DayZ SA - Hosting & Security

[gummy52 57]

You're right, and that's because it's impossible to control what someone does to a computer they own. The advantage of a game that runs mostly server side is that they don't own the computer the server is running on. That advantage goes out the window when people DO own the computer the server is running on. We go from "as secure as it could ever be" to "not secure at all". That is what worries me.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

So you want a subscription service or something?

[gummy52 57]

So you want a subscription service or something?

The bottom line is that there are four possible ways for the servers to be paid for.

• We pay a monthly fee
  
• We pay for our own servers
  
• Bohemia pays for the servers out of their profits
  
• Bohemia does what Valve does and sell meaningless trinkets like funny hats
  

Here's the problem with the first three

• No one wants to pay a monthly fee
  
• Allowing players to host their own servers opens up more ways to cheat
  
• Bohemia can not afford to pay for the servers for the next five to ten years
  

I don't think a subscription model would work at all for this MMO. I think the best answer is for Bohemia to host the servers and pay for the costs by selling items that do not give advantages. In online games people can and do pay for cosmetic items such as different hair styles or cooler looking clothes. I think that's a greatly superior alternative to their current plan.

Edited June 25, 2013 by gummy52

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Are you suggesting micro-transactions?

No actually I guess your not. You're basically suggesting some sort of vanity shop. I personally can't think of something I'd rather see less in DayZ or that strays further from the vision of DayZ Rocket has. Many gamers now days are very cynical when it comes to being charged for extra content after they've actually already bought the game itself, me included. Lot's of games have been using the model you describe for years and many gamers are now becoming wise to it and shying away from that type of model. It's been written about extensivley for the last year or so on some of the high-profile gaming sites.

Now don't take this personally because I know there's many people out there that share your general cynicism regarding DayZ but I can't help but think that if Rocket announced an online shop for vanity items upon release of the game you'd be one of the first to be crying "SCAM!" from the rooftops. Am I right?

I think I'll take my chances with the hackers cheers.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Fraggle

[gummy52 57]

Are you suggesting micro-transactions?

Do I think they should offer vanity, non advantageous, items as a way to pay for servers? Yes.

Do I think they should do it while the game is in Alpha? No.

I don't even think they should be doing a "paid alpha". They should do a closed beta and foot the minor hosting cost to do so. I mean, testers are doing them a favor, after all.

I can't help but think that if Rocket announced an online shop for vanity items upon release of the game you'd be one of the first to be crying "SCAM!" from the rooftops. Am I right?

I think you're editing your post too many times. It's like I said in my comment above. Everything changes when the game is a "paid alpha".

Edited June 24, 2013 by gummy52

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I don't think a subscription model would work at all for this MMO. I think the best answer is for Bohemia to host the servers and pay for the costs by selling items that do not give advantages. In online games people can and do pay for cosmetic items such as different hair styles or cooler looking clothes. I think that's a greatly superior alternative to their current plan.

hahaha Nice one. You ALMOST had me. hahah

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I think you're editing your post too many times. It's like I said in my comment above. Everything changes when the game is a "paid alpha".

Chill out. I was trying to put some thought into it. As always though you've managed to completely ignore every point I've raised in order to make another, oh well, can't say I didn't try and have a reasoned debate with you.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Fraggle

[gummy52 57]

Chill out. I was trying to put some thought into it. As always though you've managed to completely ignore every point I've raised in order to make another, oh well, can;t say i didn't try and have a reasoned debate with you.

You rewrote your post four times after I had already replied and call that a "reasoned debate"?

Edited June 24, 2013 by gummy52

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Oh shit.. it's an edit-off!

Edited June 24, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

You rewrote your post four times after I had already replied and call that a "reasoned debate"?

You're so argumentative it's ridiculous.

My "pointless one liner" was: "Are you suggesting micro-transactions". After re-reading your post I realised you weren't and gave you a longer answer.

Seriously I give up with you. I know our opinions are polar opposite but it's clear you'd rather snipe and make patronising comments than discuss the topic at hand. Have fun with your thread, I'm off.

*Edited for spelling

Edited June 24, 2013 by Fraggle

[gummy52 57]

You're so argumentative it's ridiculous.

My "pointless one liner" was: "Are you suggesting micro-transactions". After re-reading your post I realised you weren't and gave you a longer answer.

Seriously I give up with you. I know our opinions are polar opposite but it's clear you'd rather snipe and make patronising comments than discuss the topic at hand. Have fun with your thread, I'm off.

You made a post. I replied. You edited your post. Then you criticized mine for ignoring points that were made after I had already replied. You're the one sniping and causing conflict.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Maybe they can sell houses, safezones, and charge for clans. I think this is the best business model I've ever seen.

[Hetstaine 10852]

I could see Fraggles eye starting to pop from here, sorry Fraggs :D

I can see the points you have raised Gummy and to me they seem possibly valid, i say possibly because i am not fully familiar with how it all works, and i would imagine that the SA crew would have thought of your points from pretty much day 1. I also would think that the SA crew would obviously not be letting us all in on the complete setup so we are more than likely pissing in the wind at this stage.

Paying for vanity type shit won't affect me as i refuse to buy hairstyles of any crap like that, plus it would leave a sour taste in my mouth playing barbieZ :)

I reckon we just have to sit back and wait until it rolls out and see how it all works..or doesn't.

[tsandrey 379]

Oh look, it's the cheater troll gummy52 again. Why is he still not banned?

[gummy52 57]

I can see the points you have raised Gummy and to me they seem possibly valid, i say possibly because i am not fully familiar with how it all works, and i would imagine that the SA crew would have thought of your points from pretty much day 1. I also would think that the SA crew would obviously not be letting us all in on the complete setup so we are more than likely pissing in the wind at this stage.

I think a necessary point that people need to consider is that there are a limited number of ways to implement an online game and the model you choose has a list of weaknesses. It doesn't matter how many angles they consider or how many possibilities they consider. The model they choose will always have the same weaknesses. That's the point and that's why we don't need more information. We know the model they're choosing and therefore we know its weaknesses.

Now then, I absolutely agree that the developers are going to know the weaknesses of this model. I'm sure their lead programmer is a very capable man. But the developers are not always in charge and the intentions of men who wear suits are not as divine as one might hope.

Let's assume Bohemia is a company and their number one goal is profit. Now let's say you're Bohemia and you have thousands of people willing to pay hundreds of dollars per month to provide a service necessary for your product to function. Okay, so here you are, a suit working at Bohemia, and someone working under you raises a concern that cheating becomes easier under this model. What's the number one question you, this suit working at Bohemia, ask? You're going to ask "will that affect sales?".

Will it? Will more cheating affect sales? I post threads like these because I really, really dislike cheating. I want to play the game legitimately and want others to as well. But does anyone else share my concerns? When I read remarks such as "I think I'll take my chances with the hackers" by a representative of the DayZ consumer base, I can't help but feel that very few others seriously care about cheating. If it doesn't affect sales, then what reasons do they have to use a more secure model? I mean, look at DayZMod. Cheating is as easy as 1, 2, 3. It sold millions.

We can't just sit back and demand "we want less hacking". We need to be more specific and we need to demand that Bohemia host their own dedicated servers.

[beastoverlord 574]

Oh look, it's the cheater troll gummy52 again. Why is he still not banned?

I am actually quite surprised at Gummy. He is providing good and constructive criticism. He has seen a potential problem and is giving lists of solutions. I see nothing wrong with this discussion and it is by far Gummy's best set of posts. I really doubt he would take the time to type out by far the longest and most thought out responses just to troll. Since I have little to no knowledge of computers I'll just keep reading this and see where it goes.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

I have no problems paying a monthly subscription. I've never dealt with hacking or cheating in any game I've ever paid a subscription for. Is it possible? Maybe, but I still haven't experienced it in all my years of gaming.

Reason people switch to microtransaction is they realized they can make more money off people then by charging them a monthly fee. Just look at how much money people make on all those stupid phone app games, or facebook games and you can see for yourself.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Dreygar

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Will it? Will more cheating affect sales?

Yes. As proven by the mod. It would still be thriving and selling copies of Arma if a bunch of scriptkiddies hadn't ruined it.

edit: had to fix that before someone used it to derail.

Edited June 25, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Who has time to do their hair in a zombie apocalypse? A horde of people flipped out over cans of muffins. I'd really hope the same people would flip out over one dollar pink Goku hair. Purchasable skins or clothing defeats the entire purpose of looting. If the clothing or vanity items had zero attributes, like item slots or attributes that effect the player, why would anyone buy them when they'd likely ditch it the second they found an item with pockets? If they did have attributes like that, why isn't that pay to win again? Might as well buy that black down jacket with 20 pockets instead of having to find one. This too brings up a problem the WarZ tards walked into. Can these items be lost? If so, why buy them? They'd have to make them cheap to encourage sales of something they could lose which would make pay-to-win even cheaper. If they can't be looted, imagine the shit storm over that...

Microtransactions are the sewage of modern gaming. I find them utterly repulsive to the core of my being. I may be a minority in that but I'm almost certain there are key people who feel somewhat the same way. I can't imagine they'd even consider such a thing after what's gone down over the past year.

And if BI and Rocket were interested in nothing but the money they could have just repackaged the mod a year ago and reaped huge profits. Not going that route should say something very clearly about what their goals are.

And yes, I'll take my chances with "professional" hackers who'll likely get their servers blacklisted anyway over a ruined DayZ with microtransactions.

[gummy52 57]

And yes, I'll take my chances with "professional" hackers who'll likely get their servers blacklisted anyway over a ruined DayZ with microtransactions.

I'm going to take a leap of faith and say that how you feel has much to do with this quote; "who'll likely get their servers blacklisted anyway". If that were a possibility then I wouldn't have started this topic. Going back to the points I raised at the end of page 1 of this thread, cheating server side with a machine that players have root access to can easily be done without detection and in secrecy. If someone abuses it and tries making their self invincible then, yeah, they'll get black listed -- but you need to consider things that can be done quietly that no one will notice, like taking a quick peak at where all the vehicles are.

Okay, so you dislike the model where Bohemia hosts the servers by selling things. Context is everything.

Selling things when players are already paying for the servers would be a horrible money grab. I would be completely against that. Selling things that give unfair advantages is what we call "Pay 2 Win". I would be completely against that. Selling things before the game is finished would be a horrible money grab. I would be completely against that.

However, selling things because its necessary for the game's health is not a horrible money grab. That is the point. It is necessary. It is necessary that Bohemia host the servers. It is necessary that this game be as secure as possible. It's in the game's nature. It needs to be more secure than a FPS server. It needs to be, at the very least, as secure as every other MMO on the market.

Edited June 25, 2013 by gummy52

[RollingLizard1 33]

Ok how about this there is a monthly fee but at the same time there is free play. Let me explain, the game after purchase will always be free to play, but if you pay a subscription fee you would receive say a special cache site of maybe 30 slots. Now this cache is lockable meaning only the owner can access it. It will be permanent and can be moved around in the game. Could take this Idea to the next level and say the higher subscription fee you pay the more storage space you have, within reason.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I'm going to take a leap of faith and say that how you feel has much to do with this quote; "who'll likely get their servers blacklisted anyway". If that were a possibility then I wouldn't have started this topic. Going back to the points I raised at the end of page 1 of this thread, cheating server side with a machine that players have root access to can easily be done without detection and in secrecy. If someone abuses it and tries making their self invincible then, yeah, they'll get black listed -- but you need to consider things that can be done quietly that no one will notice, like taking a quick peak at where all the vehicles are.

I'm going to go ahead and re-quote the basis of my original suggestion.

Context is everything. Selling things when players are already paying for the servers would be a horrible money grab. I would be completely against that. Selling things that give unfair advantages is what we call "Pay 2 Win". I would be completely against that. However, selling things as a necessity is not a horrible money grab.

That is the point, after all. It is necessary that this game be as secure as possible. It's in the game's nature. It needs to be more secure than a FPS server. It needs to be as secure as every other MMO on the market.

Then allow me to ask, what do you propose they sell? Hats? Answer the question I posed earlier. Can they be looted? Can they be lost? Now answer this, how much for the black hat? How much for the camo boonie? I bet the bright orange hunters hat is the cheapest right? I don't think a micro-transaction system that works for Team Fortress can work in a game like DayZ so let's brainstorm some items they could sell that wouldn't impact the game. Jewelry. Socks. Undershirts. How about clan logo placement on armbands. No, that would impact teamplay and give some teams an advantage over others. Slightly different paint jobs on vehicles you're in? As long as you couldn't actually pick the color or buy them all until you had the one that blends in the best then that might work. I'm open to suggestions. Those were honest attempts.

Since we're just guessing what the shadows on the wall actually are we might as well take it even further.

So MrL33tD34th decides to setup a server. Having a solid background in networking, programming, and general awesomeness, he finds a way to hack the game. Terrific for him! He wants to hide his hacking but he knows it's probably not a good idea to block the hive as that might raise some flags. Now let's assume MrL33tD34th's Super Happy Thoughts server spoofs the data leaving to the main hive and whatever anti-cheat system the game has. Still great for him. He was able to spawn in all the gear and guns he could possibly want and endlessly chomp on beans while sitting on his throne of noob bones in Cherno. Well played MrL33tD34th. He's quite the skilled fellow.

How will he ever get blacklisted. Again, since we're just taking small bit of info and running wild with it we can assume players come to his server, see people getting turned into jello, and leave after picking up a can of tuna. I wonder what the main hive would think this. I'd imagine a simple query of the database would suggest something funny was going on on MrL33tD34th's Super Happy Thoughts server as the players leaving never seem to match the data on record. Let's say MrL33tD34th found a way to mask only his own data. Well played MrL33tD34th. You sure are sharp. What happens when endless noobs get repeatedly killed by MrL33tD34th and the main database can't figure out who killed them. Hrm..... seems a bit fishy don't you think. Luckily he made it look like the hundreds of people he ground up with his fully automatic 1000m shotgun appear to be suicides. Wait a second.. MrL33tD34th's Super Happy Thoughts server sure has a lot of suicides...

Point is, this isn't the mod. Hiding this isn't going to be easy. Blacklisting servers and even the people who rent them wouldn't be incredibly hard to do if the initiative is taken and the devs take it seriously. We really need to get more info on how this operation is going to run before jumping to conclusions.

(p.s. don't forget to answer the questions before the absurdity, thanks)

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Ok how about this there is a monthly fee but at the same time there is free play. Let me explain, the game after purchase will always be free to play, but if you pay a subscription fee you would receive say a special cache site of maybe 30 slots. Now this cache is lockable meaning only the owner can access it. It will be permanent and can be moved around in the game. Could take this Idea to the next level and say the higher subscription fee you pay the more storage space you have, within reason.

= pay to win

[gummy52 57]

Then allow me to ask, what do you propose they sell? Hats? Answer the question I posed earlier. Can they be looted? Can they be lost? Now answer this, how much for the black hat? How much for the camo boonie?

You named loose suggestions yourself in all of a few minutes. I seriously doubt that Bohemia could not come up with things to sell that give no advantages and I see no reason why they couldn't map out which of them can be looted naturally or lost on death. I don't think they would need to exactly copy Valve to do it, either. I also believe there are a lot of people out there who would pay a big price for something silly like their character having Goku styled hair. So I'm going to politely say that I won't propose what they sell because the specifics are inconsequential if they orchestrate it in a way that is inconsequential to players.

Now then, you still seem to think that abusive server administrators are very likely to get caught.

Still great for him. He was able to spawn in all the gear and guns he could possibly want and endlessly chomp on beans while sitting on his throne of noob bones in Cherno. Well played MrL33tD34th. He's quite the skilled fellow.

I want you to consider this. Why does it have to be that extreme? In a game like this you don't have to go to such extremes to have a huge advantage. My suggested example was the cheater taking a quick peak at where all of the vehicles are. If someone tried telling the central server to give his character a bunch of gear all at once then a red flag probably would go up. But, again, you don't need to do something that extreme to get an unfair advantage.

[RollingLizard1 33]

= pay to win

I don't see it as pay to win, but the selling of virtual real estate, which is done in a number of online games. I see that building homes is available in some version of DayZ, My guess would be that all serious players would choose the subscription to get the cache thereby negating any advantage it would give a player. Leaving free play to players not really in to the game. I also play SecondLife where I pay a monthly fee, where I own virtual land, where I build, script and sell items. Where the money earned in game actually translates to real US currency and provides me with a nice income. I would be willing to pay a monthly fee for server use as long as there was something I was getting for my money as opposed to playing for free and as long as the benefit was the same for all players that paid the fee such as a cache I do not see it giving any individual an advantage over any other paying players. But still leave the play for free option as well.