First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[IncognitoNico 71]

I think it should be time for people to stop this discussion, rocket said in the last devblog that 3rd person will be a more over the should type of camera, so it won't be so exploitable, so yeah.... everybody stop degrading yourselves by repeating the same arguments for 100 pages!

Edited September 7, 2013 by IncognitoNico

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

just watched latest dev blog.

 

Rocket confirmed 3rd person is in.

 

/endthread..

 

thx Rocket..

 

5mins to 5:30 secs in.

But that's what I've been trying to tell you since page one - derp.  He's never once even hinted at removing the 3rd person cam.

 

Instead you seem to read every one of  my posts as an argument for 3rd person cam being removed.  I just want it looked at, which is what they're going to do.  In the blog he talks about bringing the cam closer to the player in certain situations, something we've been trying to discuss since the very start of the thread.

 

That is the whole premise for this thread :/

Edited September 7, 2013 by Fraggle

[Inception. 9443]

But that's what I've been trying to tell tou since page one - derp

 

Instead you seem to read every one of  my posts as an argument for 3rd person cam being removed.  I just want it looked at, which is what they're going to do. 

 

That is the whole premise for this thread :/

 

Welcome to the DayZ Forums

[Wayze 549]

There are plenty of limitations and draw backs to both perspectives because it is not real life. A better peeking system for FPV is crucial and the biggest drawback to FPV is body awareness. If you are making the dreaded "realism" argument then one of the biggest drawbacks to FPV is the lack of body awareness and spatial awareness. In real life (remember you brought up realism, I hate realism arguments because it is a game) you do not have to see someone walking behind you to detect their presence. Walking by objects does not require as many bumps as you experience in FPV either, because we have a variety of senses that all blend together to give us spatial awareness and a better attachment to our environment. In a video game you get two senses, and often sound is flawed. Also FOV will rarely match up to a realistic FOV even with a slider. Maybe a three screen set up, but that is not an option for many people.

Also it is not really a fix that is needed, it is just something you accept when you play FPV in any game. Much like you have to accept the drawbacks of TPV in any game that allows it.

Lack of body awareness and spatial awareness are not possible in a first person game. It just does not work out, even Call of Duty or Battlefield does not have this. But, I don't think that is necessery for a game, especially when the consequences of getting it would be exploiting. I don't think that body awareness and spatial awareness is the real problem in the game. It is the movement of the character, which is not very natural. It feels a bit like a tank in first person because:

1. When you move a bit, the character is making a big footstep, which is annoying if you are on a roof or something

2. when changing the direction with WASD it sometimes stops the character, it is not very fluid, this is something you especially realise in first person

I agree, this is something which should be taken care of in standalone.

 

I think peeking in DayZ is working very, very good. Better than in other games. Peeking around a corner is perfect and with the new system in the SA peeking over objects will be way easier to, because of the more stances.

 

I am not sure what you mean with "you do not have to see someone walking behind you to detect their presence". Do you see someone in real life if you can't see him? No, you do hear him, which is working in Arma 2 perfect. I have to remember, if someone is very skilled in sneaking he is able to sneak up right behind you and you will probably notice it after your throat is cut. This is something which works in DayZ very good in my opinion.

 

Yes you are right, in the end it is just what you prefer. Third person is for you a better gameplay style, it is easier but on the other side it kills much of the immersion. First person is a better expirience in DayZ sense, but it can be harder to play.

I hope there will be some first person servers in the standalone which are well visited, probably not, but I will play DayZ no matter what.

 

 

Again you think everyone wants what you want. Im roleplaying all the time in DayZ, and im going to continue when SA comes out. It has nothing to do with FPV or TPV or how realistic the game is. I play games because i can experience and do things i would not do in real life. Sometimes i play massmurderer-bandit and kill everything and everyone in front of me, sometimes i play hero, help survivors and hunt bandits. Sometimes i play PvP with my friends, more tactical military style. These are all roleplaying in different styles. DayZ is a roleplaying game, at least in to some point and there is nothing you can do about it. FPV only wont change that. You need to start think other people too, not just your own opinions and think everyone wants/thinks the same. It sound you live in you own dream world and you want so bad that SA would be the perfect game for you, and that all the other people thinks the same way you do and wants to play the game same way you do. And if not? FORCE THEM ALL TO PLAY SAME WAY!!! If they are not happy, they will calm down, they will learn to like your way better, eventually they will accept "your way" and be happy about it. Thats just insane.

I never said everyone wants that, but I never have seen anyone in the game who roleplayed, not even on youtube. Roleplaying would be what JackFrags did here:

All of this is scripted though. Jack and his friend do not role play, just the other guys. It was especially made for the video.

 

People pretend to be in the apocalypse. You decribed not real role playing. Being bandit, hero or a massmurderer is something you choose. These roles though are very similar to the ones existing in real life. For example being a police officer is a role and also being a father is a role. One man can be both, his behaviour is depending on the situations he is in. He got these roles, which every single human on this earth has.

I was explaining to you why DayZ is no roleplaying game to me, it is simply because it was never about roleplaying. You can roleplay in every single game on this world, but that is not the point in every single game in the world. Just because you role play, it does not mean it is a role playing game. Like I said, I never expirienced someone who played a real role, the only thing the people change is the behaviour. Exactly like you said, a bandit is behaving other from a hero. It is something you choose to do, it is more a playstyle than a role.

 

And what I wrote was not about first person or third person, it was just what I think DayZ is, the first survival simulation ever made.

 

 

Did i say FPV is more unrealistic than TPV? This is AGAIN perfect example of how your mind works. Automatically you assume that this is about FPV vs TPV issue that if something is wrong about FPV i automatically think TPV has it better? Jesus man...

In FPV view your view is unrealistically limited. Explain to me please, in real world, if you are prone in the woods behind a small rock, so small that you are hidden behind it when you are prone but if you rise up to your knee you expose your whole upper body. Okay, you are lying behind the rock there is someone 100 meters front of you. You are not sure if he knows you are there and if he does you are sure he will try to shoot you. What would you do if you want to see what this guy is doing? In real life, explain to me.

Yes the perfect example how my mind works. Man, you are a genius or something. You should study psychology, maybe you get a nobel price.

 

You said "first person is unrealistic". If this was not about "more realistic than third person", then this statemant was totally unnessery. I mean, what is your logic here? Everything is unrealistic. The shooting is unrealistic, walking is unrealistic, picking up an object is unrealistic, opening a door is unrealistic, animations are unrealistic, the buildings are unrealistic, shooting is unrealistic.

I don't know if you realised it, but this is a game, it will never be realistic in any way. So cut the crap with this "perfect example how your mind works", because I got the feeling that you just cannot hear another opinion. Always you try to get on the personal area, insult me as a person and you never stay on the topic. I bet you wouldn't do that we were face to face, but this is sadly the advantage of anonymity in the internet.

 

[fluxley 2228]

But that's what I've been trying to tell tou since page one - derp

 

Instead you seem to read every one of  my posts as an argument for 3rd person cam being removed.  I just want it looked at, which is what they're going to do. 

 

That is the whole premise for this thread :/

 

There there Fraggle, try not to think about it.

 

Dammit, was sure i was gonna get page 100 <_<

Edited September 7, 2013 by Fluxley

[RooBurger 285]

Just for a little perspective (heh), these are my options for first person servers with the best pings:

 

 

Edit - Welcome to page 100, bitches!

Edited September 7, 2013 by RooBurger

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

There there Fraggle, try not to think about it.

 

Dammit, was sure i was gonna get page 100 <_<

QQ

 

Well, I'm just happy the blog has cleared it up a bit now so people are at least clear on their intentions.  Should cheer a lot of people up I guess.

[tommes 331]

We're getting 4th person view only.

Somebody, in a secret location, vaguely describes what's going on, down the phone.

No more peeking round corners.

Nice one.

[fluxley 2228]

 

 

Edit - Welcome to page 100, bitches!

 

Damn you.

[RooBurger 285]

I win, you can all go home now.

[aeinola 25]

People pretend to be in the apocalypse. You decribed not real role playing. Being bandit, hero or a massmurderer is something you choose. These roles though are very similar to the ones existing in real life. For example being a police officer is a role and also being a father is a role. One man can be both, his behaviour is depending on the situations he is in. He got these roles, which every single human on this earth has.

I was explaining to you why DayZ is no roleplaying game to me, it is simply because it was never about roleplaying. You can roleplay in every single game on this world, but that is not the point in every single game in the world. Just because you role play, it does not mean it is a role playing game. Like I said, I never expirienced someone who played a real role, the only thing the people change is the behaviour. Exactly like you said, a bandit is behaving other from a hero. It is something you choose to do, it is more a playstyle than a role.

This part i kind of can agree with you. But this starts to be more of an opinion than fact. You say playstyle, i say roleplay.. We are pretty much talking about the same thing, we just have different name for it.

 

You said "first person is unrealistic". If this was not about "more realistic than third person", then this statemant was totally unnessery. I mean, what is your logic here? Everything is unrealistic. The shooting is unrealistic, walking is unrealistic, picking up an object is unrealistic, opening a door is unrealistic, animations are unrealistic, the buildings are unrealistic, shooting is unrealistic.

Forgive me to use word like realistic. It does not make it any more enjoyable or less broken if i tell myself, "well, its only a game". It is unplayable, is that word better for you?

 

I don't know if you realised it, but this is a game, it will never be realistic in any way. So cut the crap with this "perfect example how your mind works", because I got the feeling that you just cannot hear another opinion. Always you try to get on the personal area, insult me as a person and you never stay on the topic. I bet you wouldn't do that we were face to face, but this is sadly the advantage of anonymity in the internet.

Yes, its only a game, and thats why people should be able to play with 3rd person view also. I can and i WANT to hear other opinions, thats the whole idea in conversations. And yes, i do get on the personal area sometimes, thats my style. If i offend someone too much i apologize. And yes, i would do that in your face too, everyone who knows me irl would confirm this.

 

You again ignored totally my question. Dont know why. Its kind of hard to have conversation with you because of this. So i try to ask again.

Your question was: "And what is so limited about the FPV? What would you like to have fixed?

And answer to that was this question to you: "Explain to me please, in real world, if you are prone in the woods behind a small rock, so small that you are hidden behind it when you are prone but if you rise up to your knee you expose your whole upper body. Okay, you are lying behind the rock there is someone 100 meters front of you. You are not sure if he knows you are there and if he does you are sure he will try to shoot you. What would you do if you want to see what this guy is doing? In real life, explain to me."

[Wayze 549]

Forgive me to use word like realistic. It does not make it any more enjoyable or less broken if i tell myself, "well, its only a game". It is unplayable, is that word better for you?

I forgive you. Unplayable is a better word, but now it is just wrong. It is not unplayable, it is just harder.

 

 

Yes, its only a game, and thats why people should be able to play with 3rd person view also. I can and i WANT to hear other opinions, thats the whole idea in conversations. And yes, i do get on the personal area sometimes, thats my style. If i offend someone too much i apologize. And yes, i would do that in your face too, everyone who knows me irl would confirm this.

You know, you are still in the internet. I could tell you everyone who knows me would confrim that I am the king of the world. Does it change anything? ;)

 

 

You again ignored totally my question. Dont know why. Its kind of hard to have conversation with you because of this. So i try to ask again.

Your question was: "And what is so limited about the FPV? What would you like to have fixed?

And answer to that was this question to you: "Explain to me please, in real world, if you are prone in the woods behind a small rock, so small that you are hidden behind it when you are prone but if you rise up to your knee you expose your whole upper body. Okay, you are lying behind the rock there is someone 100 meters front of you. You are not sure if he knows you are there and if he does you are sure he will try to shoot you. What would you do if you want to see what this guy is doing? In real life, explain to me."

In real life I would just peek out, risking that he shots me in the head. Why do you ask?

Edited September 7, 2013 by Wayze

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

I feel like you barely skim my posts.

 

I tried to show the difference in difficult between first and third in any game and you dismiss it by implying difficulty in first person GTA is a result it being designed for third person. DayZ, GTA, COD, BF, it doesn't matter, the difference between playing first and third is there in each.

 

I agree the fact that he played a MOD version of first person probably increased the difficult. But, that's not at all the difficulty I was talking about. In fact, he seemed to control the character better in first than I can in third. I was talking about the difficulty that comes with seeing less and having to move your tunnel vision around to see everything. Maintaining situational awareness in a difficult situation isn't easy and giving a player third person view makes it a hell of a lot easier. No amount of design focus will change the fact that third person views give almost better than reality awareness in most games.

I was talking about "situation". As in the situation the game places you in. I don't get what's so complicated in that.

It's, without a doubt, a matter of design.

 

GTA is an action-packed, fast-paced run and gun game. Designed to be played from a 3rd person perspective, with no thought put into concealment, patience or tactics.

ArmA is a battle simulator, based around gaining the upper-hand using method rather than brute force.

 

GTA is (mostly) set in built up cities and densely populated urban areas.

ArmA is......not.

 

What I'm saying is, the two are barely comparable. And that's due largely to the fact that they are designed with entirely different styles of gameplay in mind.

 

I'm fairly certain that playing Pac-Man in FPV would also result in an apparent net-disadvantage.

[aeinola 25]

You know, you are still in the internet. I could tell you everyone who knows me would confrim that I am the king of the world. Does it change anything? ;)

Good point. LOL!

 

In real life I would just peek out, risking that he shots me in the head. Why do you ask?

Peek out how? Can you do that in the game?

[Wayze 549]

Good point. LOL!

 

Peek out how? Can you do that in the game?

Sure, just stand up or roll aside.

[fluxley 2228]

 

Peek out how? Can you do that in the game?

 

If they implement adjustable stances like in arma 3 then yes you will be able to peek.

 

Rocket has mentioned stances in the past and theres a hint of it in the new devblog when he's crawling on the ground.

[aeinola 25]

Sure, just stand up or roll aside.

And this is exactly why i dont play 1st person only. Another thing is bushes and trees, how stupid you are if you cant move one branch/leaf away from front of your eyes, noo you have to move forward and expose your self so you can see. These limitations brake the 1st person for me. 3rd person has its own problems but i can live with them.

 

If they implement adjustable stances like in arma 3 then yes you will be able to peek.

 

Rocket has mentioned stances in the past and theres a hint of it in the new devblog when he's crawling on the ground.

Arma3 stances are nice addition but dont really do the trick. And is way too clumsy in my opinion. I would keep the 3 basic stances and add similar to free look system that you can hold down a key and move your mouse to peak over or under obstacle. If you release the key your stance would go back where it was just like in free look. This would be easy implement and would be way more better than Arma3 stances.

 

And the hiding in bushes blind thing, i would make the bushes, branches and leaves transparent when you are really close to them, like 20-40 cm or something. That way you could see better (and more realistically) when hiding.

Edited September 7, 2013 by aeinola

[Heiduk 265]

DayZ is not first person shooter, its more of a mmorpg.

I see DayZ as a survival horror game

For me DayZ is the first and the only survival simulation ever made.

 

I love how differently people see this game.

 

Anyone for 200 pages?

 

I'll begin, water is in fact not wet. I get mine from: http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/

[tommes 331]

I would argue that none of them are exploits but just the natural outcome of the third person perspective.

Yep. That's why it would be better if it'd be removed entirely.

[tommes 331]

Again you think everyone wants what you want. Im roleplaying all the time in DayZ, and im going to continue when SA comes out. It has nothing to do with FPV or TPV or how realistic the game is. I play games because i can experience and do things i would not do in real life. Sometimes i play massmurderer-bandit and kill everything and everyone in front of me, sometimes i play hero, help survivors and hunt bandits. Sometimes i play PvP with my friends, more tactical military style. These are all roleplaying in different styles. DayZ is a roleplaying game, at least in to some point and there is nothing you can do about it. FPV only wont change that. You need to start think other people too, not just your own opinions and think everyone wants/thinks the same. It sound you live in you own dream world and you want so bad that SA would be the perfect game for you, and that all the other people thinks the same way you do and wants to play the game same way you do. And if not? FORCE THEM ALL TO PLAY SAME WAY!!! If they are not happy, they will calm down, they will learn to like your way better, eventually they will accept "your way" and be happy about it. Thats just insane.

You can roleplay as much as you want. FPV only won't keep you from that. This whole role playing argument is nonsense.

[tommes 331]

The interesting thing there is that TPV isn't required anymore like he was talking about in that reddit thread. Presumably as he finds out how impossible it is to make TPV unexploitable it will become more obvious that it just has to go.

The TPV lovers won't ever see that. Not even in 3rd. ^^

[tommes 331]

Well, I'm just happy the blog has cleared it up a bit now so people are at least clear on their intentions.  Should cheer a lot of people up I guess.

Not sure which side more. I am curious how much TPVers gonna whine about it beeing nerfed. I hope a lot. ;)

[tommes 331]

I love how differently people see this game.

 

Anyone for 200 pages?

 

I'll begin, water is in fact not wet. I get mine from: http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/

Yeah, it's quite interesting how everybody tries to classify DayZ into their preferred chambre. For me it's mostly a source of fresh salty water out of the tears of others. ^^

Im in it for making it a thousand pages. Let's set a record! Let's bust the limits of the database!

[aeinola 25]

Here is the basic stances:

Now think about if you are prone, you press "free peak" key and move mouse down and your survivor puts his head to the ground to get as much cover he can, at this position you cant see much and cant obviously shoot anything. Now if you press the "free peak" key and move mouse up you could rise your head (and upper body) to a cobra position demonstrated in this picture:

At this posture you cant shoot either, only peak over obstacles. And the whole idea of this is to make it move same way the head moves when you use the free look, stepless.

Same thing for the crouch and stand stances. With "free peak" key you could move your head and upper body up and down.

I think this would be easy to implement, the animations would probably take a lot of work. This system alone would make me play 1st person only.

[aeinola 25]

You can roleplay as much as you want. FPV only won't keep you from that. This whole role playing argument is nonsense.

And where did i say FPV limits this? Or that TPV does this better? We were talking about DayZ in general. You need to start reading more carefully. Where these people come from. Right from a tree?