First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[sarkasm0 109]

Always been a 1st person player, and I also been waiting for this discussion for years....

[dsi24 227]

Just got done playing on a 1st person only ArmA3 Altis server. Most intense firefights ever since you couldn't exploit third person to see where everyone around you was, you had to actually look and risk giving up your own position. Being shot at by someone in DayZ is never that terrifying, you just hide and enter third person and look for muzzle flashes.

[Wazza 274]

Sometimes choice isn't always a good thing.

 

Look at the chumps who run our countries for example.

I much prefer a dictatorship.. lol

[SMLE 39]

Just got done playing on a 1st person only ArmA3 Altis server. Most intense firefights ever since you couldn't exploit third person to see where everyone around you was, you had to actually look and risk giving up your own position. Being shot at by someone in DayZ is never that terrifying, you just hide and enter third person and look for muzzle flashes.

See it works if you like 1st person view play on the server that suits and the rest can play on their 3rd person server .

Choice is good

[dsi24 227]

See it works if you like 1st person view play on the server that suits and the rest can play on their 3rd person server .

Choice is good

Yeah, too bad when people have choice they choose the easiest thing. So 3rd person has to go, it's easily exploitable and those easy exploits make the game easymode.

[SMLE 39]

Yeah, too bad when people have choice they choose the easiest thing. So 3rd person has to go, it's easily exploitable and those easy exploits make the game easymode.

You had a choice and you didn't take the easy option at least give others the same choice its no skin off your nose .

choice is good

[Mullraugh 1151]

I can't wait to see what the devs do with this.

[iashford 73]

Yeah, too bad when people have choice they choose the easiest thing. So 3rd person has to go, it's easily exploitable and those easy exploits make the game easymode.

 

 

Not exactly true... there's clearly a lot of people who want to play on FPS servers only.

Eitherway, at least with options you're not forcing every to play JUST your way. Which I kind of find selfish. A lot of people who play with people using 'exploits' like third person generally dont get clear cut options to stay away from them with options like first person only servers. Consider yourself lucky and grateful for being given the option to stay away from all those 'exploits'.

Edited August 27, 2013 by I.Ash

[dsi24 227]

You had a choice and you didn't take the easy option at least give others the same choice its no skin off your nose .

choice is good

Yeah, choice is good, that's why all those 100 helicopters|spawn with weapons and food servers are awesome for the game, right?

 

Not exactly true... there's clearly a lot of people who want to play on FPS servers only.

Eitherway, at least with options you're not forcing every to play JUST your way. Which I kind of find selfish. A lot of people who play with people using 'exploits' like third person generally dont get clear cut options to stay away from them with options like first person only servers. Consider yourself lucky and grateful for being given the option to stay away from all those 'exploits'.

TBH I think its selfish that you people want to keep any and all PvP action down in the gutters because you want to stare at your character's ass/cheat. There are almost no first person servers left for DayZ because third person makes the game so easy.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I wonder who here that fails to see the glaring issues with the current 3rd person cam also plays on servers with nameplates enabled?Using nameplates brings up many of the same issues.  Hover your mouse over a bush and watch as your enemies position is magically revealed!  

 

But it's OK because we can all do it!

 

Surely people that don't like the nameplates because they can see how they effect gameplay negatively must be able to see why some of us also think the 3rd person camera currently brings up the same issues.  I'd be genuinely interested to hear from someone that enjoys using the 3rd person cam to look around corners etc. but considers nameplates detrimental to gameplay because to me they're both as bad as eachother.

 

At least we know nameplates will have no place in the SA so that's a start I guess.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

Yeah, choice is good, that's why all those 100 helicopters|spawn with weapons and food servers are awesome for the game, right?

 

TBH I think its selfish that you people want to keep any and all PvP action down in the gutters because you want to stare at your character's ass/cheat. There are almost no first person servers left for DayZ because third person makes the game so easy.

 

You (and many hipsters/elitists) seem to miss the obvious.

 

As you said, dayz universe is full of 3dp on servers and those servers are full of people whereas there is only an handful of 3dp off servers with a few people.

 

So the community likes those servers much more (9-10:1 ratio?) than 1st person only. The community is made by tens (or hundreds) of thousands of players.

 

Why they like it more? Neither you, or me or any of the 1st person hipsters have the answer. Many believe to know it but honestly if someone believes he/she can fathom the mind of tens of thousands of people and understand their thinking is either better than Einstein or an abysmal fool...

 

Bottom Line: the majority plays 3dp on, is happy about it and does not request any tweak. Why? Who cares!

 

Yes, some servers are full of vehicles and have extra scripts and custom starting loadouts. Personally I do not play on those because I like vanilla more but if someone wants to play on those and have fun, so be it. 

 

Who am I, or you or anyone else to dictate arrogantly how others should play a game to have fun?

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. to 1st person hipsters only: I have tried 3dp off and I do not like it. Hence my decision is made. Play on 3dp on servers where I can switch as I like and HAVE FUN

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

For anyone that missed it here's Deans recent thought's on the 1st vs 3rd debate:

 

Q: What about first/third person?

We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on.

 

Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.

It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on.

 

Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..

 I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand?

 

Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etc

From a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation.

 

Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?

Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level.

 

Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game. 

I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing.

 

Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location...

Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending. 

 

Tldr;  He likes the 3rd person cam and can see it has a place in the game but he's also very aware of how it can effect gameplay in a negative way so is looking at ways of dealing with that issue.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[Jamz 253]

I wonder who here that fails to see the glaring issues with the current 3rd person cam also plays on servers with nameplates enabled?Using nameplates brings up many of the same issues.  Hover your mouse over a bush and watch as your enemies position is magically revealed!  

 

But it's OK because we can all do it!

 

Surely people that don't like the nameplates because they can see how they effect gameplay negatively must be able to see why some of us also think the 3rd person camera currently brings up the same issues.  I'd be genuinely interested to hear from someone that enjoys using the 3rd person cam to look around corners etc. but considers nameplates detrimental to gameplay because to me they're both as bad as eachother.

 

At least we know nameplates will have no place in the SA so that's a start I guess.

 

Agreed, nameplates definitley have no place in the game as far as I'm concerned, they nullify the natural camouflage aspect which works so well in DayZ (it was a big problem in BF1942/Forgotten Hope). That would be something that I would vote to remove as they are unnecessary IMO. I think the third person thing is different though, I've read all comments on both threads and many suggestions I think are good (split servers by view, zoom in when prone, even remove third person with the provison that first person is reworked to feel more natural). For instance, nameplates wouldn't be such a problem if say they were only visible when you were within five metres of a player and in direct line of sight.

 

I'm personally only against TPV's complete removal with no thought to consequences, which some here seem to consider acceptable. I'd like to see perhaps a number of these fixes rolled out as patches one after another month by month and then let the community vote on which fix they wanted to keep. I know it doesn't instantly solve the problem like removal of TPV might, but it might just not alienate a large proportion of the playerbase quite so much.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jamz

[SMLE 39]

I agree nameplates = bad so I choose not to play on servers that have them , I will not demand that people who like nameplates be hung drawn and quarted for playing that way :)

 

choice is good

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I agree nameplates = bad so I choose not to play on servers that have them , I will not demand that people who like nameplates be hung drawn and quarted for playing that way :)

 

choice is good

Not always, please refer to the fat kid analogy a few pages back.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

 

For anyone that missed it here's Deans recent thought's on the 1st vs 3rd debate:

 

Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?

Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level.

 

So Dean is already saying that 3rd person is a feature in DayZ. I don't care about 3rd person in alpha or beta that much because it's bug hunting fest and 3rd person is good for that.

 

Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game. 

I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing.

 

They should make a seperate character view like in the gear view that we could watch any time, see where we've been shot, able rotate the character and admire our clothes and maybe display some more information. That way we wouldn't need to check in third person where we've been shot. Also displaying more red on the bottom of the screen for a 0,5s would indicate that we've been shot from the back just like in many fps games. Not showing a direct arrow of course. Bleeding should be showed better for FPV players because in the Standalone we don't have the icon to show us bleeding. Again some effect on the screen and we're good to go.

Just some ideas to improve FPV players so we really don't need to use TPV. Dean just made it sound that TPV is a feature that without we couldn't be aware of things in our character and not an option so I had to respond.

Edited August 27, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[tommes 331]

Who am I, or you or anyone else to dictate arrogantly how others should play a game to have fun?

If you want to play Soccer, Football, Basketball or whatever competitively you will have to oblige to the respective rules. Those were made to ensure fair and decent gameplay for all sides involved. They are dictated arrogantly upon you so EVERYBODY can have fun. Not just you.

[SMLE 39]

If you want to play Soccer, Football, Basketball or whatever competitively you will have to oblige to the respective rules. Those were made to ensure fair and decent gameplay for all sides involved. They are dictated arrogantly upon you so EVERYBODY can have fun. Not just you.

Sure totally agree if I want to play soccer I use soccer rules if I want to play basketball I use basketball rules the same goes for dayz if I want to play 1st person I play on the first person rule server like wise 3rd person on their server rule set , easy , I don't however play soccer and try to tell the basketball players how to play their game .

Choice Nectar of the gods .

Edited August 27, 2013 by SMLE

[wild_man 4442]

this one is epic size thread for sure, is show 100% third person is big problem for dayz :rolleyes:

 

is too many good true reason for explain why third person is bad idea - exploit wall hack, make player having super power bullshits like magic, it make game too much stupid easy time :huh:

is too much true all this ones :thumbsup:

 

is no good true reason for explain why third person is good idea - to look on character, to make aware feel for environment, because first person make me feeling sick :o

is pure bullshits all this ones >:(

 

point is too many guys show fear for play this game in real style, maximum difficult and make player think and need to put effort for get 'feel for environment'

more effort for invest in some game = more satisfy after make win/more pain after make one lose. :thumbsup:

 

is obvious more hard the game is better for all guys except some lazy one who don't want challenge for feel pleasures <_<

 

Rocket, I say for you this

 

you are #1 zombie survive game genius, you make something is new and original with idea from your brain B)

 

trust please this brain, make strong consider on this third person

you know in heart is take away too much more than is giving back for best game I ever playing

 

be brave guy and is true for sure after a few hour playing time no guys give fuck about no more third person, they enjoy true immerse experience for real and say 'Thankyou Rocket, was correct decide from you' :thumbsup:  :D

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Choice Nectar of the gods .

Yeh you do mention that a bit.

 

The thing is IMO you're only partially right.  If true choice was indeed the way forward there'd be no point in them even attempting to make a game, they'd just say:

 

"well there's a computer, it has infinite possibilities so knock yourself out!"

 

Making a game is about good design and good design is as much about choosing what to omit from that design as it about what to include, more so in fact.  We rely in them as game designers to create a world/experience we want to be a part of, that's thier job and an important part of that job is actually limiting our choices in certain ways.  Games that try to please everyone all of the time usually fail because it's only by trying to focus the actual experience that you can make something truly worth playing.

 

If I go to a Chinese restaurant and see burgers and pizza on the menu then I'd leave.  Why would I do that if choice is always a good thing? Well because I went there for Chinese food and I'm relying on the restaurant owners knowledge and experience to offer me a good menu.  I want a menu with with choice but I'm also relying on the owners knowledge to refine my choice which will result in a better experience for me.  

 

In fact an overly large menu is usually the sign of a bad restaurant because it displays lack of focus and/or confidence in what they're serving.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[tommes 331]

Sure totally agree if I want to play soccer I use soccer rules if I want to play basketball I use basketball rules the same goes for dayz if I want to play 1st person I play on the first person rule server like wise 3rd person on their server rule set , easy , I don't however play soccer and try to tell the basketball players how to play their game .

Choice Nectar of the gods .

One game, one league, one set of rules.

Translated to DayZ that would mean a own hive for each. Aside from the logistics this would be a major division of the community.

[tommes 331]

I really don't understand why people cling so much to something nobody misses in genuine 1st person games. Sure, Arma 2 and therefore DayZ feel really bad at times, but this is a matter of fine tuning the controls. I don't know any other game where climbing ladders is such a hassle for example or changing weapons or even opening a door or then getting trough one. But even at the present (bad) state you can easily live without 3rd person. It is challenging some times. It is comfortable to switch to 3rd person. But the hassle of other players exploiting TPV outweighs the hassles of not having it by far. Of course you will not notice that if you only play far off any other players but if that's your preferred style of play, then why even bother with a multiplayer game in the first place?

[tommes 331]

One other thing. If you play with some other guys there will be at least one of them "needing" 3rd person for life'n'shit. So you're going to give in to his bitching and have to play lame style. I'd wish there'd be no such discussion. No nametags. No waypoints. No 3rd person. No discussion. No bitching.

[wild_man 4442]

One game, one league, one set of rules.

Translated to DayZ that would mean a own hive for each. Aside from the logistics this would be a major division of the community.

keep one dayz community, I agree this 100% :thumbsup:   :)

 

I really don't understand why people cling so much to something nobody misses in genuine 1st person games. Sure, Arma 2 and therefore DayZ feel really bad at times, but this is a matter of fine tuning the controls. I don't know any other game where climbing ladders is such a hassle for example or changing weapons or even opening a door or then getting trough one. But even at the present (bad) state you can easily live without 3rd person. It is challenging some times. It is comfortable to switch to 3rd person. But the hassle of other players exploiting TPV outweighs the hassles of not having it by far. Of course you will not notice that if you only play far off any other players but if that's your preferred style of play, then why even bother with a multiplayer game in the first place?

some guys are like addict for this, is no way for reason debate because they have denial in brain is set like concrete :huh:

 

One other thing. If you play with some other guys there will be at least one of them "needing" 3rd person for life'n'shit. So you're going to give in to his bitching and have to play lame style. I'd wish there'd be no such discussion. No nametags. No waypoints. No 3rd person. No discussion. No bitching.

i keep believe rocket see true sense and make decide for 'best game' not 'happier pussy guys' :lol:

[excursion_@hotmail.com 19]

I know for a fact that many people simply cannot play DayZ in 1st person, something to do with the head bob, FPS and the monitor hz.

I suffer from this and can only enjoy this game in 3rd person.

 

This topic has gained massive interested and shows Rocket that there is no clear winner for either mode ergo both should remain.

 

I would hate to miss the opportunity to play DayZ when its released for something so petty.