Many reasons why we need the bandit, survivor, and hero skins back.

[JayTee13 1]

I have a lot of things to say but I'm just going to skip to the point so hopefully someone from the DayZ crew read this :) You're going to want to read all this.

Reason 1: It's hard to tell who's more likely to shoot you , help you, or be cautious about. I've been shot at multiple times by people I thought may be friendly.

Reason 2: How else will we know how to keep track of our humanity? How will we know EXACTLY whether we're good evil or somewherei n between with no humanity meter.

Reason 3: I understand bandits have less camouflage but that matters very slightly since it's extremely hard to spot just about anyone hiding in grass anyways. But that's a price of being a psychopath.

Reason 4: It takes away the pros and cons of taking a side.

Ex: Cons. Being a bandit causes you to be shot on sight by a lot of people but that's realistic because you're a known killer. Pros. You strike fear and suspense when a survivor sees you maybe in a distance or point blank with the suspense of knowing they might die and having to start over again. Especially on no respawn servers. Pro 2: If your murder/ raid is successful you get the dead guys stuff which is like a jackpot in this game.

Ex 2: 1 Pros Being a hero may not benefit you but it will benefit others and helps keep a little decency and control of who you would be. 2 Not to mention people may want to help you in return of your services as in having your back or giving you a reward (happened to me multiple times because I am one of the few good guys left) 3 if you've ever played fallout 3 you'd know your good deeds have rewards and people with be grateful for the effort you put to help people (like I said happened to me numerous times) . Cons: People may take your kindness for a weakness and god knows bad guys don't like good guys.

Reason 4: Skins and their looks don't just define who you are. It matches your characters personality as well. Bandits dress like evil psychos and survivalists. Regular characters dress as people just trying to survive day by day. Heroes dress like they're here to help. If you know what they look like you most likely know their intentions.

Reason 5: A lot of people have been complaining since they were removed. And I doubt many people were happy about this.

Reason 6: This whole game is highly based on trust and it makes it extremely harder on who you want to trust. I mean think about it before they were removed would you rather trust the guy looking like a psychopath hiding his identity with a full face turban/ski mask. Or the guy with a backpack full of medical supplies dressed like a normal person in civilian cothing trying to survive with a sense of humanity.

Reason 7: The new skins look absolutely awful :P. No offense I mean I love this game more than ANY other zombie game or maybe even game I've played but... c'mon man lol.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Have I missed something? Aren't the bandit/hero skins in the mod already?

Edit;

"Reason 2: How else will we know how to keep track of our humanity? How will we know EXACTLY whether we're good evil or somewherei n between with no humanity meter."

People have guns in real life. People kill each other in real life. People still don't suddenly warp into a certain style of clothing depending on their actions.

If you kill someone in self-defense in DayZ, 3 out of 5 times you will LOSE humanity, simply because the other guy didn't hit you before you took them down. Same goes for real life, you are not a bad person if you shoot someone who broke into your house at night, even if they were unarmed. It's perfectly legal at least in the US. (And someone who breaks into other people's houses at any time of day is not going to have good intentions. Or they're very wrong int he head otherwise.)

Edit2; I read the rest of the post, and I have a bit more to say on a few points, but I'll come back to type more because I'm sitting in a very cramped space on a bus.. (But for example, you have "Example 4" two times.)

Edit3; Hokay, let's redo my post properly this time.

I have a lot of things to say but I'm just going to skip to the point so hopefully someone from the DayZ crew read this :) You're going to want to read all this. You don't know me.

Reason 1: It's hard to tell who's more likely to shoot you , help you, or be cautious about. I've been shot at multiple times by people I thought may be friendly. Well maybe you should not be as trusting, then? Sadly the DayZ community isn't the greatest as a whole. In-game, at least. The game is about difficulty and player-on-player interaction, not Left 4 Dead.

Reason 2: How else will we know how to keep track of our humanity? How will we know EXACTLY whether we're good evil or somewherei n between with no humanity meter. Again, DayZ's aim is to completely remove the interface -- or as much of it as at all possible. I have a strong feeling/hope that even the thirst/hunger/blood indicators will eventually be removed in the Standalone and somehow indicated by some indirect means. (Like growling stomach for hunger.)

Reason 3: I understand bandits have less camouflage but that matters very slightly since it's extremely hard to spot just about anyone hiding in grass anyways. But that's a price of being a psychopath. This is a statement, not a reason as to why the skins should be "brought back." (Which, by the way, are still in the DayZ mod.) And even then, if you're fighting for your life in a disease-ridden world with scarce supplies of food, water, shelter, and medical equipment, you will probably kill some people in your lifetime. This does not make you a psychopath. Basically, what you're saying, is that every country has trained psychopaths, armed with military-grade weapons, explosives, and armored vehicles. (I'm talking about soldiers, of course.)

Reason 4: It takes away the pros and cons of taking a side. Having bandit/hero skins REMOVES pros and cons of TAKING A SIDE? Okay. Someone else can spend their time arguing about this. Though I like to assume you just forgot what you were talking about for a second, like with the last point.

Ex: Cons. Being a bandit causes you to be shot on sight by a lot of people but that's realistic because you're a known killer. Pros. You strike fear and suspense when a survivor sees you maybe in a distance or point blank with the suspense of knowing they might die and having to start over again. Especially on no respawn servers. Pro 2: If your murder/ raid is successful you get the dead guys stuff which is like a jackpot in this game.

Ex 2: 1 Pros Being a hero may not benefit you but it will benefit others and helps keep a little decency and control of who you would be. 2 Not to mention people may want to help you in return of your services as in having your back or giving you a reward (happened to me multiple times because I am one of the few good guys left) 3 if you've ever played fallout 3 you'd know your good deeds have rewards and people with be grateful for the effort you put to help people (like I said happened to me numerous times) . Cons: People may take your kindness for a weakness and god knows bad guys don't like good guys. After reading these two examples, and considering your 4th example, it almost sounds like you want the skins REMOVED, not ADDED.

Reason 4: Skins and their looks don't just define who you are. It matches your characters personality as well. Bandits dress like evil psychos and survivalists. A smart bandit isn't going to dress up like a god damn mad man. A smart bandit would get the kind of clothing he would be hard to spot in, or something that didn't make him look very threatening. (Assuming he had a group to back him up as he baited survivors into an ambush. Regular characters dress as people just trying to survive day by day. Again, why would you walk around in some bright jeans and a derpy jacket that doesn't "break your form" at all? (As camo was designed to break the human form to the human eye, making them harder to spot in specific terrain. Heroes dress like they're here to help. If you know what they look like you most likely know their intentions. What exactly does a helpful person dress up like? Think real life. That creepy guy walking with his head down and the hood of his black hoodie up over his head could VERY easily turn out to be a really nice guy if you spoke with him, whereas that girl with short hair and a pretty, girlish jacket might turn out to be a total bitch who would punch you in the gut for getting within an arm's reach.

Reason 5: A lot of people have been complaining since they were removed. And I doubt many people were happy about this. Just because people complain after something changes doesn't mean that it's a bad change. People simply don't like sudden changes, because they're thrown into an environment they're insecure about. Just look at Youtube, back BEFORE the updates started to completely break the site down. People complained because they didn't like the new layouts even though they actually were better to use, it just took a day or two to get used to. Just like with the skin system changing.

Reason 6: This whole game is highly based on trust and it makes it extremely harder on who you want to trust. I mean think about it before they were removed would you rather trust the guy looking like a psychopath hiding his identity with a full face turban/ski mask. Or the guy with a backpack full of medical supplies dressed like a normal person in civilian cothing trying to survive with a sense of humanity. My head hurts too much to answer this one, again.

Reason 7: The new skins look absolutely awful :P. No offense I mean I love this game more than ANY other zombie game or maybe even game I've played but... c'mon man lol. What? So do you want the bandit/hero skins to be removed or "added back?" Come on, man.

Redness for justice.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But regardless of all that talk let's look at it from a practical stand-point. (It should sound more reasonable than those silly points the OP was trying to make.)

DayZ, the mod, the standalone, are games. One's life doesn't hold nearly as much value as it does in real life, and as such, very little respect needs to be had towards another player's life. If we look at the period when there was no hero/bandit skins, it was pretty much chaos and Call of Duty with zombies. It still is, but less so. (Thanks to people like Frankie and others for showing how it's not actually that bad to be a hero/anti-bandit.)

It is true that there used to be no way of telling whether the guy you ran into was friendly at all or not, and the quickest and safest solution was to get rid of them. But even with the different skins, you get that issue with new spawns that haven't yet ran into enough people.

From a REALISM standpoint, my vote goes AGAINST any set outfits for certain types of players.

But from the COMMUNITY BEHAVIOR standpoint, my vote goes FOR some kind of indication of what the player has been doing in their current life. Most of the people currently playing DayZ just shoot on sight, no matter what you do or who you are, and it sucks. I know. I have high hopes while anxiously waiting to see how the Closed Alpha goes, but I'm pretty sure there's going to be the usual 'deathmatch' problem when it's open for everybody again.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[Hoj0 (DayZ) 31]

Have I missed something? Aren't the bandit/hero skins in the mod already?

Edit;

"Reason 2: How else will we know how to keep track of our humanity? How will we know EXACTLY whether we're good evil or somewherei n between with no humanity meter."

People have guns in real life. People kill each other in real life. People still don't suddenly warp into a certain style of clothing depending on their actions.

If you kill someone in self-defense in DayZ, 3 out of 5 times you will LOSE humanity, simply because the other guy didn't hit you before you took them down. Same goes for real life, you are not a bad person if you shoot someone who broke into your house at night, even if they were unarmed. It's perfectly legal at least in the US.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/451/395/2d2.jpg

[Trizzo 632]

Here's what to do.Take everything the OP said, make it the oppoiste of what he said then its fixed.

Reason 1: Does a person intending to do bad usually advertise it? Does a cautious non KOS player wear a care bear super friends insignia?

Reason 2: How do you keep track of your life story? Memory. Better yet scrap the humanity point system then you wont need to keep track. Add some skins with implied roles (for example: White Medial Outfit) for those that want a defined role but add far more neutral skins. Neutral skins should be the most important.

Reason 3:There is no price to being a psychopath. No magicial clothing change, no silly heartbeat sound. You identify people through behaviour. That is all the information you should need and the only information you should expect to get.

Reason 4: There are no sides, not really. If you want a side go play Team Death match.It’s not realistic to wear a uniform bandit skin when there are no standing armies or sides. Bandits would and do not advertise banditry, it works against their objectives. This is not hard to understand.

Reason 4 Continued: In a survival scenario I would not wear what looks good or flavourful. I would wear what helps me survive. Chiefly multiple layers of specific clothing (polyester base layer, middle layer and outer layer weather proof shell) designed to retain heat and protect from extream elements for Chernarus OR clothing for the area im living in.

“If you know what they look like you most likely know their intentions.” This is the worst assumption you could possibly make about a person EVER. Power derived from appearance and authority. Following this line of thinking leads to one conclusion: being slaughtered like a sheep.

Reason 6:

Refer to the previous point about blind trust and all other points.

Points 5 and 7 are subjective.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Trizzo

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

I have a lot of things to say but I'm just going to skip to the point so hopefully someone from the DayZ crew read this :) You're going to want to read all this. Aren't the bandit skins still in the game?

Reason 1: It's hard to tell who's more likely to shoot you , help you, or be cautious about. I've been shot at multiple times by people I thought may be friendly Yeah, what's wrong with that? The suspense of not knowing who to trust is a lot better than, "I shoot every bandit on sight yo", how would you know who to trust in real life?

Reason 2: How else will we know how to keep track of our humanity? How will we know EXACTLY whether we're good evil or somewherei n between with no humanity meter. Humanity shouldn't even be in the game, it goes against the concept of DayZ

Reason 3: I understand bandits have less camouflage but that matters very slightly since it's extremely hard to spot just about anyone hiding in grass anyways. But that's a price of being a psychopath. Oh shit, I didn't know being a psychopath causes you to be easier to spot in grass.

Reason 4: It takes away the pros and cons of taking a side. People shouldn't be influenced towards taking one side or another, play how you want.

Ex: Cons. Being a bandit causes you to be shot on sight by a lot of people but that's realistic because you're a known killer. Realistic? Really? You think that's a realistic system? How are you a "known killer"? Pros. You strike fear and suspense when a survivor sees you maybe in a distance or point blank with the suspense of knowing they might die and having to start over again. Especially on no respawn servers. Pro 2: If your murder/ raid is successful you get the dead guys stuff which is like a jackpot in this game.

Ex 2: 1 Pros Being a hero may not benefit you What? Yes it does, you run faster and get a bulletproof vest. but it will benefit others and helps keep a little decency and control of who you would be. 2 Not to mention people may want to help you in return of your services as in having your back or giving you a reward (happened to me multiple times because I am one of the few good guys left) 3 if you've ever played fallout 3 you'd know your good deeds have rewards and people with be grateful for the effort you put to help people (like I said happened to me numerous times) . Cons: People may take your kindness for a weakness and god knows bad guys don't like good guys.

Reason 4: Skins and their looks don't just define who you are. It matches your characters personality as well. DayZ is about the player and his experiences, not the character. That's why we don't have leveling and skill trees. Bandits dress like evil psychos and survivalists. Regular characters dress as people just trying to survive day by day. Heroes dress like they're here to help. Bulletproof vest + Blue plaid shirt = here to help? I don't follow. If you know what they look like you most likely know their intentions. Just like in real life! No, everyone should be able to dress however they want.

Reason 5: A lot of people have been complaining since they were removed. And I doubt many people were happy about this.

Reason 6: This whole game is highly based on trust and it makes it extremely harder on who you want to trust.Yeah, what's wrong with that? If you think the humanity system is even a little realistic, you're mistaken, friend. I mean think about it before they were removed would you rather trust the guy looking like a psychopath hiding his identity with a full face turban/ski mask. Or the guy with a backpack full of medical supplies dressed like a normal person in civilian cothing trying to survive with a sense of humanity.

Reason 7: The new skins look absolutely awful :P. No offense I mean I love this game more than ANY other zombie game or maybe even game I've played but... c'mon man lol.

Sorry, but all of those points seem to go against the spirit of DayZ to me.

[p4nnus 42]

Dont try to bambify the game! Agree with clumzy. Also learn to use the search button, this has been discussed. Though it would be nice to see the whole humanity system removed from the mod with the addition of some variety to the (starting ) clothes.

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

Humanity is the worst addition to dayz, should be totally removed

World is not black&white, its grey... So an artificial skin doesn't mean shit

[Jonsse 69]

He is scratching on the surface of truth though, the problem with the mod is that everyone is generic. There is hardly any distinguishable feature or behavior available to recognize different players from each other. The intentions of any one individual is only apparent after an action has been taken, and that's too late.

So the concern is valid, there needs to be some system for recognizing different players. That's something the standalone will hopefully fix. Having different clothing is a big step forwards.

Having a different skin that relates to your choices in the game is not a good function. Dayz is about anonymity, it's a major aspect of its appeal.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Jonsse

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Dont try to bambify the game! Agree with clumzy. Also learn to use the search button, this has been discussed. Though it would be nice to see the whole humanity system removed from the mod with the addition of some variety to the (starting ) clothes.

It all depends on what angle you look at the issues, really.

I explained what I mean in my previous post on this thread. (Just updated it, in fact.)

[CreepySalad 108]

So we can make the game TEAM deathmatch?

No.

You shouldn't know who to trust. The humanity system should be removed all together.

[JayTee13 1]

Okay yes. I understand how a lot of you would disagree okay. @Clumzy you really didn't have to be so rude about it. I'm trying to be polite here. And clearly you misunderstood the point of this. The DayZ bandit/ hero skins weren't technically removed. They're just the same thing with different colors. @CreepySalad I agree with you but that was not my intention. I guess the real reason I posted this is because I'm tired of having the same skin for every single character honestly. Maybe we should be able to choose our outfit. @Helicopter Hunter yes you are right. There should be some difference other than every player looking the same with different colors. Hopefully selective/customize able. @Trizzo be a little constructive man you don't have to be all like "Take out everything the OP said and make it opposite. I'll be honest with you I was tired and had about 10 shots in me and I got really p*ssed at some dude who shot me on DayZ. Let me rephrase this whole thing. I absolutely HATE. The skins. They're the same guy with different colors and slightly different faces. The skins should be customizable and a humanity meter only view able by yourself specifically. Are you all satisfied now?

[p4nnus 42]

It all depends on what angle you look at the issues, really.

I explained what I mean in my previous post on this thread. (Just updated it, in fact.)

Well in that case, youre looking at it from the wrong point of view. Its as clear as water: either you want to make the game easier and more predictable, with the expense of authenticity, or not. The communitys opinion doesnt matter in this case, because DayZ is meant to be unforgiving and cruel. Let it first succeed in what Dean wants it to be, then discuss bambifying again. The end game content will be dealt with, I wouldnt worry about that. When youre referring to pre-banditskin DayZ as a CoD with zombies, youre making a unholy statement. This game and also the mod, are so far away from CoD, that they are almost day and night. You should be dismembered for that filthy statement. Though I agree with the chaos part, but thats what probably would happen! Chaos or not, there should be NO WAY of knowing what a person does/has done to survive.

"DayZ was designed to be impossibly cruel, dark, and brutal. It was not designed as a game it was more of an experiment, I prefer the term "anti-game" - in other words the mechanics are not designed to be balanced, or offer a way out for different situations. These are things game designers normally take care with.

I discussed this with the our team members at great length of many arguments, the idea behind safe zones. The eventual consensus was that it went against the ethos of the project. This whole concept, and the reason it "works", is that there IS no safe zone (unless you make it). Your actions have real and brutal consequences. There are no game designed safety nets.

It is the kind of system/environment that will sometimes make you want to punch the computer screen. But with that kind of risk, comes great emotional reward when you carry something off. The sniper you describe - there are people like this in the world, and in the breakdown of order I can bet that there would be people who would sit on a roof and shoot people "just for the lulz".

The system makes no judgement on player actions, and this is one of the only real rules that was adopted for the development. While consequences may occur for a particular action (e.g. humanity loss), no judgement is implied or placed on that behavior. Beyond hacks, and misuse of exploits, regulating player behavior is not a scope of this project. If players, themselves, wish to group together and attempt to regulate the behavior. Well, that's entirely up to you.This kind of activity is not for everyone. It really is more of a social experiment than a game. There is no intention to change that, if you dislike the PVP, then I would recommend playing Dynamic Zombie Sandbox or Celery's excellent Chernaus Apocalypse - there is no point in these being recreated through this mod.

Why make something that has already been done?"

-Dean "rocket" Hall

edit: JayTee, would you please start searching stuff up before posting. The standalone will feature cloth pieces to choose from, but ofcourse you will need to find it to change it. Not satisfied with you at all.

Edited January 30, 2013 by p4nnus

[misterwit 118]

HORP DORP, I DUN KILLED TWO PEOPLE, GONNA PUT ON THIS HERE BRIGHT TOWEL AROUND MY FACE SO PEOPLE KNOW HURR HURR.

Bandit skins are stupid. No one in their right mind would spontaneously dress like a Muslim extremist because they shot someone.

[CreepySalad 108]

Well you can put on different clothes in the standalone.

Don't worry 'bout it.

[Jonsse 69]

HORP DORP, I DUN KILLED TWO PEOPLE, GONNA PUT ON THIS HERE BRIGHT TOWEL AROUND MY FACE SO PEOPLE KNOW HURR HURR.

Bandit skins are stupid. No one in their right mind would spontaneously dress like a Muslim extremist because they shot someone.

Well technically they would, since their face might be recognized as the assailant and make any communal living difficult. Any person with murderous intent would want to conceal their face. Even in a post apocalyptic world.

[misterwit 118]

Well technically they would, since their face might be recognized as the assailant and make any communal living difficult. Any person with murderous intent would want to conceal their face. Even in a post apocalyptic world.

No, they would not. There are no witnesses, no working security cameras, no cops, and no word-of-mouth.

Post-apocalypse, brah.

edit: and even if I would, it should be my CHOICE to put it on. It's not like I welded it to my face.

Edited January 30, 2013 by misterwit

[Jonsse 69]

No, they would not. There are no witnesses, no working security cameras, no cops, and no word-of-mouth.

Post-apocalypse, brah.

edit: and even if I would, it should be my CHOICE to put it on. It's not like I welded it to my face.

You're thinking it from the wrong direction. Because it's a game causality doesn't quite work the same way as in reality. And since in DayZ recognizing players is virtually impossible without nametags which is a horrible system in itself, it is feasible to have a bandit skin as the need for concealing your identity through disguise is moot.

That's the difference between thinking through reality versus gameplay.

In a post apocalyptic world there would be a chance of witnesses and certainly a chance of word to mouth. You would be known to be a killer eventually. Maybe not after your first kill, but certainly eventually.

So it's more about gameplay than just pure anonymity. And working around certain faults in the game itself to provide a more complete experience.

[misterwit 118]

You're thinking it from the wrong direction. Because it's a game causality doesn't quite work the same way as in reality. And since in DayZ recognizing players is virtually impossible without nametags which is a horrible system in itself, it is feasible to have a bandit skin as the need for concealing your identity through disguise is moot.

That's the difference between thinking through reality versus gameplay.

In a post apocalyptic world there would be a chance of witnesses and certainly a chance of word to mouth. You would be known to be a killer eventually. Maybe not after your first kill, but certainly eventually.

So it's more about gameplay than just pure anonymity. And working around certain faults in the game itself to provide a more complete experience.

Rocket already stated that DayZ is intended to be an "anti-game", where things that make the game easier SHOULD NOT exist.

And I really don't give the remotest fuck if someone saw me kill someone, I'm still not wrapping a fucking towel around my face, literally just painting a target on myself, to hide my identity.

[dallas 5195]

Rocket already stated that DayZ is intended to be an "anti-game", where things that make the game easier SHOULD NOT exist.

And I really don't give the remotest fuck if someone saw me kill someone, I'm still not wrapping a fucking towel around my face, literally just painting a target on myself, to hide my identity.

Without humanity DayZ is just a game.

And because humanity wraps a towel around your head, peaceful survivors will treat you exactly the way you treat them. Without humanity skins, all skins become the bandit skin and whatever little reason people had to not shoot each other instantly disappear.

I think the humanity system is great.

First of all humanity is the very essence of the post-apocalypse genre.

Secondly it teaches new players that DayZ is something different, that there's an alternative to killing people on sight, that you can actually play DayZ trying to survive the end of the world with your humanity intact. Humanity also works as a reputation system in a game where serial killers and mass murderers are completely anonymous, because they and their victims aren't bound to a specific geographical location, at any given time they can simply switch to a alternate universe(server) and no one will ever know of their evil deeds.

The shemagh is a minor inconvenience and it can easily be disguised with ghillie suits/camo clothing and I suspect there'll be even more disguises in the standalone. Even if you get it undeserved in self defense, simply leaving populated areas for an hour or two will regenerate enough humanity for you to lose it.

Without humanity or a reputation system murderers will operate with full immunity, KOS will escalate and most of all new players will never learn that there are different ways of surviving the apocalypse. DayZ needs both good guys and bad guys to continue to be a different experience.

Remember humanity was implemented for a reason and when it was removed, it was clear why in was initially implemented and humanity was reinstated. Without humanity people will forget that DayZ is more than a game and simply KOS everyone.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Dallas

[Jonsse 69]

Rocket already stated that DayZ is intended to be an "anti-game", where things that make the game easier SHOULD NOT exist.

And I really don't give the remotest fuck if someone saw me kill someone, I'm still not wrapping a fucking towel around my face, literally just painting a target on myself, to hide my identity.

Exactly, and you should be recognized for that, but the game doesn't have a function for that. If someone saw you kill someone else, the second you log out, or run away and disappear in to the wilderness, your identity is lost forever. That person will never be able to recognize you ever again because you're a generic player skin that all the 20 people on the server share. That doesn't provide a static gameplay element in to a sandbox.

Now I agree with you that the second generic skin, the bandit, is a bad thing and the function that gives it is not optimal. So that needs to be changed and improved, but you're grossly mistaken if you think your psychopathic ways should always be brushed off by the participants of the sandbox and your anonymity enforced in every instance. That's counterproductive to any iteration of any game, even an anti-game as Rocket initially called it.

[misterwit 118]

Without humanity DayZ is just a game.

And because humanity wraps a towel around your head, peaceful survivors will treat you exactly the way you treat them. Without humanity skins, all skins become the bandit skin and whatever little reason people had to not shoot each other instantly disappear.

I think the humanity system is great.

First of all humanity is the very essence of the post-apocalypse genre.

Secondly it teaches new players that DayZ is something different, that there's an alternative to killing people on sight, that you can actually play DayZ trying to survive the end of the world with your humanity intact. Humanity also works as a reputation system in a game where serial killers and mass murderers are completely anonymous, because they are their victims aren't bound to a specific geographical location, at any given time they can simply switch to a alternate universe(server) and no one will ever know of their evil deeds.

The shemagh is a minor inconvenience and it can easily be disguised with ghillie suits/camo clothing and I suspect there'll be even more disguises in the standalone. Even if you get it undeserved in self defense, simply leaving populated areas for an hour or two will regenerate enough humanity for you to lose it.

Without humanity or a reputation system murderers will operate with full immunity, KOS will escalate and most of all new players will never learn that there are different ways of surviving the apocalypse. DayZ needs both good guys and bad guys to continue to be a different experience.

Remember humanity was implemented for a reason and when it was removed, it was clear why in was initially implemented and humanity was reinstated. Without humanity people will forget that DayZ is more than a game and simply KOS everyone.

I don't oppose bandit skins because I want to mask my intentions, I never said that. I said I don't want a fucking towel around my head that may as well have christmas lights on it. If they want to give me a black raincoat, reserve sunglasses for bandits, or make me look like a street-thug in a hoodie, that's great, I'd love that. however the current towelhead thing is absurd.

[misterwit 118]

Exactly, and you should be recognized for that, but the game doesn't have a function for that. If someone saw you kill someone else, the second you log out, or run away and disappear in to the wilderness, your identity is lost forever. That person will never be able to recognize you ever again because you're a generic player skin that all the 20 people on the server share. That doesn't provide a static gameplay element in to a sandbox.

Now I agree with you that the second generic skin, the bandit, is a bad thing and the function that gives it is not optimal. So that needs to be changed and improved, but you're grossly mistaken if you think your psychopathic ways should always be brushed off by the participants of the sandbox and your anonymity enforced in every instance. That's counterproductive to any iteration of any game, even an anti-game as Rocket initially called it.

Even if someone saw me kill someone, if they were close enough to see my face, one of us would die. You'd have to be within 50m of someone to identify any difference in appearance between all the characters (who are all the same height and build). If you want proof that I killed someone when you never saw me before and you never got a good look at me, the proof will lie in whether or not I was shooting at you when you walked up to me, or if I have bullets missing from my magazine when you sneak up on me and whack me across the head.

[dallas 5195]

I don't oppose bandit skins because I want to mask my intentions, I never said that. I said I don't want a fucking towel around my head that may as well have christmas lights on it. If they want to give me a black raincoat, reserve sunglasses for bandits, or make me look like a street-thug in a hoodie, that's great, I'd love that. however the current towelhead thing is absurd.

You kind of lose me at towelhead, it has certain xenophobic connotations attached to it, maybe that's why you dislike it, I don't know. I don't know what you'd chose instead, a gimp mask, a old school bandit half-mask and a black-white striped shirt? Shemaghs are pretty badass, even real world highspeednodrag specialoperators has acknowledged it's sexiness.

You gotta get past that towelhead issue of your's.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Dallas

[misterwit 118]

You kind of lose me at towelhead, it has certain xenophobic connotations attached to it, maybe that's why you dislike it, I don't know. I don't know what you'd chose instead, a gimp mask, a old school bandit half-mask and a black-white striped shirt? Shemaghs are pretty badass, even real world highspeednodrag specialoperators has acknowledged it's sexiness.

You gotta get past that towelhead issue of your's.

But that's the thing, putting a shemagh on isn't supposed to be a "here be baddies" sign. Instead of creating something, they looked at the resources Arma II had and said "well we're at war with people who wear those, that should be good enough". And I said "towelhead" because the low-poly representation they give those things looks like a towel... you know what I'm not even starting down this subject with you. So far you've called me a psychopath and now you're digging through my words to imply even more negative connotations that anyone who would spend a minute to know me would know are completely false.

I do my best to use good grammar, spelling, and choice of words as a courtesy to people who take the time to have a chat while I'm sitting here bored at uni. It's the internet, and people get distracted or make mistakes. I'm sorry if I said something offensive but it's not like you've been very welcoming to me, either.

Don't bother talking to me again unless you have something to add other than an assault on my character again. I'm tired of bambi's thinking that they hold a monopoly on how the game should be played, and have the right to petition at every step to make the game harder for anyone who wants to enjoy it differently.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

The communitys opinion doesnt matter in this case

Nooonononono. I do NOT give a damn about what the community wants. I was merely implying the behavior the DayZ community has. (Meaning, they shoot on sight no matter what, most of the time.)

And I am, and am not against the skin system. It's a two-sided thing for me, since I can see it from both sides.

Personally, if I -was- given the power to decided on it, I'd probably keep the skin system out. Mainly because I feel it would interfere with the clothing system in the Standalone.

But, at the same time, I can understand why people want the skins, and I don't blame them for that.

And I did highlight the word "some," when I was talking about indications.

Some indirect indication that might hint what the player's alignment is would be nice, but nothing clearly obvious like forced clothing. (Even the heartbeat was a little too much, I feel.)

Edit; I also feel a little dumbfounded/offended due to the fact that you're trying to explain what DayZ is to me, when I've been explaining it to countless people in very lengthy posts, and even have the links to Rocket's own words on what the mod is supposed to be. :I

Edit2; I'll make an edit to this post as well, later on, as I'm currently playing something. I read the rest of your post just now, and again, I have some things to say.

Edit3; Here we go.

Well in that case, youre looking at it from the wrong point of view. Its as clear as water: either you want to make the game easier and more predictable, with the expense of authenticity, or not. The communitys opinion doesnt matter in this case, because DayZ is meant to be unforgiving and cruel. Let it first succeed in what Dean wants it to be, then discuss bambifying again. The end game content will be dealt with, I wouldnt worry about that. You are taking words straight out of my head. When youre referring to pre-banditskin DayZ as a CoD with zombies, youre making a unholy statement. This game and also the mod, are so far away from CoD, that they are almost day and night. You should be dismembered for that filthy statement. No need to take things to the letter. When I say it's "like CoD," I mean that people just grab the first gun they can and start shooting everybody they see. It's a deathmatch among most people, instead of zombie survival with PvP / player interaction, like it should be. Though I agree with the chaos part, but thats what probably would happen! Chaos or not, there should be NO WAY of knowing what a person does/has done to survive. This is where it gets complicated. I wholeheartedly agree with you. There is no way I should know what a person has done in the past or while I wasn't watching. But because of the fact that some people sit on hills with sniper rifles, only coming down for a few supplies or even run around a city with an assault rifle, it pretty much ruins the immersion. The bandit skin doesn't prevent them from doing that, but it gives a hint on how you should act towards them. Like I said earlier, personally I would rather not have any 'alignment-specific' clothing at all. If someone who considers themselves a bandit wants to wear a striped shirt and a pink scarf while carrying a backpack with a huge red + on it(symbolizing medical supplies), they should be NOTHING stopping them from doing that. Same with heroes dressing up in all-black with a commando mask over their face while covered in body armor and carrying an LMG, they should be allowed to do that at will. Just like in real life, assuming you were able to get your hands on such things.

But I am not selfish on this matter. Something in my head keeps telling me that having some kind of very subtle clue/hint that MIGHT tell you what the other person has been doing should be there, because of the behavior we currently have in the mod. It wouldn't even have to be something that ONLY bandits do, but for example, do more often.

"DayZ was designed to be impossibly cruel, dark, and brutal. It was not designed as a game it was more of an experiment, I prefer the term "anti-game" - in other words the mechanics are not designed to be balanced, or offer a way out for different situations. These are things game designers normally take care with.

^ This is exactly what I want from DayZ, and is exactly why I love the game so dearly. I have a link to this post in my signature for bean's sake.

I discussed this with the our team members at great length of many arguments, the idea behind safe zones. The eventual consensus was that it went against the ethos of the project. This whole concept, and the reason it "works", is that there IS no safe zone (unless you make it). Your actions have real and brutal consequences. There are no game designed safety nets.

It is the kind of system/environment that will sometimes make you want to punch the computer screen. But with that kind of risk, comes great emotional reward when you carry something off. The sniper you describe - there are people like this in the world, and in the breakdown of order I can bet that there would be people who would sit on a roof and shoot people "just for the lulz".

The system makes no judgement on player actions, and this is one of the only real rules that was adopted for the development. While consequences may occur for a particular action (e.g. humanity loss), no judgement is implied or placed on that behavior. Beyond hacks, and misuse of exploits, regulating player behavior is not a scope of this project. If players, themselves, wish to group together and attempt to regulate the behavior. Well, that's entirely up to you.This kind of activity is not for everyone. It really is more of a social experiment than a game. There is no intention to change that, if you dislike the PVP, then I would recommend playing Dynamic Zombie Sandbox or Celery's excellent Chernaus Apocalypse - there is no point in these being recreated through this mod.

Why make something that has already been done?"

-Dean "rocket" Hall

I have quoted Rocket a couple times on that, showing the exact same paragraphs to people who wanted to make the game easier. I don't want the game easier. I am simply typing out my thoughts on both sides. You don't have to agree with only one of the two options, but you can't have both, and the decision has to be made at some point. And I've told you already that my final decision would be NOT giving any hints on what other players have done in their lifetimes.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man