First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Yes but a better game for who ? definatly not the vast majority that like 3rd person view .

Oh and there you go using the E word again , say it all you like does not make it true .

Choice now with built in bottle opener

First, they ARE exploits. Rocket himself made it pretty clear that third person view wasn't working the way he wants it to.

 

Second, why would fixing the exploits in third person NOT make it a better game for people who play in third person view? If they truly prefer that view to first person, it wouldn't matter if they can't look over walls and around corners anymore....right?

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

 

I just wish people here would just admit that 3rd person makes the game easier and removes the fear and tension that only 1st person an truly give.  There is nothing wrong with defaulting back to a more comfortable view if that is what you like but let's not delude ourselves in saying that it makes DayZ better because more people play with it on in DayZ Commander. It is easy mode - and i honestly thought DayZ wasn't about being easy. Being able to camp a roof in 3rd while prone is easy. Do it in 1st and shoot me and i will be impressed.

 

 

 

That happens again and again in CoD, BF, or other high end FPS shooters.  It's actually far easier to shoot someone in a situation like that in FP only as your target can't see a thing.  A smart player with third on would ASSUME a potential threat would exist in an advantageous location and even keep an eye on that snipers nest as he moves.  He may even actually sprint and run smart paths around buildings, walls, cars, etc to outsmart the sniper.  Brains will always overcome some moron on a hill with a gun looking for a cheap kill.  I can't recall the last time I was sniped in Cherno while hitting up the popular loot spots because I NEVER run in a predictable path and always keep an eye on potential sniper locations.  

 

Carefully moving about is required with third on.  With FP only, you only need to look at the most likely danger spots and if you don't see anyone, you're safe.  No thanks.  I don't want to know the coast is clear.  I want to hear that snap of a bullet and then desperately run, strafe, sprint, and duck to avoid catching a bullet, if I was dumb enough to step out of cover.  

 

I'm sorry, but there's nothing easy about third when it comes to actually playing in third.  It's only easy for campers, a group that will to exist with or without third person.  A camper only has to cover the entrance to a popular loot spot to stack bodies, the only difference is whether he's inside the building or outside.

[SmashT 10907]

First, they ARE exploits. Rocket himself made it pretty clear that third person view wasn't working the way he wants it to.

 

Second, why would fixing the exploits in third person NOT make it a better game for people who play in third person view? If they truly prefer that view to first person, it wouldn't matter if they can't look over walls and around corners anymore....right?

 

They want to continue using the exploits, that's the primary reason they use third person. It's the primary reason I use it too due to the advantage it gives you :)

Edited August 28, 2013 by SmashT

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

They want to continue using the exploits, that's the primary reason they use third person.

Exactly what I was getting at. They don't truly enjoy the view, they just enjoy the perks that come with it. I'm guilty of it myself, when I play, I exploit third person.

SAVE ME FROM MYSELF ROCKET!

[terrvik 2409]

Here's the thing. More then a year ago before DayZ totally exploded rocket fed on delicious tears from frustrated gamers not used to the brutal an unforgiving experience his anti-game offered. This made me interested and literally drew me back to PC gaming.

Now, a year later, every gaming magazine have their eyes set on the SA and thousands upon thousands are following the progress. My worries are that this has made rocket to start compromising his original vision and second guess what DayZ should be, even if not intentionally.

FPV or TPV is related to this. Earlier rocket would probably just do it his way and post silly memes when anyone complained but now, maybe, he feels the need to please more people. There is alot of pressure for this game to be good and that means that mainstream gamers has to like the design desicions, even if they water down the experience. I just hope rocket will make the game his way and how HE wants it to be, no matter how the end result might be. He has done so far, and I have liked every decision he has made so far.

In short: I want the sweet delicious tears back. Those were interesting times. Make us cry rocket.

[Ken Bean 175]

They want to continue using the exploits, that's the primary reason they use third person. It's the primary reason I use it too due to the advantage it gives you :)

Learn to survive and move wisely. It's not a shame to die at certain dangerous spots once or twice. It's shame to die there always because you make the same mistakes all over again. The problem I have is the connecting of new player on a position which already has been considered save minutes before. They litterally can spawn in your backyard. Such things always mean trouble for me.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Learn to survive and move wisely. It's not a shame to die at certain dangerous spots once or twice. It's shame if to die there always because you make the same mistakes all over again.

 

Why and how are you turning this into a tactics discussion? As a player, YES deal with the exploit. Use it, defend against it, sure.

 

But, when we're talking about game development, living with an exploit is out of the question. You don't keep exploits in the game just to make it more difficult or easy for the player. That's just bad design.

[DemonGroover 8836]

Here's the thing. More then a year ago before DayZ totally exploded rocket fed on delicious tears from frustrated gamers not used to the brutal an unforgiving experience his anti-game offered. This made me interested and literally drew me back to PC gaming.

Now, a year later, every gaming magazine have their eyes set on the SA and thousands upon thousands are following the progress. My worries are that this has made rocket to start compromising his original vision and second guess what DayZ should be, even if not intentionally.

FPV or TPV is related to this. Earlier rocket would probably just do it his way and post silly memes when anyone complained but now, maybe, he feels the need to please more people. There is alot of pressure for this game to be good and that means that mainstream gamers has to like the design desicions, even if they water down the experience. I just hope rocket will make the game his way and how HE wants it to be, no matter how the end result might be. He has done so far, and I have liked every decision he has made so far.

In short: I want the sweet delicious tears back. Those were interesting times. Make us cry rocket.

 

I haven't cried in a long time.

 

Make me cry Rocket!

 

In all honesty if Rocket decided to make it 1st person only i fear there may be an initial backlash, but if the game was good the players would come back in droves.

Edited August 28, 2013 by DemonGroover

[Ken Bean 175]

Why and how are you turning this into a tactics discussion? As a player, YES deal with the exploit. Use it, defend against it, sure.

 

But, when we're talking about game development, living with an exploit is out of the question. You don't keep exploits in the game just to make it more difficult or easy for the player. That's just bad design.

Because what you call an exploit, for others is a tactic - which in turn can be countered with tactics.

But who is camping on roofs the whole day anyway? This can be pretty boring if it is not Cherno or another hot spot. So you'll need to expect other players there, whether they use 3rd person or not. So I'd sneak into a town as if there would be 3 sniper teams. Mind, there could be a scout and a sniper on the roof working together. So actually I'm not going quite often into towns without a bit of recon in advance. Then I behave like they were there and I've just overseen them. Loads of duck and cover and not resting much in the open and so on.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Because what you call an exploit, for others is a tactic - which in turn can be countered with tactics.

 

It doesn't matter if people have built their game around the faults in third person view. Nor does it matter if those faults can be countered by the use of tactics. It doesn't change the fact that Rocket (the developer) doesn't want these things to be in DayZ, so steps need to be taken to prevent them.

 

Alt-f4 was also a tactic that many people used. It could also be countered by using the right tactics.

 

 

Just because you don't call it an exploit, doesn't change what it is.

[Ken Bean 175]

It doesn't matter if people have built their game around the faults in third person view. Nor does it matter if those faults can be countered by the use of tactics. It doesn't change the fact that Rocket (the developer) doesn't want these things to be in DayZ, so steps need to be taken to prevent them.

 

Alt-f4 was also a tactic that many people used. It could also be countered by using the right tactics.

 

 

Just because you don't call it an exploit, doesn't change what it is.

Nope, thats not correct, third person view is third person view. It's built in by purpose and intention. If you guys refuse to use it, it's one and only your problem. Stop calling it an exploit. This is bs.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I exploit third person the same way I exploit my legs when I take a walk or how I exploit my arms when I go about lifting things.

 

Perhaps this is a good time for some for some of you to learn to walk?  

 

(too much inflammatory nonsense, gotta tinkle a bit on that fire)

Edited August 28, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

First, they ARE exploits. Rocket himself made it pretty clear that third person view wasn't working the way he wants it to.

 

Second, why would fixing the exploits in third person NOT make it a better game for people who play in third person view? If they truly prefer that view to first person, it wouldn't matter if they can't look over walls and around corners anymore....right?

 

 

That doesn't mean it's an "exploit".  I'm sorry but some of you guys are just so wound tight that you're missing the point.  Making zombies appear out of thin air ruins the game for the vast majority of players that use it.  Not sure how to express that any better.  I'd really like to see someone offer a better solution other than that or the contextual camera angle.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Nope, thats not correct, third person view is third person view. It's built in by purpose and intention. If you guys refuse to use it, it's one and only your problem. Stop calling it an exploit. This is bs.

 

Oh? So, the yet to be released DayZ standalone intends to let you look around corners and over walls? Strange how the first post of this thread includes so many quotes from Rocket implying otherwise.

 

I use it in the mod, I've already said that. But, this isn't about me as a player, it's about me as an armchair game developer. From a design perspective, the unrealistic stuff you can currently do in third person view really influences the players behavior. It's similar to the kill notifications, score boards, nameplates, and other things that remove doubt from a players mind. If you don't have to walk 500m and check a dead body, you won't. If you don't have to check corners because you can see over the wall, you won't. A player learns the system and uses it as best he can.

 

When I learned about DayZ from a thread on the Project Reality forums, I saw something different. I saw a game trying to put all those doubts back into a players mind. I saw a game where uncertainty causes emotion. Never knowing what's just around the corner, waiting to get you.

 

I don't mind the discussion, and heated debate, but enough with the "you guys just want it your way!" bullshit. Using first person now in the mod on a first person server could NEVER be compared to the standalone going first person.

[SMLE 39]

First, they ARE exploits. Rocket himself made it pretty clear that third person view wasn't working the way he wants it to.

 

Second, why would fixing the exploits in third person NOT make it a better game for people who play in third person view? If they truly prefer that view to first person, it wouldn't matter if they can't look over walls and around corners anymore....right?

If a majority of 3rd person view players came here and wanted change then yes I would agree change is needed but their not complaining only a minority of the first person players are here complaining about servers the given the choice would not play on , go figure .

Maybe we could rename this thread to something like Server availability for minority play styles it seems to be the main worry for 1st person players here .

Choice Say it again mother^%$# I dare you

[SMLE 39]

A question.

 

Does everyone who plays 3rd person jump into 1st person during combat, or at least when firing at someone?

 

And if so, why? Surely not because it is easier to shoot in 1st person??

Depends on the situation if im taking carefull aim I will always go first person , Ive had a bit to do with firearms over the years and it just feels right , but on other occasions when things get really close and in your face ill shoot from 3rd person , see choice again isn't it good .

Choice is good

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

If a majority of 3rd person view players came here and wanted change then yes I would agree change is needed but their not complaining only a minority of the first person players are here complaining about servers the given the choice would not play on , go figure .

Maybe we could rename this thread to something like Server availability for minority play styles it seems to be the main worry for 1st person players here .

Choice Say it again mother^%$# I dare you

 

The under populated first person mod servers show that given the choice, the majority of players have gravitated towards the more informative(for lack of an agreeable term) of the two.

 

I'm not worried that first person servers will be empty in the standalone if third person continues. I'm worried that DayZ will be a worse game because of it.

 

Fuck choice, I want a good game.

[SMLE 39]

Why and how are you turning this into a tactics discussion? As a player, YES deal with the exploit. Use it, defend against it, sure.

 

But, when we're talking about game development, living with an exploit is out of the question. You don't keep exploits in the game just to make it more difficult or easy for the player. That's just bad design.

That would be true if you were talking about an exploit , but we are not are we , we are talking about a feature of 3rd person view that you do not have to use simply by playing on a 1st person server .

Choice not the easy way but the right way

[SMLE 39]

The under populated first person mod servers show that given the choice, the majority of players have gravitated towards the more informative(for lack of an agreeable term) of the two.

 

I'm not worried that first person servers will be empty in the standalone if third person continues. I'm worried that DayZ will be a worse game because of it.

 

Fuck choice, I want a good game.

We all want a good game its just some of the fine points were having trouble with :)

Choice is good

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Here's the thing. More then a year ago before DayZ totally exploded rocket fed on delicious tears from frustrated gamers not used to the brutal an unforgiving experience his anti-game offered. This made me interested and literally drew me back to PC gaming.

Now, a year later, every gaming magazine have their eyes set on the SA and thousands upon thousands are following the progress. My worries are that this has made rocket to start compromising his original vision and second guess what DayZ should be, even if not intentionally.

FPV or TPV is related to this. Earlier rocket would probably just do it his way and post silly memes when anyone complained but now, maybe, he feels the need to please more people. There is alot of pressure for this game to be good and that means that mainstream gamers has to like the design desicions, even if they water down the experience. I just hope rocket will make the game his way and how HE wants it to be, no matter how the end result might be. He has done so far, and I have liked every decision he has made so far.

In short: I want the sweet delicious tears back. Those were interesting times. Make us cry rocket.

 

 

Exactly.  A watered down DayZ would be pretty much FPS so a bunch of CoD kids could play it the way they want.  I hope Rocket bucks the establishment and offers something different. So what if a bunch of FPS kiddies don't like it.

[SmashT 10907]

Exactly.  A watered down DayZ would be pretty much FPS so a bunch of CoD kids could play it the way they want.  I hope Rocket bucks the establishment and offers something different. So what if a bunch of FPS kiddies don't like it.

 

Insulting people that don't share your viewpoint doesn't help your argument.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I'm just going to leave this here. I posted it in the dead poll thread. It pretty much sums up my feelings on all of this nonsense.

 

There's no disagreeing with who will have the upper hand in that given situation but come on now, wtf would you be in first in that situation if third is available?

Properly using the third person camera can take skill, but only if the map is designed with that type of pvp in mind. From my experience, the maps in Arma are simply not designed for this type of pvp. Third, in DayZ at least, is especially useful against the environment. Unfortunately for the view, the game has morphed into a pure pvp fest, for any reason we'd like to mention, and those of us still kicking about are so experienced that zombies offer no threat at all. Blop, blop, zombie down. Anyone alive for an hour has a weapon ready to take gobs of zombies unless they make a very stupid mistake.

Which brings me to the main complaint I've seen from FP guys. Nearly every person from the FP camp that I've debated view the camera as a cheat in PvP. Occasionally a guy will say "but it adds more immersion and tension!!!" Yes to immersion, hands down, no debate on that, but I absolutely disagree with the tension aspect when it comes to PvP. I've made poorly structured arguments against that before but the point still stands. Not knowing if someone is watching you is about as realistic as possible in a game like this. Knowing someone can be watching you from just about anywhere adds a tremendous amount of tension, something the FP guys seem to resist and just say "someone must be cheating!!!"

Was the mod meant to be an endless deathmatch of 50 cals? Is the SA meant to be that? I say no, simply by the changes Rocket has mentioned. If it was meant to be a big ass deathmatch between players, zombies wouldn't be necessary at all and loot would rotate while floating in the air with a giant red aura around it. Oh, and it would probably be timed if the loot dropped from a player to encourage people to make a break for good loot.. to encourage more PvP.

That's not how it works and the damaging loot and limited ammo of the SA suggests our goal shouldn't be all about racking up kills. Do we really want to play another deathmatch game?

The FP argument is firmly rooted in PvP. I can go play a FP PvP game anywhere. I want a challenging environment and the tension brought on by player interactions other than shoot on sight.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/?p=1449901

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Enough with the pro choice propaganda!

 

LET DAYZ LIVE! DON'T ABORT YOUR VISION ROCKET!

[SMLE 39]

Exactly.  A watered down DayZ would be pretty much FPS so a bunch of CoD kids could play it the way they want.  I hope Rocket bucks the establishment and offers something different. So what if a bunch of FPS kiddies don't like it.

I don't agree why cant we have the two server options and then everybody can come along for the ride .

its not us or them its we the people who want this game to be all it can be .

Choice is excellent

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Insulting people that don't share your viewpoint doesn't help your argument.

Eh? I didn't mean to. I though many of us were in agreement on that. Or it could it be that multiple points of view are absolutely equal and that claiming someone is "exploiting" or "cheating" is just as offensive as calling someone a CoDkiddie?