Ammo scarcity

[Dagwood 680]

I've seen a few suggestions on the forums to make ammo more scarce to reduce the ease/tendency with which survivors kill one another. Some have agreed and some have argued that loot scarcity would just promote more killing to attain gear (whether it is on sight or not).

I'm curious as to why people believe one way or the other.

To keep this from regressing into another anti-KOS thread, let's assume that we are talking about the SA (infected will likely need to be killed to neutralize the threat), and we are not talking about players already in organized groups. We are talking about (the now rare) solo players.

I personally believe that if the infected are more "intelligent" and cannot be beaten with bugs (walking indoors, getting stuck in trees, hill bug etc.), making ammo rare would almost necessitate cooperation to enter higher intensity areas. But that is just my opinion. Let's hear your thoughts.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Dagwood

[kealthkewk 14]

In Warz ammo is VERY rare, not because player shouldn't kill each other it's because the Devs. wan't $$$ because you can buy ammo for irl $$$. 

Anyway I believe you cannot stop the kill on sight thing in this game, it's like taking a short cut. If you just started and got like a cz 550 and see a well geared player at distance you shot him, saving you hours of work searching for the gear you've now got in 1 min. It's sad but true. There's no realistic way to stop the killing on sight, you don't lose anything on doing it, you get rewarded with a cool bandit skin. It's just not gonna work. And I think that's good, because that's what you would do IRL if a zomb apocalypse hit earth, you would never walk up to a unknown guy alone. Those guys die the first week that's it. 

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

I think with smarter, harder zombies, and the ability to build bases, people will generally cooperate on a small group level more often. I think that with scarce ammo and a common enemy, kill on sight will decrease. But it won't go away. There's always going to be players who want to hunt other people for their gear or for the fun, regardless of zombie difficulty and ammo scarcity. But those people are going to have to work a lot damn harder to pull off their kills.

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

I consider myself a solo player (but will team up with anyone friendly, thus Stray Dog) and I don't KOS already.  But I would think ammo scarcity (not nessicarily scarcity of other equipment/goods) would limit at least a little bit of KOS after a while.  I'm guessing the 'average' KOSer (one who kills on sight because they've been killed so many times) as well as 'real' bandits (ones that just want your gear, not really caring if your alive or not at the end of the day) Will at least not kill on sight (possibly later if they determine a true threat) when they run into someone, bandits will probably rob the person they run into.  Even the ones who KOS 'fer teh lulz' will eventually go away or wise up when they have to do a lot more work for their 'jollies'.

Say you've got an AK74 and run into someone with a M16 and you get into a firefight.  You win but you're down to 14 rounds of ammo, just used up your last morphine and bandage and only have a can of food and soda each.  You go and loot the body, guy ran out of Ammo for his M16 during the fight and were attacking you with a makarov with 2 clips left when killed.  He had two cans of food and NVG on him, but because of the firefight a couple rounds hit his equipment so both cans are FUBAR and the NVG are broken.  Was that firefight worth it now that there's a group of zombies approaching to investigate the gunshots?

Edited August 16, 2013 by BigMike

[TheLastEmp 295]

I consider myself a solo player (but will team up with anyone friendly, thus Stray Dog) and I don't KOS already.  But I would think ammo scarcity (not nessicarily scarcity of other equipment/goods) would limit at least a little bit of KOS after a while.  I'm guessing the 'average' KOSer (one who kills on sight because they've been killed so many times) as well as 'real' bandits (ones that just want your gear, not really caring if your alive or not at the end of the day) Will at least not kill on sight (possibly later if they determine a true threat) when they run into someone, bandits will probably rob the person they run into.  Even the ones who KOS 'fer teh lulz' will eventually go away or wise up when they have to do a lot more work for their 'jollies'.

Say you've got an AK74 and run into someone with a M16 and you get into a firefight.  You win but you're down to 14 rounds of ammo, just used up your last morphine and bandage and only have a can of food and soda each.  You go and loot the body, guy ran out of Ammo for his M16 during the fight and were attacking you with a makarov with 2 clips left when killed.  He had two cans of food and NVG on him, but because of the firefight a couple rounds hit his equipment so both cans are FUBAR and the NVG are broken.  Was that firefight worth it now that there's a group of zombies approaching to investigate the gunshots?

My beans.  Have them please.

[Skat3rat 1633]

I consider myself a solo player (but will team up with anyone friendly, thus Stray Dog) and I don't KOS already.  But I would think ammo scarcity (not nessicarily scarcity of other equipment/goods) would limit at least a little bit of KOS after a while.  I'm guessing the 'average' KOSer (one who kills on sight because they've been killed so many times) as well as 'real' bandits (ones that just want your gear, not really caring if your alive or not at the end of the day) Will at least not kill on sight (possibly later if they determine a true threat) when they run into someone, bandits will probably rob the person they run into.  Even the ones who KOS 'fer teh lulz' will eventually go away or wise up when they have to do a lot more work for their 'jollies'.

Say you've got an AK74 and run into someone with a M16 and you get into a firefight.  You win but you're down to 14 rounds of ammo, just used up your last morphine and bandage and only have a can of food and soda each.  You go and loot the body, guy ran out of Ammo for his M16 during the fight and were attacking you with a makarov with 2 clips left when killed.  He had two cans of food and NVG on him, but because of the firefight a couple rounds hit his equipment so both cans are FUBAR and the NVG are broken.  Was that firefight worth it now that there's a group of zombies approaching to investigate the gunshots?

 

Good illustration.  Having less bullets will only lower KoS because people don't want to spend their valuable bullets.  As I've said countless times, if KoS wants to be lowered, a means that would actually make players feel guilty for killing someone is the only possible way.  People will continue to KoS for gear and other reasons if they don't feel bad about killing another player.

 

The only thing that having less ammunition will truly affect, is how much harder it will be to survive.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Skat3rat

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

Good illustration.  Having less bullets will only lower KoS because people don't want to spend their valuable bullets.  As I've said countless times, if KoS wants to be lowered, a means that would actually make players feel guilty for killing someone is the only possible way.  People will continue to KoS for gear and other reasons if they don't feel bad about killing another player.

 

The only thing that having less ammunition will truly affect, is how much harder it will be to survive.

I would agree, to really lower KOS they would have to make you feel guilty about killing people, but that's pretty difficult to be honest.  A pile of dead bodies in real life would only make me feel a bit nauseous (because of the smell, pile of dead dogs and someone's going to die by my hand), a pile of pixels representing dead bodies won't really impact everyone.  The only time I've felt guilty about killing someone in any game (is usually with NPCs) is if they're 'good guys' or 'innocent', or some other tug at your heartstrings moment, (kill someone, turn around and a little kid asks "Have you seen my daddy?").  Ammo scarcity will probably only make a few more people wounder if its worth shooting someone (or get VERY good at shooting), but it's still worth a try.  But really the only thing that will stop KOS is the players themselves.

Once a while ago, I was looting the airtower at Balota and just about to leave.  Guy ran past me and upstairs yelling friendly and had 10 or so zombies following.  Waited for him to clear the line of fire and started shooting zombies.  Zombies dead I walk up the stairs to check on the guy (pretty sure I had my gun lowered) and get shot in the head.  Bitched in side and he claimed I shot him first.  So we'll probably never get rid of KOS completely.

[Skat3rat 1633]

Once a while ago, I was looting the airtower at Balota and just about to leave.  Guy ran past me and upstairs yelling friendly and had 10 or so zombies following.  Waited for him to clear the line of fire and started shooting zombies.  Zombies dead I walk up the stairs to check on the guy (pretty sure I had my gun lowered) and get shot in the head.  Bitched in side and he claimed I shot him first.  So we'll probably never get rid of KOS completely.

 

Yeah something like that happened to me yesterday on DayZ Zero.  I had just finished looting the hospital when a play ran in.  I told him I was friendly and he replied saying he was friendly too.  I told him I was trying to get my hero skin and I asked him if he needed blood.  He proceeds to turn around and shoot me with his Winchester, while declaring over direct chat that I shouldn't trust anyone in DayZ.  Smh

 

The problem with making a player feel bad about killing another player is that it's all pixels liked you stated.  I'll be honest, I hardly feel bad myself when I kill people, and I try to play as a Hero generally.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Skat3rat

[Dagwood 680]

He's right. Never trust anyone. But that doesn't mean you can't cooperate. You just need to always keep an eye on players that haven't EARNED your trust. Getting killed for trusting a stranger is your own fault.

[wild_man 4442]

you guys who make fantasy less ammo = less KoS :D

 

is opposite true thing, guys kill more for take any ammo from guys, is worth 3 bullet for one or two full mag ;)

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

...making ammo rare would almost necessitate cooperation to enter higher intensity areas. But that is just my opinion. Let's hear your thoughts.

That is indeed a fact that less ammo would cause less PvP. However, there should be almost no ammo for it to happen. If you would have ten bullets, you could still spend 2-3 of them attempting to kill someone who you think could also have some bullets. But if you would only have 3-4 bullets like the rest of the people in the server, you would not really attempt to risk wasting any of them and keep them for important things instead.

 

I however think that, as much as I could see from the devblogs, there will be indeed bullets. Maybe not as many as in the mod but enough to get into a firefight, which is fair enough for people to go for some PvP action.

[Skat3rat 1633]

you guys who make fantasy less ammo = less KoS :D

 

is opposite true thing, guys kill more for take any ammo from guys, is worth 3 bullet for one or two full mag ;)

 

The only problem is that, you don't know how much ammo the guy has on him.  He could have none or he could have a ton.  If he does have ammo he'll most likely use some of it to shoot back too.

 

If you miss your shot, well there went one bullet and possibly your chance to win a firefight.

[wild_man 4442]

The only problem is that, you don't know how much ammo the guy has on him.  He could have none or he could have a ton.  If he does have ammo he'll most likely use some of it to shoot back too.

 

If you miss your shot, well there went one bullet and possibly your chance to win a firefight.

you say 100% true :beans:

 

is gamble for sure ;)

 

if ammo is rare shit every guy take ammo he find so he don't find later one gun in elektro but leave ammo in balota :huh:

 

example I have ak, 1 mag, is guy with Winchester, I think 'ok, 8 bullet more, I try kill this guy for gamble' :(

 

if I make big fuck up and don't make kill this guy maybe win pvP :o

 

is good for him, he deserve :thumbsup:  also if I kill and he don't have ammo I make mistake next guy maybe kill me :o

 

low ammo is great system and I believe 100% KoS is increase if you make ammo or anything too much value :thumbsup:  ;)

[Skat3rat 1633]

you say 100% true :beans:

 

is gamble for sure ;)

 

if ammo is rare shit every guy take ammo he find so he don't find later one gun in elektro but leave ammo in balota :huh:

 

example I have ak, 1 mag, is guy with Winchester, I think 'ok, 8 bullet more, I try kill this guy for gamble' :(

 

if I make big fuck up and don't make kill this guy maybe win pvP :o

 

is good for him, he deserve :thumbsup:  also if I kill and he don't have ammo I make mistake next guy maybe kill me :o

 

low ammo is great system and I believe 100% KoS is increase if you make ammo or anything too much value :thumbsup:  ;)

 

Yes, I agree that making stuff more rare and valuable will probably only increase KoS if people have ammo.

 

As far as ammo goes, I think the KoS situations will be different for everybody.  You seem like you are willing to gamble and see if a player has ammo.  For myself, on top of the fact that when SA comes out I'll continue to play a survivor/hero, I don't really want to risk the ammo unless I know for a fact the guy has something that will make it worth it to shoot him.  Or, of course, if someone shoots at me I'll shoot back.

[oldfossil 59]

you guys who make fantasy less ammo = less KoS :D

is opposite true thing, guys kill more for take any ammo from guys, is worth 3 bullet for one or two full mag ;)

It depends on how hard is the environment you live. If your shot echoes between the hills and no or few more you are right, if indeed it calls an overwhelming horde of Z's or Infected or whatever you whant to name 'em I suppose that the matter rise to another level. Should be interesting to see the tactics developement in the latter case considering that we have right now under our eyes the first case...

[Bludy 324]

robbing someone actually requires much more skills and cold blood than killing the guy without a word..

if the ammo are rare you'll have survivors sticking with melee weapons and maybe handguns, while bandits will camp major towns..

 

the factors who lead to KoS in this game are imo:

 

1-i'm just spawned, i'll rush to cherno to quick loot and go bushes, killing everyone i see, cause i've been killed too many times

2-i'm just spawned, just find a rifle and kill someone who looted everything i could need

3-i'm in the north, paranoid and bored..just kill everyone i see before he does the same to me..

   a. especially if he has better gear

   b.especially if he has worse gear, because he could want mine

 

a correct use of voip and taking some precautions can lead to find some friendly player and maybe avoid the bloodbath, but these major factors above won't change with changing the ammo drop rate..

[dem0 1]

Ok, first I'll say that I'm very new to this game, and I think one of the big problems is that FAR too much time is spent running around with nothing, searching building after building, finding nothing.  I seriously just spent 2 hours running around w/ no map, searching building after building and found a few cans of soda, some bandages, and an empty 1911.  That's not even enough to sustain.  It's just irritating as hell to repeatedly find a pile of empty cans.  So, of COURSE you're going to kill on sight are you kidding me?  I just spent 2 hours and found nothing.  I'd much rather yolo charge with the chance of getting some decent gear than just "friendly" the guy and hope he doesn't kill me.  Even if I DO die, what have I lost?  An empty 1911, 2 soda cans, and some bandages. Psh!

 

On top of that, if you DO have gear, the bottom line is that you're not going to risk losing your stuff when you know there's a bunch of people out there not finding anything either.  You're like a walking treasure chest.  What, you're going to just cross your fingers that the guys not gonna shoot you, and send you back to square one?

 

Point being: item scarcity PERIOD is the cause of the global kos policy.  Why? Because it doesn't take half a brain to figure out that you're going to get way sicker gear, and have way more fun if you just merc up on the other players in the game, rather than endlessly droning around from empty can pile to empty can pile.  Even if you do die, who cares? You had nothing to lose anyways.  Also, it sucks 100 times worse to lose all the stuff you just spent 5 hours finding because some guy w/ a mak happened to catch you off guard.  If you looted your stuff, you really don't care as much because you didn't scrounge for hours trying to find it.

 

In my opinion, what they really need to do is change the way the items spawn entirely.  Item spawns shouldn't be limited to certain specific places, like they are now.  Of course, they would have to limit the volume hugely, but it's simply not fun to run from one farm, through a humongous forest, to another farm, and only encounter a few item spawns, which mostly have totally useless things.  Ideally, if you play for 2 hours, you should have, at the very least, a decent amount of ammo, and supplies to sustain yourself without having to run through a really busy area. 

 

Far, far too much of the map is filled with useless fluff, which only serves as a trap for noobs who don't know that only certain areas are even worth visiting.  This effect is exacerbated when you don't start with a map, and have zero idea where you are.  These vast useless areas not only create a time-wasting noob snare, they funnel experienced players into the limited number of useful places.  So fine, I can go into some busy city trying to find gear, and escape before someone unleashes montezumas revenge on me, but then what is the point of the egregious amount useless space between the few useful places other than to force me to spend literally hours traversing the map?  Surely, there can be a better use for it's existence than causing players to spend time gaining nothing. 

 

Why shoulnd't I be able to find a few things on the way?  Hell, maybe I find a rifle out in the woods on a very rare occasion.  Maybe if it wasn't so difficult to find anything players wouldn't be constantly kos-ing out of pure desperation when they know they'd be lucky to find a can of beans in the next 20 minutes of scrounging.  Reworking the item spawns could open up so many different kinds of metagame, and while players should feel desperate and greedy, at least then they could be confident that they'll find something useful while scrounging outside of big cities instead of just killing everyone they see.

[dem0 1]

making ammo rare would almost necessitate cooperation to enter higher intensity areas. But that is just my opinion. Let's hear your thoughts.

 

I totally agree with you on this.  However, then you run into the problem of being able to reasonably disperse zombies.  It makes much more sense that ammo is extremely rare, but then there's no way to get into those more densly populated areas.  Maybe making melee weapons more available could solve this problem, tho.

 

I dunno, my main problem is with how outrageously useless most of the map is.  Yeah, I get that it's supposed to be big, but nobody can argue that it's fun to run 1000 meters through empty woods, knowing that there's a good chance that there won't even be anything useful where they're going.

Edited August 18, 2013 by dem0

[Dagwood 680]

The size of the map wouldn't be such an issue if 3/4 of the server population wasn't packed into elektro and cherno. My public hive character at the moment is fully geared. I have been in the north for a few weeks and have only encounteted a half dozen other survivors/bandits. I can loot stary and NWAF and not see a soul. This is the problem. When you're afraid of another person making the trip from point B to point A while you go A to B, that 1k run becomes a task you must accomplish successfully. When you are all alone it is a running simulator.

Get off of the coast!!!

[Hetstaine 10852]

 

Point being: item scarcity PERIOD is the cause of the global kos policy. 

 

 

 

 

 When loot abounded it was also touted as the reason of rampant kos..because there was nothing to do after getting geared up so easily so pew pew. Now it has swung the other way, apparently anyway. You can still get well geared in under an hour... easily. The kos mentality is something that comes down to each and every players decisions, not the game, the players. I still meet people that do not kos and still pass people up north where we tread warily around each other but manage to go our own way. Of course i see a lot of kos as well but i try not to put myself in the situation where i am going to constantly get my ass handed to me and feel any need to kos, that's just too easy.

[Soupee 57]

I think the people who are more interested in surviving fail to understand the motivation for the folks running around the coast KoSing.  Less bullets don't matter to them, I don't think.  It's for the "thrill" of offing someone who has some sort of investment in their character.  Less bullets *might* make for less fresh spawn killing, but somehow I doubt even that will happen. 

 

If there can be a game mechanic that stops a player from getting their own corpse back.  And somehow stops them from being able to go back to their stashes of weapons/ammo/whatever else, maybe you'll get people to stop KoSing.  But my gut feeling is that if you stop those things, many of those players would be gone anyway.  Because the game isn't about survival to them (for the most part), it's about ending lives of invested survivors.

 

Good illustration.  Having less bullets will only lower KoS because people don't want to spend their valuable bullets.  As I've said countless times, if KoS wants to be lowered, a means that would actually make players feel guilty for killing someone is the only possible way.  People will continue to KoS for gear and other reasons if they don't feel bad about killing another player.

 

The only thing that having less ammunition will truly affect, is how much harder it will be to survive.

[Prion 61]

agree,ammo should be a lot more scarce. I'm OK with magazines being as common as they are, but they should be empty!  Once you get to a police precint  / military compound you should be able to load your magazines up if you can find a stash of cartridges in the caliber you need. 

[Dagwood 680]

It ceases to be a survival game when the means to prolonged survival are achieved right out of the gate. Less ammunition and a larger focus on melee weapons are key to preventing this IMO.

Survivors that are in premade units will always kill wanderers and other groups with extreme prejudice. This is the nature of the beast. But when it's a one on one situation and we're fighting with pistols and axes, cooperation or neutral encounters may become much more likely; although probably not the norm.

What the majority of the current player base WANTS and what this game NEEDS are not mutually exclusive in the slightest. We all WANT L85s and über leet gear, but if we ALL have that, the game continues to be a survivor games free for all.

Plus, if ammo is scarce, prolonged survival will be rewarded by the chance to gather more ammunition. Which means that the people congregating in elektro and cherno will be squabbling over axes and spare shotgun shells while the survivalists in the north will be gathering ammo and essentially the means to out-do their fresher counterparts.

Because a Lee-Enfield is just as effective at putting someone down as an M14 or DMR, the survivor equipped with the latter isn't actually at that much of an advantage. But if they are the only one with rifle cartridges, the balance swings dramatically in their favor.

If you are one of the people arguing that loot scarcity will lead to more KOS, can't you agree that it will also force players to invest more time into their character to reach a point where they can even effectively kill other players? If ammunition was REALLY rare; like, weapons never dropped with ammunition and maybe only one loaded magazine dropped per barracks, that sniper on elektro hill would probably be much less inclined to stay there for more than one or two kills an risk is hard earned rifle and ammunition.

[Bludy 324]

^^^ especially if he's bad at shooting...i remember countless shots from sniper hill..sometimes i was able to loot the whole elektro almost like the sniper wasn't there at all..but i must say that in my experience of lonewolf i died most of the times in hatchet vs gun, gun vs gun, double barrel vs gun, double barrel vs hatchet fights..unless you walk in military high risk/high traffic areas you'll get an enfield shot much more than a DMR one, the biggest part of the player base i think just goes from big towns to the first hills north or something like that..maybe i'm wrong though

[-Gews- 7443]

Hmm, I don't really see a problem from a realism perspective... look at the panicky ammo shortages in the US. :lol:

 

 

However in real life if you have a revolver and 3 rounds, you're still quite dangerous. In DayZ people would just laugh and mock while running in circles around you...

 

All manner of flying bullets need to be more of a threat. Until then I'm not sure if super scarce ammunition would work out so well...

Edited August 20, 2013 by Gews