Aim in Standalone

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

Alt will move ya gun when scoped without moving the body, its just a limited cone of vision that you can move within. If neg mouse accel dosent effect that then I would say the engine has perfect balance, when not aiming you will turn slower, when aiming you can have your snappy movements by using alt.

 

It is not realistic to be able to spin a gun around even just 180 as fast as we can on common fps games. I really like this feature of the arma engine....even though I will admit I only learnt about it today, from this topic. But after going in game and seeing whats going on I gotta say I think most shooters should have this added as a feature. Adds to immersion, and lets not forget arma/daayz are tactical games. Each ambush should be planned and thought out so that snappy movements aren't required.

 

But what if I get snuck up on and want to spin round in a split second to pop the guy behind me.....that is as far from reality as possible. If someone sneaks up on you it is going to take longer that 1 sec to level the gun at them. This isn't a "for the masses" easy to pick up and use FPS. Its a simulator, and I strongly feel this feature should stay :P

 

Without any offense, this is the reason I wanted to keep the discussion to experienced pc players. Your considerations make theoretical sense, but please read what I wrote about interface devices. 

 You can't think this as a" real world laws apply thing", due to interface simplification.

[Karmaterror 982]

Man...I am an experienced pc player.....does 16 years of pc gaming and rigs as far back as win 3.1 (hell iv even still got my old einstien) qualify me??

 

Your missing my point, your suggestion is in essence dumming down the sim so that people used to a completely synthetic feel will be at home. It strives for realism so anything adding to it should stay. What you are saying is that you want it to behave the same way every time....so you can use muscle memory.

 

The simple fact is if you stay composed and move the mouse at a reasonable speed this hardly effects your aiming....if you panic and try to do a twitch shot you will fail. I think that's what the game is trying to accomplish with this mechanic, remain calm and composed during combat.

[terrvik 2409]

I would love to participate in this discussion but I own a console so I am a worthless human being whose opinion is worth dirt.

 

I also enjoy playing on my console every once in a while and I have fun with casual games ever so often. Should I just kill myself right now, or am I too ignorant and uninformed to even manage that?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Without any offense, this is the reason I wanted to keep the discussion to experienced pc players. Your considerations make theoretical sense, but please read what I wrote about interface devices. 

 You can't think this as a" real world laws apply thing", due to interface simplification.

 

 

Congratulations on being the biggest twat on the forums.  All hail the PC master race.  CoD is SATAN CoD is Satan.  I played CoD yesterday with my brother when I got back from uni.  *puts guns to head* I don't deserve to type in your thread.  

 

 

You have a point that Arma 2's controls are different but that is the point.  It isn't supposed to feel like other games and it is supposed to take some practice.  Arma 3 improves it and from what people have said, DayZ improves control too.  What is there left to discuss teh1fremun

Edited November 27, 2013 by Vindicator

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

Man...I am an experienced pc player.....does 16 years of pc gaming and rigs as far back as win 3.1 (hell iv even still got my old einstien) qualify me??

 

Your missing my point, your suggestion is in essence dumming down the sim so that people used to a completely synthetic feel will be at home. It strives for realism so anything adding to it should stay. What you are saying is that you want it to behave the same way every time....so you can use muscle memory.

 

The simple fact is if you stay composed and move the mouse at a reasonable speed this hardly effects your aiming....if you panic and try to do a twitch shot you will fail. I think that's what the game is trying to accomplish with this mechanic, remain calm and composed during combat.

 

I admit that there might be some misunderstanding, by synthetic feel you mean games like counter-strike? Can I ask you why you never came across neg acell in all these years? Can I assume you focused more on other aspects of pc gaming rather than the mouse input?

 

 

I would love to participate in this discussion but I own a console so I am a worthless human being whose opinion is worth dirt.

 

I also enjoy playing on my console every once in a while and I have fun with casual games ever so often. Should I just kill myself right now, or am I too ignorant and uninformed to even manage that?

 

 

There's nothing wrong with being casual or console gamers, but you do agree that your opinions on aiming in pc games are not formed as much as the ones of somebody who spent time and energy on the subject, do you? 

I don't go about talking football teams after having watched a couple of matches with some one who spent years following the championships, like my opinion on players is more or as valid as his. 

I'm trying to prevent as many people I can from  coming out saying "oh but guns weigh in real life, that should be felt in the game as well" as there is much, MUCH more to that when balancing controls in a videogame, specially for pc.

 

 

Congratulations on being the biggest twat on the forums.  All hail the PC master race.  CoD is SATAN CoD is Satan.  I played CoD yesterday with my brother when I got back from uni.  *puts guns to head* I don't deserve to type in your thread.  

 

 

You have a point that Arma 2's controls are different but that is the point.  It isn't supposed to feel like other games and it is supposed to take some practice.  Arma 3 improves it and from what people have said, DayZ improves control too.  What is there left to discuss teh1fremun

 

 

Oh I was waiting for someone like you :)

You are the type of person I believe should stay away from any thread that hopes of being useful.

Wasted enough words already.

Edited November 27, 2013 by the1freeMan

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Oh I was waiting for someone like you :)

You are the type of person I believe should stay away from any thread that hopes of being useful.

Wasted enough words already.

 

 

1467 post and zero warnings.  Clearly everyone hates what I have to say here.  I am a massive troll

 

EDIT:  I don't care that you have few post.  New posters can add to the discussion but you are sounding arrogant.  

Edited November 27, 2013 by Vindicator

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

 

 

Sorry for the rushed answers yesterday, let me explain what I mean better.

 

Negative acceleration does not effectively give a max turning speed. It limits mouse moving speed, affecting low/mid sensitivity players only. I repeat, high dpi/sens players will not be affected (by neg accel alone, arma2 has positive accel and a maximum body turn speed to take into account).

Think about Far cry 3, that is an fps game with that implemented, and it failed miserably as a multiplayer game. If you tried playing it and have a 360 of more than 20cm it will basically be unplayable.

 

The fact is that many people playing counter-strike games, where "flawless" aim is a necessity, usually spend much time setting up their system/games for maximum mouse responsiveness, look for mice that ALLOW fast hand movements (not having sensor related accel), which are rare on the market which is investing in the "easy road" of high dpi. They train hard to get the mouse cursor to be a natural extension of the hand.

 

Giving an arbitrary (not engine necessary) in game IPS limit is technically ridiculous.

 

Arma 2 doesn't only have NEGATIVE accel but POSITIVE as well. Go in game, aim at a reference point and spin an extremely slow 360° (like half cm/ second mouse movement). Then come back the other way faster (around 2-3 cm/s), the character will spin much FASTER. That is positive accel.

If you go over a certain limit of cm/s the in game camera will stop moving (an probably point at the ground). That is neg accel, and again it affects only low sens/dpi players.

 

Messing like that with the mouse input of some one who spent time, energy and money to not be technologically limited is pretty much like BLATANTLY THROWING ALL HIS RESEARCH AND WORK AWAY.

 

What I'm trying to get straight is that being able to flick a 360 is of minor importance  compared to having a responsive input, that lets you correct your aim without "mudding up" the mouse feel, that gives actually a more natural and "AUTHENTIC" feel when controlling the gun.

This is because, repeat again, The control over your digital body is done by a simplified and approximate system, awareness through screen an speakers is not the same as real life, EVEN with arma's alt turn head. Frame rates usually don't allow quick head pans to provide accurate enough information quickly as in real life, specially in cluttered situations, it's good but still a game.

And considering the type of game, 360 turns are actually useless!

 

The dyslexi (or however you write it) 180 flick pistol shot is perfectly possible IRL (with a pistol), It would necessitate a huge experience gap between the soldiers (like a 20 year vet vs a first timer, or just someone with balls of steel vs a nervous type) but matter of fact is that defending from a gun to the back is taught in self defense, highly unlikely but physically possible.

 

 Flicking 360 (losing lots of precision and being tactical nonsense if you aim at shooting someone within that movement) may not look authentic but with current, everyday use, interface technology, it seems like a necessary pain since better (or more authentic) ways to control camera movement with the mouse have been tried but have all FAILED.

 

A maximum turning speed independent from mouse speed would rather make sense, but most probably it would interfere with "inside fov" corrections as well, making it not viable as an option.

 

Anyway, both Bohemia Interactive and Dean Hall came to the conclusion that having non accelerated mouse input is the best way to go. I hope I gave you some decent and understandable reasons why.

Edited November 29, 2013 by the1freeMan

[Karmaterror 982]

Arma 2 doesn't only have NEGATIVE accel but POSITIVE as well. Go in game, aim at a reference point and spin an extremely slow 360° (like half cm/ second mouse movement). Then come back the other way faster (around 2-3 cm/s), the character will spin much FASTER. That is positive accel.

If you go over a certain limit of cm/s the in game camera will stop moving (an probably point at the ground). That is neg accel, and again it affects only low sens/dpi players.

 

 

I don't know why it only effects low sensitivity players....mines maxed out and I still get the effect of slowed rotation when I try to do a quick movement, so it effects high sensativily players also. I have never seen it point at the ground....no matter how fast you try to turn.

 

I still like the idea of this system and when I tested in A3 I was kinda disappointed that its so easy to flick round....but at the same time I wouldn't have noticed at all if I hand read here and gone off to check. Maybe im the only one but I think others would want it to stay aswell. Your argument is solid, and apparently the game peeps agree, but I really don't think they should scrap this system....improve on it.

 

Maybe a system where your rotation is slowed after a specific amount of degrees turned. Like...you can tun 90 no prob....but after 90 its 10%slower to allow for footwork required to make the turn. Then once you hit or pass 110 or something its quicker again for the next 90. That would give a snappy feel but a feeling of slowing, twice (or 3 times) every 360 to adjust your footing. 

Edited November 29, 2013 by Karmaterror

[enforcer1975 1111]

In the end it's just someone whining around like the princess on the pea...the old players from the OFP times are either stupid to not say anything or the young kids are just spoiled because i have not heard a lot of complaints during those days.

[mercules 1290]

Sorry for the rushed answers yesterday, let me explain what I mean better.

 

Negative acceleration does not effectively give a max turning speed. It limits mouse moving speed, affecting low/mid sensitivity players only. I repeat, high dpi/sens players will not be affected (by neg accel alone, arma2 has positive accel and a maximum body turn speed to take into account).

Think about Far cry 3, that is an fps game with that implemented, and it failed miserably as a multiplayer game. If you tried playing it and have a 360 of more than 20cm it will basically be unplayable.

 

The fact is that many people playing counter-strike games, where "flawless" aim is a necessity, usually spend much time setting up their system/games for maximum mouse responsiveness, look for mice that ALLOW fast hand movements (not having sensor related accel), which are rare on the market which is investing in the "easy road" of high dpi. They train hard to get the mouse cursor to be a natural extension of the hand.

 

Giving an arbitrary (not engine necessary) in game IPS limit is technically ridiculous.

 

Arma 2 doesn't only have NEGATIVE accel but POSITIVE as well. Go in game, aim at a reference point and spin an extremely slow 360° (like half cm/ second mouse movement). Then come back the other way faster (around 2-3 cm/s), the character will spin much FASTER. That is positive accel.

If you go over a certain limit of cm/s the in game camera will stop moving (an probably point at the ground). That is neg accel, and again it affects only low sens/dpi players.

 

Messing like that with the mouse input of some one who spent time, energy and money to not be technologically limited is pretty much like BLATANTLY THROWING ALL HIS RESEARCH AND WORK AWAY.

 

What I'm trying to get straight is that being able to flick a 360 is of minor importance  compared to having a responsive input, that lets you correct your aim without "mudding up" the mouse feel, that gives actually a more natural and "AUTHENTIC" feel when controlling the gun.

This is because, repeat again, The control over your digital body is done by a simplified and approximate system, awareness through screen an speakers is not the same as real life, EVEN with arma's alt turn head. Frame rates usually don't allow quick head pans to provide accurate enough information quickly as in real life, specially in cluttered situations, it's good but still a game.

And considering the type of game, 360 turns are actually useless!

 

The dyslexi (or however you write it) 180 flick pistol shot is perfectly possible IRL (with a pistol), It would necessitate a huge experience gap between the soldiers (like a 20 year vet vs a first timer, or just someone with balls of steel vs a nervous type) but matter of fact is that defending from a gun to the back is taught in self defense, highly unlikely but physically possible.

 

 Flicking 360 (losing lots of precision and being tactical nonsense if you aim at shooting someone within that movement) may not look authentic but with current, everyday use, interface technology, it seems like a necessary pain since better (or more authentic) ways to control camera movement with the mouse have been tried but have all FAILED.

 

A maximum turning speed independent from mouse speed would rather make sense, but most probably it would interfere with "inside fov" corrections as well, making it not viable as an option.

 

Anyway, both Bohemia Interactive and Dean Hall came to the conclusion that having non accelerated mouse input is the best way to go. I hope I gave you some decent and understandable reasons why.

 

The answer can be summed in language you will easily understand from years of PC Gaming. 

 

"Learn to play... Newb!"

This game handles different than other games. GOOD PC gamers learn to play the game they are playing and adapt to it. BAD PC gamers put the blame for lack of ability to adapt on the game engine/design. 

[doctorbadsign 645]

In my opinion DayZ would be s**t if you didn't have to learn and get used to how to handle a gun in the game.

Maybe I am a crappy player (I don't really care) but for me learning how to handle guns in the Arma II engine has been a slow process that has evolved my gameplay as I've gained more confidence with them. There are still situations that make me panic whilst shooting due to my lack of confidence with a weapon and it is moments like this that make DayZ. 

 

I'd feel nothing whilst playing DayZ if I could confidently handle any situation with a twitch of my wrist. I don't want that, for me DayZ is all about those panic-stricken 'am I going to make it out of this?' moments and the aiming system is a big part of that. I hope it is not changed too much with the SA.

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

The answer can be summed in language you will easily understand from years of PC Gaming. 

 

"Learn to play... Newb!"

This game handles different than other games. GOOD PC gamers learn to play the game they are playing and adapt to it. BAD PC gamers put the blame for lack of ability to adapt on the game engine/design.

 

Don't get confused, being able to adapt to shitty control and LIKING shitty control are two different things..

 

 

In my opinion DayZ would be s**t if you didn't have to learn and get used to how to handle a gun in the game.

 

Maybe I am a crappy player (I don't really care) but for me learning how to handle guns in the Arma II engine has been a slow process that has evolved my gameplay as I've gained more confidence with them. There are still situations that make me panic whilst shooting due to my lack of confidence with a weapon and it is moments like this that make DayZ. 

 

I'd feel nothing whilst playing DayZ if I could confidently handle any situation with a twitch of my wrist. I don't want that, for me DayZ is all about those panic-stricken 'am I going to make it out of this?' moments and the aiming system is a big part of that. I hope it is not changed too much with the SA.

 

I've been playing arma2 way before OA and the dayz mod, I've completed 100% armory at least 2 times and the three main campaigns 2 or 3 times..

I knew all the weapons by heart before anybody ever played DayZ.

 

The only way to confidently handle situations is through careful planning, good tactics and positions, ability to improvise AND good gun control.

You don't live live long with aim only, not even in faster games.

 

Ballistics, weapon recoil, sway, damage model, move penalty, Arma 3 even has accuracy loss if you move the mouse too fast.

That's what you are learning, not the inconsistent input system.

 

Enough said, the option to remove acceleration in SA is already there in the menu waiting to be implemented.