring stuff like the slope of the base and rings, etc, etc).

 

So will it still hit at 600m? No, because the 7.62x39mm has more bullet drop. Firing at an angle of 17.7 MOA it will hit at about 345 meters. In-game you need about 50.7 MOA elevation to reach 600m with the 7.62x39.

 

 

So people would simply need to learn elevation values for a few different calibers. Like ACE. I would like that, because I don't like how you can instantly swap scopes in ArmA 3 and have them work pretty much perfectly. In fact, if their zeroing system worked as intended (it doesn't), you could take the scope off the CheyTac, put it on an assault rifle and start making shots at 2,000+ meters, which is absurd.

 

 

 

 

tl;dr my contribution to this thread is that I would like scopes to use angles instead of ranges.

 

And I know some scopes, PSO-1 for example, have ranges on the dials, so that should be represented in game on the UI - but those ranges just correspond to elevation angles, so the range it says on the dial would only be "correct" when used on a 7.62x54mm. ;)

And just to be clear, the bullet drop is also affected by the amount of gun powder or "Grain" in the cartridge. It's not always determined by the length of the initial round. 

[-Gews- 7443]

Let us not forget that DayZ allows us to swap engines, wheels and even main rotor assemblies between vehicles without any alignment or adjusted being required..

But why? Instead of engines, why not just have "carburetor", "radiator hose", etc. Repair the existing engine instead of carrying a 400-lb engine around.

And just to be clear, the bullet drop is also affected by the amount of gun powder or "Grain" in the cartridge. It's not always determined by the length of the initial round.

I'm aware...

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

Well, to be fair, it's "engine parts" you're carrying around, not the engines themselves. main rotors on the other hand, yeah, that's a bit silly, but point is to make you put some effort into acquiring a potent capability, which is why I like the zeroing idea. As it stand now with the SA, if you find a scope, you're automatically a sniper. I think that's a little too easy.

[EngineerZ 46]

Wow I really like this idea! I want the game to be realistic and difficult. It would keep all the kiddies away and reduce kos. You really need skill and experience and effort to get the perfect aim for your gun.

[AP_Norris 1017]

Is realistic, I do like it a lot.

I do have one thing though.

If iron sight could always be perfectly zeroed when picking up a new gun that'd be great.

It would then be something to do when you do happen to find a scope and not something to do before you can use the gun you just picked up.

[AP_Norris 1017]

We need that! Seriously, I will be somewhat disappointed with the SA if we don't get this further down the line. Want a way to stop KoS? Implement this. I can already see all the CoD kiddies leaving... yes! Sure it takes a couple rounds, but hey, that's how it goes. And after all, you can just use your rifle without the zeroing and hit targets up to 100m fairly well I think. But for all of these "1337-snipers" we'll see how 1337 you really are.

 

For those concerned with making too much noise during zeroing : Go to some place where no one can hear you. Hide in the woods.

Can you make bullet holes in trees though? I didn't think you could in the mod.

[kingochaos 131]

I do like the idea. I doubt it will happen, it would take a fair bit o work.

 

 Ive always bore sighted bolt actions just by pulling the bolt out, sighting down the bore, and adjusting the cross hair to whats in the middle o what i see in the middle o the bore (a flower or what ever happens to be handy, when im sighting) and i find this gets the x axis lined up just fine... if its not when your shooting, its because your pulling the rifle when you fire... so bore sighting, is enough to get a rifle shooting well enough to hit a target as big as a person out to a couple o hundred meters any way.. (depending on the calibre from there, you can just adjust for drop, without needing to fire a single round.) 

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

Yeah, boresighting will definitely get you on paper out to a reasonable distance. Someone earlier suggested implementing a laser boresight loot item for this reason.

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

I do like the idea. I doubt it will happen, it would take a fair bit o work.

 

 

I don't know how much work it would really require. They already have the elevation/range adjustment function in the scopes at present (in 100m increments - which is more complicated than simple angle adjustments, given exponential bullet drop). It would simply be a matter of deleting the exponent function and changing the input increments to simple angle adjustments, and then copying that function for adjustments on the X axis. Most of the work to create this feature is already done. Just some very minor adjustments to the existing system would need to be made.

[NotRedd 51]

i like this a lot, i mean in the mod its extremely easy to be good with a DMR simply because no zeroing and what not. if you had to zero every single scope you had on X and Y axis then i think that would be amazing. iron sights as well for this. i mean, you wont need to really for iron sights, your not really shooting that far with them. but if you wanted to, you could.

 

also it stops people from being snipers from 800 meters or even taking shots at you. they would actually have to be amazing to score a hit.