First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Well, I'm all talked out for now.  Please accept this in the spirit it is intended to lighten the mood,  Episode 1:

 

Edited August 29, 2013 by Fraggle

[Heiduk 265]

Another doubtful theory. I think the view has no impact on the loot piles.

 

Of course, it doesn't effect the loot piles but it absolutely effects how long it takes a player to get to them.

 

And of cause, you may have a longer life, if you can mange to control your character better in 3rd person.

 

You entirely missed by point, nonetheless, I would be willing to bet that the average life span is longer on 1st person servers than it is on 3rd person servers, for all of the reasons Mercules outlines.

[Ken Bean 175]

I figure we have a bunch of thirst person shooter fans who deny to be 1st person shooter fans.

Should DayZ be a 1st person shooter?

What I not get is, why do they not play on 1st person server?

Such server are out there.


 

"Problem: He's playing on a 3rd person enabled sever Jim!"

- "Well, if that's a problem, then go play on a 1st person server!"

 

Nuff said?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Ken Bean 175]

Of course, it doesn't effect the loot piles but it absolutely effects how long it takes a player to get to them.

 

 

You entirely missed by point, nonetheless, I would be willing to bet that the average life span is longer on 1st person servers than it is on 3rd person servers, for all of the reasons Mercules outlines.

Well you need extremely luck to find something usefull. Even more after 1.7. So you feel like your life span is too long and not in danger?

[tommes 331]

I figure we have a bunch of thirst person shooter fans who deny to be 1st person shooter fans.

Should DayZ be a 1st person shooter?

The FPV camp is not the one living in denial.

DayZ already is a FPS.

It has barely any roleplaying elements.

What I not get is, why do they not play on 1st person server?

Such server are out there.

Go back to page 1 of this thread, read every post carefully again until your reading skill has improved! See it as a quest like in a role playing game. But don't switch to 3rd person while doing that! I have the feeling you do that and it gives you Reading -20 points.

[Ken Bean 175]

The FPV camp is not the one living in denial.

DayZ already is a FPS.

It has barely any roleplaying elements.

Go back to page 1 of this thread, read every post carefully again until your reading skill has improved! See it as a quest like in a role playing game. But don't switch to 3rd person while doing that! I have the feeling you do that and it gives you Reading -20 points.

 

 

We get to the point. And you wonder about the kill on sight problematic... -.-

But no, I don't really think so. At least it's not the main focus. I didn't (re)read every of the 1205 posts here carefully, maybe the last 300, but I think I'm qualified enough to state my opinion.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

 

To the red part. You know that the last situation was that loads of player complained that they got infected? Getting infected usually only happens if you eat raw flesh, drink unboiled water, getting in contact with another survivor who is infected and, last but not least, getting hit by an infective zed.

 

So yeah, Zeds are not "no match", at least currently. Wich is good, but not the 1st or 3rd persons fault.

 

I think you missed the point. Zeds are not a huge risk in either mode but they are even less of a risk in TPV. They are annoying and can be occasionally dangerous in FPV but are a JOKE in TPV when I can look over a fence and see which way the Zed I heard is facing, realize it isn't looking my way, then crouch run past it's back OR look over, see it is looking at the end of the wall I am running towards and hit the brakes so I don't agro it. In FPV I have to go to the corner and peek or take my chances knowing I heard a zombie and hoping it is looking the other way. 

Style A: Slightly dangerous but can be dealt with once you get used to them.

Style B: Not dangerous at all because they can't see me while I can see them. 

That is a TPV issue. It turns zombies into a non-threat. Once that happens looting becomes simple because looting always happens where zombies are, true story. If loot can spawn in an area, so can zombies. Remove the danger from zombies and the loot is easier to get. TPV removes the danger of zombies because THEY CAN'T USE IT. ;)

[wild_man 4442]

Well, I'm all talked out for now.  Please accept this in the spirit it is intended to lighten the mood,  Episode 1:

 

awesome :beans:

[tommes 331]

I don't believe in PvP through boredom. Hence DayZ is sort of a FPS people go there because they want to fight. Fighting is fun. The problem is rather rooted in the fact that they don't find anyone worth shooting so they just shoot anything.

[Jamz 253]

Yeah, and offset cam might be better. I guess I was considering more the comments that TPV gives people a better feel for where their character is in relation to doorways, objects, and such and thought being directly behind would meet that need better. I could see a person who bumps into things in FPV also bumping into things on the "off" side of their body where the offset cam isn't.  Also an offset cam that low can obscure part of your vision and be taken advantage of by others. "Camera is on the right shoulder so always approach from the left if you can, they have a blindspot to the left."

 

 

I think the only way around the offset cam creating possible disorientation inside buildings would be to go first person in that situation, so the mouse roller could be used to roll into FPV when you enter if you like, or stay in shouldercam if you'd rather sacrifice spatial awareness a little. Regarding the blind spot advantage, the player would select either left or right shoulder at the beginning of each life so no one could tell which shoulder their view is over just by looking at someone else. Also personally I would want to roll into FPV when approaching and entering buildings as in this case, it would have the advantage over TPV.

 

What do you think of possible exploits of this system in pvp?

[Ken Bean 175]

I think you missed the point. Zeds are not a huge risk in either mode but they are even less of a risk in TPV. They are annoying and can be occasionally dangerous in FPV but are a JOKE in TPV when I can look over a fence and see which way the Zed I heard is facing, realize it isn't looking my way, then crouch run past it's back OR look over, see it is looking at the end of the wall I am running towards and hit the brakes so I don't agro it. In FPV I have to go to the corner and peek or take my chances knowing I heard a zombie and hoping it is looking the other way. 

Style A: Slightly dangerous but can be dealt with once you get used to them.

Style B: Not dangerous at all because they can't see me while I can see them. 

That is a TPV issue. It turns zombies into a non-threat. Once that happens looting becomes simple because looting always happens where zombies are, true story. If loot can spawn in an area, so can zombies. Remove the danger from zombies and the loot is easier to get. TPV removes the danger of zombies because THEY CAN'T USE IT. ;)

 

To the red:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but loot spawns in a defined circle around the player. If the player comes near the loot pile, loot spawns. Zeds btw also spawn around the player.

 

To the rest:

Good, its not dangerous, then whats the matter with the 3rd person "exploit"? Doesn't it make other player more dangourous? Because they constantly snipe you from invinciple positions?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Jamz 253]

I don't believe in PvP through boredom. Hence DayZ is sort of a FPS people go there because they want to fight. Fighting is fun. The problem is rather rooted in the fact that they don't find anyone worth shooting so they just shoot anything.

 

If you want to treat the game as an FPS then that's fine, but no one should try and make it an FPS. It's a player populated zombie survival sim which presently defies pidgeonholeing. A PPZSS if you will.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

To the red:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but loot spawns in a defined circle around the player. If the player comes near the loot pile, loot spawns. Zeds btw also spawn around the player.

 

To the rest:

Good, its not dangerous, then whats the matter with the 3rd person "exploit"? Doesn't it make other player more dangourous? Because they constantly snipe you from invinciple positions?

In the SA the whole loot system is different as is the zed spawn system.  As I understand it, it will spawn like the zeds will on server startup and persist in the world.  It will of course re-spawn at some point but I'm not sure about the conditions that will happen under.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Fraggle

[mercules 1290]

I figure we have a bunch of thirst person shooter fans who deny to be 1st person shooter fans.

Should DayZ be a 1st person shooter?

What I not get is, why do they not play on 1st person server?

Such server are out there.

 

Nuff said?

 

I figure you have no clue what I am. Yes, I like FPS games but I also like sim games and RPGs. I like Skyrim and set goals for myself when I play like, "Not going to use spells." or "ONLY use spells, no weapons/armor". 

 

 

What you not get... is that we can play on a FPV server BUT some of us actually play with friends we have in real life. When their time is limited some of them chose to go the easiest route possible which happens to be the route you have chosen which means when I want to play with them I have to play on easy mode with other people playing on easy mode and not on a FPV only server. Given the option some people will take the easiest route even if it might not be good for them in the long run, see "Hamburger Helper".

Look, I know everyone has their own comfort level with difficulty in games. Some people even use outside tools to make their game easier like trainers/hacks because they don't actually like to play the game as designed. Here we have a chance to let the devs know what challenge level we want. I want hard, you want slightly less hard, some others want hard but with the parts of TPV that make it slightly less hard removed. We all need to speak up and hope they can see what we want since we will be their players.

[mercules 1290]

To the red:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but loot spawns in a defined circle around the player. If the player comes near the loot pile, loot spawns. Zeds btw also spawn around the player.

 

To the rest:

Good, its not dangerous, then whats the matter with the 3rd person "exploit"? Doesn't it make other player more dangourous? Because they constantly snipe you from invinciple positions?

 

Hey! Keep reading the next line after the red where I just said what you responded with.  Where is there a loot spawn point where there is not a zombie spawn point nearby? Nowhere in Vanilla. Zombies slow down looting. How much is based on their difficulty. Players do not slow down looting since not every spawn point will have a player right there. So the determining factor is zombies. Players can exploit the TPV zombies can not. So TPV makes looting easier and faster because it makes zombies less dangerous. Now, it does make Cherno and Electro more dangerous because of players using the TPV to snipe bambies in those areas, but I can gear up quickly from deerstands/industrial areas/barns.

[mercules 1290]

If you want to treat the game as an FPS then that's fine, but no one should try and make it an FPS. It's a player populated zombie survival sim which presently defies pidgeonholeing. A PPZSS if you will.

 

Agreed, but you have to admit that FPS is an aspect of it. It has FPS inside it's bubble.

Not all of DayZ is FPS but the way you interact with the environment is very FPS. On top of that it is built from a FPS engine. It is so much more than a FPS but you can't say there isn't a FPS component to the game. 

[Ken Bean 175]

I figure you have no clue what I am. Yes, I like FPS games but I also like sim games and RPGs. I like Skyrim and set goals for myself when I play like, "Not going to use spells." or "ONLY use spells, no weapons/armor".

Approximately human or very close I suppose.

 

What you not get... is that we can play on a FPV server BUT some of us actually play with friends we have in real life. When their time is limited some of them chose to go the easiest route possible which happens to be the route you have chosen which means when I want to play with them I have to play on easy mode with other people playing on easy mode and not on a FPV only server. Given the option some people will take the easiest route even if it might not be good for them in the long run, see "Hamburger Helper".

Look, I know everyone has their own comfort level with difficulty in games. Some people even use outside tools to make their game easier like trainers/hacks because they don't actually like to play the game as designed. Here we have a chance to let the devs know what challenge level we want. I want hard, you want slightly less hard, some others want hard but with the parts of TPV that make it slightly less hard removed. We all need to speak up and hope they can see what we want since we will be their players.

Excuse me but if you have the feeling, 3rd person is comfort, then fine. (might be even luxus?)

I for myself have to say that I never chose 3rd person server because I considered it easier.

Edit

Hey! Keep reading the next line after the red where I just said what you responded with. Where is there a loot spawn point where there is not a zombie spawn point nearby? Nowhere in Vanilla. Zombies slow down looting. How much is based on their difficulty. Players do not slow down looting since not every spawn point will have a player right there. So the determining factor is zombies. Players can exploit the TPV zombies can not. So TPV makes looting easier and faster because it makes zombies less dangerous. Now, it does make Cherno and Electro more dangerous because of players using the TPV to snipe bambies in those areas, but I can gear up quickly from deerstands/industrial areas/barns.

I have the feeling you didn't understand the looting system of the mod or at least confuse sth. But anyway, Zeds slow down the player, of cause. They slow you down in 1st and in 3rd person. They are roaming around anyway.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Ken Bean 175]

Agreed, but you have to admit that FPS is an aspect of it. It has FPS inside it's bubble.

Not all of DayZ is FPS but the way you interact with the environment is very FPS. On top of that it is built from a FPS engine. It is so much more than a FPS but you can't say there isn't a FPS component to the game.

It's quite an engine which supports both views very good. The main aspect or features of the engine are: open world, simulating, looking natural and also multiplayer. But open world and simulation are the key elements, I'd say. Both views go very well.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[sobieski12 835]

Personally I only use it when I want to see around corners, over walls and hills, around trees, and sometimes I'll put the camera through a wall to see what is on the other side. I use it Specifically for PvP. If I'm alone on a server I use first person only.

 

What a surprise.

[mercules 1290]

Approximately human or very close I suppose.

 

Excuse me but if you have the feeling, 3rd person is comfort, then fine. (might be even luxus?)

I for myself have to say that I never chose 3rd person server because I considered it easier.

Edit

I have the feeling you didn't understand the looting system of the mod or at least confuse sth. But anyway, Zeds slow down the player, of cause. They slow you down in 1st and in 3rd person. They are roaming around anyway.

 

 

Doesn't matter what you chose it FOR... it is easier and many other people do choose it for that exact reason. Anecdotal, but my friend has said as much. 

Look, I get the feeling you really don't understand FPV. Maybe I am just a bit more skilled or something similar, but when I get access to TPV and the extra view it grants me, I can move through a loot spawn area at basically a full run. When I play restricted to FPV doing the same thing will end up with me running into trouble I easily avoided in TPV. Maybe I, a proponent of FPV, use TPV better than you do but it makes it ~way~ to easy to run through a town and loot. 

[Wayze 549]

We get to the point. And you wonder about the kill on sight problematic... -.-

But no, I don't really think so. At least it's not the main focus. I didn't (re)read every of the 1205 posts here carefully, maybe the last 300, but I think I'm qualified enough to state my opinion.

No you are not.

[Ken Bean 175]

Doesn't matter what you chose it FOR... it is easier and many other people do choose it for that exact reason. Anecdotal, but my friend has said as much. 

Look, I get the feeling you really don't understand FPV. Maybe I am just a bit more skilled or something similar, but when I get access to TPV and the extra view it grants me, I can move through a loot spawn area at basically a full run. When I play restricted to FPV doing the same thing will end up with me running into trouble I easily avoided in TPV. Maybe I, a proponent of FPV, use TPV better than you do but it makes it ~way~ to easy to run through a town and loot.

I'm certain they buff the zeds somewhat to patch 1.7.7 again. (The version were Zeds basically are on sterioids, faster than you and almost impossible to fight in the open.)

Wait, did you play lately?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

It's quite an engine which supports both views very good. The main aspect or features of the engine are: open world, simulating, looking natural and also multiplayer. But open world and simulation are the key elements, I'd say. Both views go very well.

 

No it doesn't, in fact the mixing views is probably WHY both are rather crappily designed. It doesn't do either well, or at least not as well as other games that stick to one or the other do them. 

The main aspect or features of the engine, per BI are:

 

Main Features

 

*Unrivaled realism

 

*ArmA II models real world ballistics & round deflection, materials penetration, a realtime day/night cycle and dynamic wind, weather and environmental effects.

 

*A player-driven story

 

*Explore multiple paths through a branching campaign. Your actions have consequences!

 

*Seemlessly blends FPS, RTS and RPG elements

 

*Fight first-hand or control multiple squads. Manage resources and watch your units develop.

 

*Dynamic conversation system

 

*Talk to teammates, allies and civilians. Win hearts and minds.

 

*Unique AI

 

*No scripts, no pre defined pathways. AI adapt and use the open environment on the fly.

 

*60 weapons, 120 air, land and sea vehicles

 

*A comprehensive collection of modern military materiel!

 

*The most rewarding multiplayer environment

 

*Fully cooperative campaign, massive PvP battles over air, land and sea. Fight friends online for control of 225sq kilometers of real-world terrain!

 

*Intuituive, powerful mission editor

 

*Design your own mission in minutes or create intricate and unique campaigns.

I struck out the stuff that doesn't seem to apply to DayZ and that leaves us with realism and realistic ballistics, a combination of FPS, RTS, and RPG, weapons and vehicles, and a good multiplayer environment. This isn't a "Guardian Angel looking over my shoulder able to see trouble I can't." simulation, this is a "Zombie Survival" simulation, and that is the main reason it should be restricted to FPV OR the Guardian Angel aspect of TPV should be removed from that view where you can see things over, under, and around objects you couldn't through your avatar's eyes.

[mercules 1290]

I'm certain they buff the zeds somewhat to patch 1.7.7 again. (The version were Zeds basically are on sterioids, faster than you and almost impossible to fight in the open.)

Wait, did you play lately?

 

I am certain it doesn't matter if the zeds can knock me down, infect me, or do more damage IF THEY NEVER GET A CHANCE TO HIT ME BECAUSE I CAN SEE THEM COMING FROM PERFECTLY SAFE COVER AND AVOID THEM COMPLETELY. I was playing Vanilla DayZ last night, BTW. 3rd person server because there were 60 people there and my friend who doesn't like 1st wanted to play with us. I can tell you I was never hit by a zombie although I died last night. 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

It also causes over 80% of sales ill have some of that trouble any day thankyou .

cheers

 

Wow, what an ignorant statement. You're suggesting that 80% of the people who bought Arma to play DayZ mod did it specifically because DayZ included third person view? Tell me then, why did they not buy Arma2 years ago when it launched? Surely it had third person view at launch, if you're implying that's the deciding factor for people, dayz didnt introduce anything new.

 

Seriously tho, people would have bought dayz if it didn't even have third person view. CHKilroys videos became insanely popular early on in DayZs life, and he didn't enter third person once during any of them.