Skill System in DayZ?

[GodOfGrain 191]

Skill System in DayZ?

After a long discussion in this thread I would made significant changes to the suggestion below.

It wouldn't make sense to make these changes in this post, as all answers form other people would make no sense.

I have opened another thread to combine this system with all the input from our discussion.

On game design, "progression through equipment", and a system of micro-skills

QQQ

I am convinced that the mechanic down below is worth your consideration.

I play DayZ since May '12. Hardcore DayZ player, have read all of Rocket's statements

and believe to have a good feeling where designers and the majority of the community wants the game to go.

That's make me also understand why people hesitate when they hear "skill system".

"Skill system" means "game", means D3, means "ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED".

DayZ should not feel like a game, that's for sure.

What this system is not:

- No levels

- no spendable exp points

- no direct / visible interference with the game experience

- no unlocking of skills etc.

- no interference with combat, it remains a level playing field

Summary:

- A set of about 20 general (e.g. stamina) and special traits (laying blood transfusion)

- These values are displayed modestly in one single sheet

- This system is not interactive, just numbers working in a background.

- Values go from 0 to 100. Players start at 50 for all.

- You can perform all actions as a fresh start, but some things like repairs or laying a blood transfusion have quite a high chance to fail.

- Combat is not subject to the system

- You loose all progress upon death

- Differences between a freshspawn and a player on "max" is not huge and does never effect combat.

Why?

The Problem: Progression through equipment

There is a set of core issues which have become aparent during this alpha test:

- Low value of a player's (own) life

- Abundance of PvP

- Lack of longterm-motivation

I am not talking in terms of long term motivation here.

That's not the prime issue. It is an issue today, but it can be dealt with in alternative ways than a skill system.

The problem is: Low value of a player's (own) life.

The current game design does not assign any significant value to a players life (at least in DayZ terms),

as especially for groups equipment is easily recoverable.

This is one important factor for the abundance of PvP. It's the difference between reallife and a game;

you can just press respawn. And with DayZ's approach of char. progression = items, you are back in

action within minutes when playing in a team.

If you PvP - you will die, sooner or later.

If your character gains something which is bound to this character,

the character will be more worthfull to you (and more unique),

and the player will think twice: Do I start this fight? 20% I bite the dust...

Have a look at this post of mine later in the discussion on the importance

of a skill system in the context of game design in an open-world/ sandbox environment:

http://dayzmod.com/f...40#entry1134783

The Skill System

Perhaps you have played the round-based strategy game Jagged Alliance 2?

That's roughly what I have in mind. It is really complex and I haven't understood its mechanics after

hundrets of hours playing. For example suddenly your character gained a point dexterity after opening a door. What?

That means that the JA2 system was collecting data for every and such action...

and always a very small amount.

In DayZ this would mean practically...

you keep running... every minute you get a little bit of exp in stamina and in strength...

you vault over a fence ... you get little bit of strength and dexterity...

you light a fire ... you get points in "lighting a fire" and dexterity

you apply a bandage... you get a bit better in bandaging, dexterity and other medical traits

Skills are interdepended in two ways:

a ) How you get exp for them:

(e.g.: scrap metall attached -> 2 exp technical skills, 1.2 exp dexterity, 1 exp strength, 0.02 stamina, 0.04 chopping wood, 0,03 blood transfusion, etc.)

So you get exp for "laying blood transfusion" while reparing a car.

b ) when performing an action, several factors are relevant for its success / speed:

e.g.: performing "chopping wood" is influenced by: strength, stamina, skill "chopping wood"

Skills divided in two categories: Fitness & Memory

Fitness:

Stamina: (Running speed, effects of nedured running, max. weight)

Strength: (max. weight, melee attacks)

Dexterity: (overall skill every other task, especially important for performing complex tasks like repairs, operations etc.)

etc.

Memory:

Medical:

- e.g. Beginner: 60% success probability when applying a bandage; 90% for full-skilled

- e.g. Blood transfusion: Beginner: 15% chance your patient gets an infection

- (those actions would also be influenced by the variable dexterity)

Mechanical:

- e.g. Attaching scrap metall to car:

Untrained: 30% that you're unsuccessfull & material is lost - with a small probability that you further damage the car.

Chopping wood:

- Takes 3 complete minutes for a beginner to get a pile of wood, 1.5 minutes for a very experienced player

Others: Cleaning guns, gut animals, light a fire, light a fire at rain...

Combination with other game mechanics possible!

Points in "Memory skills" are permenant, those in "fitness" are not.

Imagine the possibilites:

A) You have a flue, or cholera or what not.

--> Stamina, Strength, Dexterity are reduced by a certain rate.

You will run slower, can carry less. Since Dexterity influences other skills, all actions will be less efficient,

simulating the effects of the illness.

--> The reduction in this case may be temporary, and get back up to previous level once healthy again.

B ) Gunshot to the leg.

--> Permenant reduction in stamina

It would take 10, 20 hours gaining new exp until you are back to previous level

C) Gunshot to the arm

--> permenant reduction in dexterity

D) Gunshot to the head

--> Profit :D

E) You are very hungry / thirsty

--> All fitness rates reduced accordingly until you found something to eat

As I said before, the positive effects of going from 50 to 100 are rather limited.

But we could introduce drastic negative effects for a value of e.g. 25 in stamina:

--> slowing running speed by 40% compared to normal, simulating a recent shot in the leg.

All design questions now, but the system would be in place.

Conclusion

You loose all your skills once you die. That's a great fit with DayZ, as it is cruel and unforgiving ;)

This skill system does not provide an "end game" of any sort, although it would add an important layer of long term motivation.

I would feel proud about my character of 30 days, because now he is indeed something different to a fresh spawn.

Perhaps your old character will be even weaker then a fresh spawn. Experienced in things like lighting a fire in heavy rain, but slow as an old men, from all those gunshot wounds over time. I would still try to keep him alive, that's for sure :)

If you dont want your character to die, you will think twice and again if you start shooting on everything that moves.

No play-style is punished. You just get a realistic reward for staying alive.

PvP groups will have three options with this...

- run around with low exp characters, fresh from the coast.

- PvP less

- or be that smart in their role that they still surive their hostile trade

What I also find very promising is the opportunity to combine this idea with other game mechanics,

such as negative effects through wounds or infections.

If you say "numbers don't fit to DayZ", there is always the option of hiding the

experience information altogether from the player.

You'd only get visual information from your interactions ingame,

e.g. you notice that some actions are more quicker / efficient / higher success probability.

What are your thoughts?

Edited January 26, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[enforcer1975 1111]

No skills, no perks, no thank you...

[w.westhoeve@hotmail.com 5]

This will give players who play this game for PvP disadvantages, they don't want to level perks to get even.

[Snilex 40]

Although I support it, I wouldn't want it in the game. It was start a wave of whine from people. The system that makes everyone equal in a game is perfect, it gives no one a reason to whine. The world works like that, if someone is better than someone else they want what makes that person better nerfed to the ground.

Right now, nobody got anything that makes that person better than anyone else. Don't speak of "better weapons" they aren't really hard to find, people who whine about that are lazy and shouldn't play in the first place. Time+effort=pofit.

[mdmonnik@deakin.edu.au 139]

I thought this bit was AMAZING personally: Blood transfusion: Beginner: 15% chance your patient gets an infection

[dallas 5195]

I've come to be against all kinds of traditional RPG based skills.

I hope DayZ's skills will continue to be knowledge based, so the more you know, the more effectively you can play. The more accurate you can shoot and the quicker you can navigate the land. DayZ's leveling should be limited to your gear and you knowledge.

Sprinting is quick over short distances, but jogging is faster over long distances. You're also faster if you know where you're going, if you don't get lost and know how to read a map.

Because ArmA/DayZ require it's player to acquire or enhance their skills and knowledge of the game, it's geopraphy and it's mechanics, you don't actually need artificial skills or bonuses.

This is also why ArmA/DayZ doesn't need achievements either, because when you improve yourself or achieve something in the game, you feel an actual sense of achievement. You don't need to unlock a thumbnail icon, because you killed 200 zombies. It's much more rewarding, looking at the sun, knowing how to find north. Or correctly evaluating the range and speed of your target and hitting a moving object from a distance.

[Snilex 40]

I hope the Devs read what Dallas wrote, because my god I don't want another game I like to be ruined by Devs who think "casual" noobs should be just as good as someone who have played for much longer by the time that casual noob have reached Elektro for the first time.

[jaymacca 52]

Personally I think the skill set that defines your character is the one you as the player possess and improve the more you play, this would frustrate to no end and for me the realism comes from how you employ tactics and how you approach each challenge.

What I actually think makes this game both unique and rewarding is the exclusion of today's standard must have achievements and arbitrary talent systems thrown into the mix.

Edited January 16, 2013 by jaymacca

[GodOfGrain 191]

I've come to be against all kinds of traditional RPG based skills.

I hope DayZ's skills will continue to be knowledge based, so the more you know, the more effectively you can play. The more accurate you can shoot and the quicker you can navigate the land. DayZ's leveling should be limited to your gear and you knowledge.

Sprinting is quick over short distances, but jogging is faster over long distances. You're also faster if you know where you're going, if you don't get lost and know how to read a map.

Because ArmA/DayZ require it's player to acquire or enhance their skills and knowledge of the game, it's geopraphy and it's mechanics, you don't actually need artificial skills or bonuses.

This is also why ArmA/DayZ doesn't need achievements either, because when you improve yourself or achieve something in the game, you feel an actual sense of achievement. You don't need to unlock a thumbnail icon, because you killed 200 zombies. It's much more rewarding, looking at the sun, knowing how to find north. Or correctly evaluating the range and speed of your target and hitting a moving object from a distance.

"Knowledge bases process" sounds good, and you gave some good examples.

But I think this approach is rather limited. Devs always talk about orientation after the stars...

hell yea... good. But that's it more or less ^^

You are not a better shot / hunter / driver / technician depending on your real life skills.

I believe this approach is leading nowhere.

I understand opposition against a skill system in DayZ.

I myself think that it does not fit 100%. But ! Maybe it still is the best way?

- It approaches major problems of Dayz (long term motivation / abundance of PvP / little consequence of death).

- It is a realistic concept after all to get better in things ;) Only the grapfical display is the unrealistic part.

I'd prefer a very simple table with character values form 0-100 for differnt skills - just to check your progress, you don't even

have to look at it once.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Personally I think the skill set that defines your character is the one you as the player possess and improve the more you play, this would frustrate to no end and for me the realism comes from how you employ tactics and how you approach each challenge.

What I actually think makes this game both unique and rewarding is the exclusion of today's standard must have achievements and arbitrary talent systems thrown into the mix.

No achievements, no "ABILITY UNLOCKED!", no level update...

just numbers in the background doing their work...

[GodOfGrain 191]

Although I support it, I wouldn't want it in the game. It was start a wave of whine from people. The system that makes everyone equal in a game is perfect, it gives no one a reason to whine. The world works like that, if someone is better than someone else they want what makes that person better nerfed to the ground.

Good point. Although DayZ Devs and the community do not care about whiners,

but having this "level playing field" is actually something good.

But perhaps it is all a question to which degree the system influences the player.

I don't imagine a skill system where a unexperienced player has no chance against a guy who is alive for 300 hours.

Perhaps he will be 10% slower, can carry 20% less and will have his 30% chance to mess up the chopper repair.

But that's it, it will still just take 1 makarov hit to the head... :D

Edited January 16, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[boxman80 964]

Day Z is about experiences and stories, not awards, levels and achievements mate. That shit just gives players an excuse to cheat.

[victusmortuus 1074]

Maybe on the console version.... lol

[dallas 5195]

But which other games allows you to navigate by using the position of the sun or by the stars at night. This aspect can be completely ignored by finding a compass, but you still need to learn how to read a map, it's symbols and interpret features in the terrain and translate them on the map. Without a compass these basic skills, suddenly become very essential to whether you want to wander around in circles or easily and quickly meet up with your friends.

How about shooting? When you increase you skill in shooting, do you get an accuracy bonus or damage bonus? In ArmA you're rewarded if you have basic firearms training, know the basics about rifles. Everyone talks about bullet drop, but one of the first things you learn about rifles is that the barrel is aiming slightly upwards and that the bullet travels in a long tiny arch to the target. So an experienced shooter will not only know when to aim high, but also when when to aim below the target.

This applies to almost every aspect of the game. From landnav, ballistics, basic survival, area knowledge, tactical movement, people skills and psychology. There's a reason why some people always get killed on sight and why others don't. Knowing to keep cover close at hand helps alot, knowing how to show other players that you're not a threat, without exposing yourself to a clear shot. Knowing how to read another player, to evaluate risk, who to trust and who to avoid.

The mechanics of DayZ may be very basic, but the complexity of ArmA allows each player to thrive or fail, depending on his willingness to learn and ability to analyse situations and mistakes.

[GodOfGrain 191]

But which other games allows you to navigate by using the position of the sun or by the stars at night. This aspect can be completely ignored by finding a compass, but you still need to learn how to read a map, it's symbols and interpret features in the terrain and translate them on the map. Without a compass these basic skills, suddenly become very essential to whether you want to wander around in circles or easily and quickly meet up with your friends.

How about shooting? When you increase you skill in shooting, do you get an accuracy bonus or damage bonus? In ArmA you're rewarded if you have basic firearms training, know the basics about rifles. Everyone talks about bullet drop, but one of the first things you learn about rifles is that the barrel is aiming slightly upwards and that the bullet travels in a long tiny arch to the target. So an experienced shooter will not only know when to aim high, but also when when to aim below the target.

This applies to almost every aspect of the game. From landnav, ballistics, basic survival, area knowledge, tactical movement, people skills and psychology. There's a reason why some people always get killed on sight and why others don't. Knowing to keep cover close at hand helps alot, knowing how to show other players that you're not a threat, without exposing yourself to a clear shot. Knowing how to read another player, to evaluate risk, who to trust and who to avoid.

The mechanics of DayZ may be very basic, but the complexity of ArmA allows each player to thrive or fail, depending on his willingness to learn and ability to analyse situations and mistakes.

This complexity is why we love DayZ I suppose. Well written by the way ;)

But the skill system would adress major issues: long term motivation / abundance of PvP / little consequence of death.

And all this beauty of DayZ you described would still remain untouched and of prime importance. No +20% carrying would

replace tactical awareness. I'd also not touch shooting skills with the skill system...

Edited January 16, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[mzltv 2281]

Just because you didn't get it for WarZ, don't think that DayZ will try cover that niché.

Totally against this idea. It's not Skyrim. Everyone's meant to be on the same in-game standing. The only skill to the game is the decisions you make, not your characters stats.

[psstloaf 17]

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/116509-make-players-unique/#entry1101903

I second this idea, Now take my Beans!

[dallas 5195]

I know any game developer wants people to continue to play their games, especially if he likes food on the table and paying rent.

A great book "The Road" touches on motivation, why some people goes on and others don't.

How do you motivate yourself to continue surviving in a post apocalyptic world? Why would you accept going from keeping up with the Joneses to eating sardines out of a garbage can, hiding wet and cold in the deepest forest to avoid zombies and human raiders. Why endure this never ending hardship?

I think it's up to the player to find his own motivation, whether it's flying above the beaches at night in a helicopter, lighting up n00bs with NVGs and heavy machine guns or simply surviving day after day with your humanity intact, refusing to compromise decency if you can survive without taking from others.

I've pretty much done everything in DayZ, however I've only ever murdered one person, who hadn't done anything to deserve it. I killed a guy in justified self defense on the top level of the office building in Elektro, my blood was boiling and then I saw this guy crawling on the street behind the hospital two blocks away, probably with his leg broken looking for morphine. I aimed at him for less than a second or two and to my surprise shot him twice and he stopped crawling, dead. I can't explain why I did it, but one of my motivations for continuing playing DayZ, is I decided I wanted to prove that I could stay alive without unnecessarily having to murder or prey on other survivors.

Others are motivated by testing their skills against other in the most competitive areas of the map, others would find my playstyle boring, but entering Cherno, Elektro, Stary or NWA knowing, you will never fire the first shot can be an addicting high.

Both with motivation, skills and achievement I have no idea what Rocket or Bohemia Interactive did, if it was intentional or accidental, but all these mechanics functions on a intuitive and internal level, which makes DayZ a highly advanced psychological experience. Other games have to make due with artificial motivation, achievements and progression, DayZ/ArmA is more than that.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Dallas

[hoik 415]

Here is what a "skill" system, like this, does that real world knowledge can not achive - it artifically lets you "forget" things as if you had actually died rather than respawned/reincarnated.

Personally I feel there needs to be something to give a more severe feeling of loss when you die, losing loot quickly looses its impact and becomes too impersonal.

[Mr Nasty 1023]

I just don't see how a skill system can fit within this world. Skill systems are geared more towards an RPG while this game does have RPG elements I dont really consider it to be one. This is survival of the fittest. Use whats around you to the best of your abilities rely on your knowledge of the land not chop down 50 trees and get 3 points in your tree chopping skills.

I do like the idea of things not always being 100% though. Repairs failing or only improving the condition of a vehicle a small percentage instead of bringing the vehicle condition back to 100%.

[Dayz Steve 26]

I think this type of skill system is something Dayz Lacks! It sorely needs it. It would make the game more changeling, also something to play for. Have high level skills unlocking the ability to do exceptional skills, like building a glider, jet pack (Joking here) or building underground bases.

For the people who say Dayz is just PVP is total crap. Your fighting against the elements, your characters attributes and needs. Thats all PVE, Zombies are PVE elements you guys need to open your eyes how PVE elements will improve PVP gameplay.

[GodOfGrain 191]

I just don't see how a skill system can fit within this world. Skill systems are geared more towards an RPG while this game does have RPG elements I dont really consider it to be one. This is survival of the fittest. Use whats around you to the best of your abilities rely on your knowledge of the land not chop down 50 trees and get 3 points in your tree chopping skills.

[...]

Perhaps you have played the round-based strategy Jagged Alliance 2?

That's roughly what I have in mind. It is really complex and I haven't understood its mechanics after hundrets of hours playing.

For example suddly your character gained a point dexterity after opening a door. What?

That means that the systems of JA2 was collecting data for every and such action...

and always a very small amount.

Also the effect of skills in JA2:

If you perform an action, e.g. defusing a mine, it would calculate a result based on several character values.

(explosive skills, dexterity, experience, perhaps even more).

What I want to say:

Both the way you gain experience in things and how this progress effects your actions should be a complex matter.

Than you don't have this gimiky feeling.

A second important thing is: Everything should take quite a bit of time.

You want to chop wood for 2 hours straight? Hell, noone will stop you...

And you will gain in strength and other skills...

But these two hours of work will just result in .... +5% from your starting value to max.

And now just add a sound hearable by other players and someone will come and help you chopping, in some way or the other.

I see the player naturally improve over time, in very small instances.

Edited January 16, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[Dayz Steve 26]

One possible way improve the the above system is to have character to start at different ages, where older character have some starting skills, but take longer to learn new skills or improve the ones they have. If you start your character off young you get no skills, but you are able to improve quickly in things you do.

[victusmortuus 1074]

I think this type of skill system is something Dayz Lacks! It sorely needs it. It would make the game more changeling, also something to play for. Have high level skills unlocking the ability to do exceptional skills, like building a glider, jet pack (Joking here) or building underground bases.

For the people who say Dayz is just PVP is total crap. Your fighting against the elements, your characters attributes and needs. Thats all PVE, Zombies are PVE elements you guys need to open your eyes how PVE elements will improve PVP gameplay.

Why do games NEED ingame skills? Why can't my skills as a player be reflected onto my character. Do I REALLY need more stamina and be able to run forever or have an increased aim because I killed X Zombies? This idea is weak.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Why do games NEED ingame skills? Why can't my skills as a player be reflected onto my character. Do I REALLY need more stamina and be able to run forever or have an increased aim because I killed X Zombies? This idea is weak.

You haven't read my posts properly.

The reasons are threefold:

Adress long term motivation, the abundance of PvP and the low consequence of death.

It was also stated shooting skills will remain the same all the time.

There wouldn't be a single firefight where you loose and think; oh damn, he was high level.

Areas of effect: Medical / Technical / Carrying stuff / Stamina

and special areas like chopping wood, gutting animals and that stuff.

It may save your life though if you can light your fire with 1 match instead of 3

or have an experienced mate in medicals who won't infect you giving a blood transfusion.

That's stuff experienced characters just do better than people just waking up on the coast...

Some people won't like it of course... you can't run around, kill, kill, die, get your stuff back, kill kill...

well, you can, but other people who stay alive for a long period of time will have their advantages.

Edited January 16, 2013 by GodOfGrain