On game design, "progression through equipment", and a system of micro-skills

[nihilisst 43]

Like I write in my Post above, if Players are limited in the amount of Knowledge/Skill their Character can have, the need for teamwork becomes much greater.

If you can only "max out" one particular skill(-set), you will have to rely on others to survive. If you are really good at repairing stuff, you can not be equally skilled in first aid and medicine. Therefore, you have to rely on other players to provide advanced medical care for you. Same goes the other way around.

Or a Hunter is very good at tracking animals, getting the best quality meat, but if his motorbike fails, he's fucked, because he can't repair it.

This comes of course close to a "class" system, but if it's based on your own decisions in-game, instead of choosing at the start "Hunter", "Medic", "Mechanic", It works great for DayZ, because your playstyle defines your character.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

so i had this new maybe evolutionary idea:

provided we have

• a bundle of subtle micro-skills
  
• a weight and stamina system
  
• the new overhauled health system which depends on several factors (maybe even something like , focus, concentration or fatigue to reflect the state of mind)
  

A completely new and different approach would be to condition the progress of these skills on your health status, your level of focus and your stamina.

1. Low stamina/wounds/infections/fever which means...
   
2. ...the level of exhaustion increases slowly which means...
   
3. ...the focus decreases even slower
   

The idea could be to build dependencies between the skills of your choice and the points above. Some skills clearly depend more on health as on focus solely.

Mental work will always be affected more directly by focus, physical labor more by health or fatigue. (in the end they are all bound together over multipliers)

What's the use?

To effectively improve one's skills one has to prepare himself to be at least healthy, not exhausted too much and/or has a high level of focus depending on the skills he wants to improve.

Edited June 20, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

Like I write in my Post above, if Players are limited in the amount of Knowledge/Skill their Character can have, the need for teamwork becomes much greater.

ermmm, no, sorry, this will definitely not stop the KOS mentality,

don't expect anyone to see an armed survivor and say to himself, "hmm, he might have a skill that I may need some time in the future, so I will not preemptively kill him although he might kill me"

Dutch nailed it:

Banditry is seemingly the only option for 90% of the players, not because they all want to the game to be a FPS, but because they are afraid of dying as it is.

IMO why people would band up is not some skill that might come handy in the long run, but because of immediate necessity - like there are 50 zeds around, 4 hands are better than 2, and I only have 10 rounds left.

So perks, levels, whatever, would be in the game only because ppl want them, and therefore IMO should not limit the game for a loner

[dutch_miller 159]

ermmm, no, sorry, this will definitely not stop the KOS mentality,

IMO why people would band up is not some skill that might come handy in the long run, but because of immediate necessity - like there are 50 zeds around, 4 hands are better than 2, and I only have 10 rounds left.

So perks, levels, whatever, would be in the game only because ppl want them, and therefore IMO should not limit the game for a loner

Exactly. And In the current situation of the game, surviving as an individual is just as easy, and often more beneficial, than surviving with another player; let alone another player you just met. Unless you set out to do so, there is no reason to team up with a stranger.

Now I'm not saying that people who like to play alone should be punished, I'm suggesting that there should be a reason to survive with a stranger, rather than just kill them.

[DropBearChick 1216]

BOOKS

with skills such as removing parts from a car or adding parts you might know a few things but i'd say the average survivor wouldn't so therefore you might have to read a mechanic book or some sort of instructions or possibly have some other player teach you if they have read a book or manual.

FORAGING

possibly these skills could be extended to foraging so say you found a mushroom or some berries you could pick them and when your a noob you wouldn't know if it was safe to eat it or not but when you have a skill of say 65-100 it would say "you remember seeing somewhere that these berries are poisinous" or "these berries are __ colour so there poisinous". skills for foraging could also be expanded by reading a book.

COOKING

then theres cooking, you could use the food you foraged to cook a nice hearty homemade meal for you and your bandit buddies, this would sortof be like crafting demonstrated at E3 where you could drag your ingredients over the box that indicated the pot or fire and cook something sort of like a don't starve esc style of cooking and you can also cook better meals if you have read cook books or found recipes on pieces of paper. the better the meal the more hunger points it restores.

kin regards

-spartan54820

[doodleisbrutal 33]

FAAAAAAAAAAKE! hair doesn't grow that long in one month.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Although some conditions may have changed since we had this lively discussion about "micro-skills" or the like and some things from the initial post may now be not "valid" any more due to recent changes and infos about the SA:

so due to recent talks about value of life etc. feel free to read through this thread (i also highly recommend its predecessor which is mentioned in the intial post). if you don't agree with some statements per se, maybe you still could find something that give you ideas to change this ultimate problem of player identification with his/her character.

 

 

also have a look at this (happened some time later):
http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/125087-progression-system-in-dayz-standalone/)

 

Would be nice if we could refine ideas to make something subtle that could add more depth to a character. there must be more than gear alone

Edited September 8, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[RedTailedLizerd 12]

It is possible that Rocket meant stuff like implementing more realistic ways of doing things and YOU being able to use your real life knowledge to do things in different ways.

I personally hate the idea of skills in DayZ because it add too much RPG to what's meant to beva survival, it also causes a whole new kind of player, the leveller. These people would just run around killing and every single animal or killing every zombie to get better at it.

[JIJOK 49]

there's toilette paper and razor, rain , lakes and possibility to just live in peace , 1 month on dayz doesnt mind I will look like a tramp.

BTW gain skill or xp is silly and easily stat padd 

[joe_mcentire 2074]

It is possible that Rocket meant stuff like implementing more realistic ways of doing things and YOU being able to use your real life knowledge to do things in different ways.

I personally hate the idea of skills in DayZ because it add too much RPG to what's meant to beva survival, it also causes a whole new kind of player, the leveller. These people would just run around killing and every single animal or killing every zombie to get better at it.

if you would have read a liitle bit into this thread you would know that we have already considered such downsides. there is always a solution to a problem.

no direct-combat related puffs and perks, and no visible xp and achievements as some minor examples.

Edited September 15, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[RedTailedLizerd 12]

if you would have read a liitle bit into this thread you would know that we have already considered such downsides. there is always a solution to a problem.

no direct-combat related puffs and perks, and no visible xp and achievements as some minor examples.

I do not care to read this whole post, for it does not interest me. It is too long and does not need that kind of length. I didn't even read all of the post you made which I am responding to. I doubt even 15% of these people actually read the entire priginal post.

[bibbish 49]

 

Very very interesting. I liked the bit in particular about lighting a fire. I'm sure as hell I would really struggle at first but would get better at it. I don't think that you should easily be able to transmit infections through a perfectly good blood bag, but I do think the amount of blood restored should be less for noobs.

 

Getting better at gutting animals is an excellent idea too. I think also the tools used to gut animals (pocket knife/blunt kitchen knife/sharp kitchen knife/hunting knife/machete) should yield varying amounts of meat because some of these items would be difficult to use.

 

DayZ isn't meant to be fair but it would feel less futile for the new player if they knew that they started with low skill for gutting animals, but if they acquired the best item for the job (hunting knife) they'd be able to reduce their disadvantage a bit. Of course there is always the chance that a noob will acquire a machete, kill a boar and because they have the worst tool for the job (and lowest skill), hack it to pieces and only end up with two edible pieces of meat.

 

If that happened to me I'd feel more state of 'panic' because survival is difficult. I'd also feel like it was worth staying alive for longer to get better at gutting animals and also to maybe find a better knife. It's a bit like when the creators of Dark Souls said that some players would be inspired to get better at the game to overcome hardships. Of course this system is based more on time played rather than ability, but I think it is similar. 

[bibbish 49]

You are right, in principle it is an incentive to hide your character, strictly speaking.

But within the context of:

- Very slow gain of exp & everything lost on death

- Hiding is boring

- Progress in skills not game deciding, more effecting survival elements

only few people would feel incentivized to hide their characters.

Furthermore, as the micro skills do not affect combat in any way,

I'd have no problem encountering someone who has hidden his character for 20 hours...

he has no advantage over me.

Also, the developers should not reveal what makes your character's skill increase. It could be that hiding your character is not very rewarding because your character's skill goes up based on crawling, crouch running or running. Just having your character sat somewhere wouldn't achieve much. There could also be a system where randomly your character will stop progressing until certain criteria are met. For example randomly on Day 2 your character wouldn't progress any more until they had crawled a certain distance or perhaps gutted an animal or something equally mundane. Since your progression cannot be found accurately in the UI and since you are not told what to do to keep progressing it would be pointless to try to grind anything or hide your character. (Something similar could happen on Day 3 or Day 5).

 

In your journal it could say. 'I've found that I am quite good at gutting animals, vehicle repairs seem to take me a while, lighting a fire takes me even longer.' This would be the only indication of how you are doing, with no information to let you know when you would become 'very good' or 'excellent' at gutting animals. Based on this information, playing in groups, you get the guy who is 'quite good' to gut the animal you have just killed because he has a chance to yield slightly more meat than the guy who is 'terrible' at it. Perhaps the guy who is terrible at gutting has 'gutting animals makes me feel sick'. Later he might have 'I'm a bit more used to being around dead animals now, I didn't throw up the last time'. 

 

If the system in mysterious I think it would be cool. I don't know how players would react to not being able to control the way the progress. I think it is great that the journal already says that the survivor woke up and didn't know how they got there, they know it is good to find a gun and make note of who they take out. I think it is 'authentic' that they also wouldn't know what they are 'naturally' ('randomly' in this case), good at. A bit like in the Bourne Identity when Jason discovers that when attacked he can react well.

 

I'd love to hear what people think about my take on it.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

this is going to be so much fun :D

 

John Freeman who was Gordon Freeman's brother was one day an office.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Remember this is an ancient thread (almost a necro forum wise) and a lot has changed.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[bibbish 49]

there are alot more sicknesses than just cholera, so there will still be a chanche to get the other sicknesses trough looting.

 

Absolutely hate this idea. Don't think it is very realistic at all. If I shot someone and went through their bag I would have to be a complete idiot to get infected from something. I would have to find their pouch of raw meat and smear it all over my face or get my hands right in the hole in their guts which my bullet had made. The reward for taking someone out is my safety and their loot. The fact that my bullets may have damaged some of the loot or clothing is deterrent and penalty enough.

 

Cholera is caused by a specific bacteria, and usually enters the body when infected food or water is consumed. I would not appreciate it all all if my character got very ill because I shot someone and took their Mak clips and road flares.

[bibbish 49]

"Learning by doing" and "Improvement over time" are in the end very similar and would probably not feel any different.

But let's say you don't ever repair a car. would that skill, the probability to fail/succeed, increase too?

You survive for 50 days, but always stay in the same area, hunting, fishing, living off the land, rarely go into a small town and check some cupboards. You never see a car, until day 51, when another player crashes his car into the house you're looting. How skilled would you be at trying to repair the engine, fix the fueltank or change the wheels? definitely not better than 50 days before, because you never had the chance to try and understand how it works.

It could even go a step further. That you have to exercise regularly to keep your level. (like in real life). But that would go too far.

and, about wep0ns explanation for "Gaining of passive skills with a heavy trade off. happens randomly, difficult to exploit:"

The "skills" he mentions (immunities, resistance to cold...), well I think they are a completely different factor than the "skills" I (and you) have in mind.

If you stay out in the cold, you maybe get sick. That's normal. And if you get over the sickness, you'll maybe be more resistant than before or even immune. that's normal, too.

But that has nothing to do with skill or character progression.

This feature can exist side by side, or without a skill system, but not "instead" of one.

PS: To all people repeating over and over again, that ArmA/DayZ Mod has already a learning progress, for orientation, weapon handling etc.

Yes, I agree. There are some skills, that are Player Skills. How good you are at estimating distance of a target, that you know how to navigate using the sky, that you know when to crouch or go prone to avoid detection, etc.

These are Player skills that are translated into the game directly by input. And they are enough for ArmA, which is a Military Simulation.

But DayZ is a Apocalypse Survival Simulation. There is more to do than move and shoot. There are Skills needed that CAN NOT be translated directly into the game.

And the fact that these are the same for every player make the "survival" not really "survival of the fittest", as every player is "fit" at the same level.

And that is boring. DayZ in it's current state is still too much "Military Simulator" than "Survival Simulator".

The only alternative to "artificial" skills, would be minigames. But really, everybody hates minigames. Either they're too easy and boring, or they're unrealistic or they're too complicated due to the limitiation of input possibilities with mouse and keyboard (have you played "Surgeon Simulator 2013" ?)

 

 

Excellent observations that I agree with totally. You wouldn't suddenly know how to repair a car better if you had lived 50 days longer. Being immune to a disease because you had gotten over it a few times or immunized yourself is more of a passive skill or 'trait' that could totally work in conjunction with these micro skills. And I agree. Learning how to play Arma2 properly (there is a lot more to it that COD) is important, but DayZ is a survival game and needs these features, however they are implemented to go way beyond the mod that it currently is. 

[GodOfGrain 191]

* November 2013: Updated and shortened, as still relevant *

(It is still a long post though :D)

[GodOfGrain 191]

ermmm, no, sorry, this will definitely not stop the KOS mentality,

don't expect anyone to see an armed survivor and say to himself, "hmm, he might have a skill that I may need some time in the future, so I will not preemptively kill him although he might kill me"

 

Oh it would certainly. You are right, I also would not think a second if I might need him later, because right now I need the shiny gun on his shoulder.

But: If you engange, you might die. PvP leads to death, no matter how good you are.

Edited November 17, 2013 by GodOfGrain