Skill System in DayZ?

[GodOfGrain 191]

Poll has now been added to the discussion.

The more I have discussed this idea with you guys

the more I am persuaded that this could be a good way for the future development.

I hope we can keep the discussion going and get much support for this idea,

so Rocket will have a look at this at some point of time.

Thanks for your participation in the vote.

[Wep0n 532]

As much as i hate the general idea of a skill system, the way it is presented seems to be pretty interesting.

i must say it has defenitely some potential.

for my part, i like the idea that the character progresses the longer he survives. while i still think your own skills should play the biggest role in the game (reading maps/stars, flying helicopters, repairing stuff)

I defenitely agree that the "gear" of a guy should not define his worth.

but i still think that instead of a skill system, the usual mechanics should be extended in a way that you need to learn it by yourself. for example instead having a repair car skill, there should be a more challenging and complicated way to repair the car.

if you can repair a car in real life, you should be able to do it in the game. there should be some kinda interface of the engine for example, and a skilled player can tell you what is broken and how it can be fixed.

Also if a character dies it is already very frustrating, especially when the gear will not be so easily retrievable in the standalone. loosing your skills is just double frustrating.

I still must decide if i want to vote yes or no for this poll, because i think that it defenitely is a good way to implement a skill system.

i still think that there are better ways to enhance the experience by making most mechanisms dependent on the skill and knowledge of the player, and not the character... for example clothing. you will customize your character heavily by choosing what clothing you wear, in terms of survival, stealth, mobility, encumbrance... this should affect your character alot more than "the time your character ran around in the world"

Edited January 19, 2013 by Wep0n

[joe_mcentire 2074]

if you can repair a car in real life, you should be able to do it in the game. there should be some kinda interface of the engine for example, and a skilled player can tell you what is broken and how it can be fixed.

i think this is just too far-fetched. so what i believe you would like to see is a somewhat sophisticated sort of "mini-game" where its outcome depends on the actual knowledge of one in this particular field?

And as far as some criticized the appearing "unfairness" it would be much more unfair, because i doubt you would take some books and go to learn the mechanics and electronics to better understand the functionality of cars. By saying this, yeah i ghet something out of this idea, but as mentioned before, not only it seems to be too far-fetched but also highly unlikely due to the enormous efforts to implement. (imagine the devs themselves would need to understand /study the various fields)

But yes it would even be an alternative to a skill system. It is nice to see ppl cranking up their imagination :thumbsup:

[WiFiN 55]

In one of the dev interviews I heard they are actually introducing the skills into the game.

And I have to say we NEED some kind of character progression if we want to supress current deathmatch tendencies.

I think that rather than making chance based make some tasks require decent skill level:

So changing tire can be performed by literally anyone, but installing a heli rotor or a car engine will require high engineering skill.

A bandage can be applied by anyone, but defibrilation (if implemented) or clear identification of the infection you have can be performed only by qualified medic.

A skilled hunter will aquire more meat from animals or can even craft something out of hides (we are going to have crafting I presume).

And so on.

Skilled players will be a valuable asset even for bandits. It will also bolster interactions between lonewolves as right now they have almost nothing to exchange.

Edited January 19, 2013 by WiFiN

[joe_mcentire 2074]

by observing the infection thread: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/107637-feedback-on-status-of-infectious-diseases-in-dayz/

you now and then read ideas of becoming immune to some diseases. As infection and dealing with it will play a great deal in the SA i wonder myself if it will be worthwile to become immune and considerably more to become some sort of a medic? Will this inevitably lead to a full skill system solution to be implemented as well? well my intuition tells me there will be some sort of skills, one way or the other....

[Wep0n 532]

@joe_mcentire: well driving a helicopter is going to be alot more difficult and realistic. it requires alot of skill, and only a few people are able to navigate it.

now this might be considered "unfair" aswell, but it will cause people to be skilled in a section where not many others are.

same thing will be for the infection system:

if you know the symptoms, you may find out the kind of sickness the person has (maby also by looking at the person's face)

and the "medic" will be able to find the correct medecine for the disease. to be a medic you first need the knowledge, and a good assortment of medecine which will take up alot of space in your backpack.

you should be able to specialize in one thing, so you can help others. and accept a trade-off between the professions, you can not be everything at once.

most of the things can be looked at the wiki, and the car repair interface i mentioned can be simplified, but still require some knowledge, and materials.

and if you lack knowledge by not reading the wiki, you might be able to find some kinda handbook which explains it to you.

people should be able to contribute to something, and if you want to achieve something, you NEED help, you cannot reach everything alone.

people need to help eachother to survive alot more, and the focus on PVP is just too high at the moment.

a skill system is just a bit dull. it is just a cheap mechanic making someone a medic, whitout the guy knowing anything about medicinal stuff.

DayZ is a sophisticated game, and requires people to learn something if they want to be good at it. if they are not interested in learning it, well then they will most certainly accept the fact that the will need others to do it for them. (like driving helicopters, which exists already and is ultra hard in the standalone)

sure, as a lone wulf you can go hunting and pretty much live by yourself, aslong as you can do basic maintaining of guns, and take care not to get sick.

but if you want to get vehicles, get cured from a serious illness, or drive a helicopter, you will need some knowledge and materials which you probably might not have, so a basic interaction with people might be required.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Wep0n

[dragonkatol 135]

It is just a cheap mechanic making someone a *insert role here*

QFTW!

I agree with this guy.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

well to be honest i quite like your approach. omg just imagine ppl study (more or less ;)) medicine, mechanics or botany because of a freakin' game. this has some nobel prize potential. I mean the idea of doing an anamnesis caused of observable signs ingame ..it would be a blast and adds depth beyond believe

hmm.. but there's still remains the problem how to proper value a dayz-life. Assuming the system you suggest will be implemented. after some time everything is still again known by everyone and just by dying you don't lose anything besides your equipment. So after some time here we are again.

I see your point in claiming skills you have ingame shall only be results of your actual and real life knowledge and/or skills, but there are some other points which where brought up that still remain unaffected.

After some time progression is still again a question of equipment. There is no bondage to your actual character (besides yeah again the equipment), sooner or later again abundance of PVP and still the remaining question of long-term motivation.

It's sufficent for me if you see my point.

And up to that point, thanks for everyone beeing constructive, i appreciate that! :beans: you shall have!

[joe_mcentire 2074]

QFTW!

I agree with this guy.

hmm profound arguments you made... very well then...

[GodOfGrain 191]

I think we can all agree that it is prefarable to have something based on real skill rather than a "skill".

Like flying a helicopter in the take-one-helicopter engine, great example!

Where it is possible, introduce stuff like that.

@ Weap0n

Where we touch things like being a medic; it will hardly be based on a real skill.

The SA-desease mechanics will be more complicated, but it will just takes weeks

until you can read everthing essential on a wiki.

Not everything can be simulted to a degree where real skill matters.

And - and here I repeat myself - a skill system remains a very good way to adress the life=low-value issue,

as progress is bound to a specific character.

[Wep0n 532]

After some time progression is still again a question of equipment. There is no bondage to your actual character (besides yeah again the equipment), sooner or later again abundance of PVP and still the remaining question of long-term motivation.

you are absolutely right about that one.

but aquiring skills passively is not adding alot of long-term motivation either.

i understand you and the appeal of such a system, but i do not think that this is going to add much to the game....

when you die, you will be like: "ugh, now i need to get all that stuff back"

with skills, you will be like "ugh, this is going to take a loong time until i'm back to normal"

so i really do not see a revolutionary way to deal with that issue.

Long term motivation really is a key, and once exploring will become boring (unless they add new maps like atleast 1-2 a year)

Rocket once mentioned group created underground bunkers eve/minecraft style with almost endless potential.

now i do not know if that was a vision far away which might not even come true, but giving the tools for a community or group on a server to create their own experience/content will add alot of motivation.

if you extend the possibilities a character can make in a sandboxy-manner such as minecraft/gmod/eve online, you get alot of content which will keep the game fresh for a long time.

Edit: @GodOfGrain:

while you certainly might be right at some points, having a extensive medical equipment will be bound to the character aswell.

first: looting people will be alot more difficult, so dont expect someone to just steal the medic stuff and become one himself.

second: finding all that equipment will take a shitload of time and space inside of the backpack. there is an extended amount of rare items to become a proper medic, and you will build up your character slowly and steadily, but this will be active, instead of passively aquiring skills.

its just more authentic that way, than having that "magical hand" in the background which just lets you progress.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Wep0n

[dallas 5195]

I've read the OP, but I don't see why I would be forced to declare it in a poll, just because someone thinks I haven't, because I don't automatically agree with his opinion. Screw that.

As of now the medical system is rough around the edges and very simple, however being a medic in DayZ already is something that takes dedication. What's cool about DayZ is also that the medics shaped their role themselves. Their motivation was personal and internal and not based on some externa reward system, they simply did it to help others.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Dallas

[GodOfGrain 191]

you are right, regarding long term motivation a skill system is not more than an element.

"More stuff to do" is much more important here.

I think the key importance of a skill system is to support identification with the character.

And here I am sure it will affect a lot. Those skills you could obtain over time are not

game changing, but important nonetheless. Especially if you think about negative

points. E.g. you are getting shot in the leg. The system allows to simulate these effects

through a lower running speed for example.

Imagine this situation, although my chracter would be crippled more or less,

I would try to keep him alive, because now this character is indeed unique and has a history.

[GodOfGrain 191]

However just like bloodbags can be exploited to boost your humanity, as you've said yourself some people will just grind this system to gain these bonuses.

As of now the medical system is rough around the edges and very simple, however being a medic in DayZ already is something that takes dedication. What's cool about DayZ is also that the medics shaped their role themselves. Their motivation was personal and internal and not based on some externa reward system, they simply did it to help others.

Systems like this - in the end - are always exploitable to some degree.

No way around this, you are right.

But I belieVe it won't be a big deal in DayZ.

Three reasons:

Permenant death - those grinders will have a hard life ... working hard for this extra XP and then die would feel terrible

Possible counters - Running around to gain stamina? Increase food and thirst rate in a scenario of scare resources

or add sound to "chopping wood" so it's a danger to do this for a longer peroid of time

or all resources are really scare, e.g. bloodbags, so giving 10 bloodbags for exp wouldn't be possible

Low reward - The system only adresses survival skills. You don't need this stuff to compete in combat.

Edited January 19, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[Wep0n 532]

E.g. you are getting shot in the leg. The system allows to simulate these effects

through a lower running speed for example.

Imagine this situation, although my chracter would be crippled more or less,

I would try to keep him alive, because now this character is indeed unique and has a history.

well making a character permanently crippled will cause most people to commit suicide, i do not think many people would appreciate such an approach.

but i certainly appreciate factors which make the character unique and give him a history. it should not affect the gameplay in the longterm though. the broken leg should be fixed after a while (lets say some hours) just for the sake of gameplay.

but having a permanent scar after such an event defenitely could add something to the game, as it is only cosmetic and a sign what the character has been trough.(most people do not want to exploit getting scars, because that means getting wounded and maby die)

getting passive "skills" that affect gameplay on the other hand does not seem to be the right approach, for the sake of exploitability and the reasons i already mentioned above.

Edit: corrected some grammar/additions

Edited January 19, 2013 by Wep0n

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Rocket once mentioned group created underground bunkers eve/minecraft style with almost endless potential.

now i do not know if that was a vision far away which might not even come true, but giving the tools for a community or group on a server to create their own experience/content will add alot of motivation.

if you extend the possibilities a character can make in a sandboxy-manner such as minecraft/gmod/eve online, you get alot of content which will keep the game fresh for a long time.

yeah..but i doubt "just" more square miles of environment will compensate things like depth in game, eventually rather literally, by going underground.

here a very inappropriate example:

I don't know if you guys played Skyrim. Goty and what not. Huge accross the board. Sure it's nice to go and see that and that and this and oohh and uuuhhh. In my opinion the game itself had remarkably little depth! Yeah it had its moments, but what is left beside huge, epic landscapes and brightly polished graphics?

well...ok..just my personal opinion...but just to make a point.

Back to topic: Dayz is different, it is in a way simple, yet tough and tricky, it doesn't deliver on graphics, it even has major bugs...but it delivers atmosphere, some sort of credibility and emotions. Moreover it delivers depth!

So adding more environmental content is not an argument i personally count on. But yeah it surely will keep the game fresh for a long time.

Edited January 19, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[dallas 5195]

In Skyrim you end up grinding your skills rather than playing the game. If I block this crap/crab 5 more times instead of killing it, I'll level up.

Stamina in DayZ is directly correlating to accuracy, so someone chopping wood all day or autorunning into a corner would have a major advantage in combat.

[GodOfGrain 191]

well making a character permanently crippled will cause most people to commit suicide, i do not think many people would appreciate such an approach.

but i certainly appreciate factors which make the character unique and give him a history. it should not affect the gameplay in the longterm though. the broken leg should be fixed after a while (lets say some hours) just for the sake of gameplay.

[...]

On the other hand they will have learned important skills, like being

more efficient with matches, bandages or bloodags.

So people will start to think...

It is a question how big this penalty would be, but I am a fan of making

penalities (shots/infections) bigger than the possible gains from a skill system.

Player may suicide to get a fresh character, yes.

But at least now there is something which will make them think,

and from time to time they'd really identify with their character.

[Wep0n 532]

yeah..but i doubt "just" more square miles of environment will compensate things like depth in game, eventually rather literally, by going underground.

here a very inappropriate example:

I don't know if you guys played Skyrim. Goty and what not. Huge accross the board. Sure it's nice to go and see that and that and this and oohh and uuuhhh. In my opinion the game itself had remarkably little depth! Yeah it had its moments, but what is left beside huge, epic landscapes and brightly polished graphics?

well...ok..just my personal opinion...but just to make a point.

Back to topic: Dayz is different, it is in a way simple, yet tough and tricky, it doesn't deliver on graphics, it even has major bugs...but it delivers atmosphere, some sort of credibility and emotions. Moreover it delivers depth!

So adding more environmental content is not an argument i personally count on. But yeah it surely will keep the game fresh for a long time.

well skyrim is the total opposite of what i meant.

Skyrim is a scripted game, with a level-up skill system, both elements i do not want to see anywhere near dayZ.

I was talking about player generated content. sandbox mode!

skyrim is the complete opposite.

have you never been on a decent minecraft/gmod roleplay server?

its about the players who create the depth of the game, and not some scripted NPC's, events, skill trees, or bullshit like that.

it is just pure player interaction, and thats what i want DayZ to be*. an open sandbox world, giving the tools for the players to create unique experiences.

Edit: *Also harsh, realistic and survival based

Edited January 19, 2013 by Wep0n

[joe_mcentire 2074]

In Skyrim you end up grinding your skills rather than playing the game. If I block this crap/crab 5 more times instead of killing it, I'll level up.

Stamina in DayZ is directly correlating to accuracy, so someone chopping wood all day or autorunning into a corner would have a major advantage in combat.

yeah but don't forget: Skyrim is an RPG, so that is somehow the point of that in a way.

It would be nice to find out, if you would survive, in a harsh environment like chernarus, autorunning into a corner.

Well it seems clear to me that you don't just "blop" a skill system into a game without balancing, rebalancing, basically without an thoughtful embedding process whatsoever. So the "stamina-problem" can be solved within such a procedure.

[dallas 5195]

And that's why I see no reason to introduce a RPG element into DayZ this late in development, not only because it doesn't fit with the concept, but because you'd have to reballance classes, finetune skills and rethink the whole gameplay.

I think DayZ works so well, because the combination of DayZ and ArmA actually internalizes all these RPG elements in the player himself, instead of his character. This is also why these skills wont work as intended to decrease PvP, because for some their motivation is to get your beans.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

@Wep0n

i see. i think that's also a path which rocket wants to wander. Of course Minecraft can be called the long-awaited Messiah which shook the scene to the very foundations ;). Minecraft delivers utterly different tools. There is almost no room provided for PVP and it forces you obviously not only into building and exploring but also into interaction WITH other players.

Again Minecraft doesn't deliver the proper tools to give PVP any room nor actual sense.

Dayz on the other hand delivers exactly the tools for that. Sure thing, everything happens by choice of someone. But in this inhospitable world PVP is required. In this world Freuds super-ego is partly disabled, it has to be.

Broken down into its essence: Whereas Minecraft wants you to explore, dayz wants you to survive.

So doing and achieving things together, bond, build, create together is and will be always just partly able, it is supposed to be that way. Because everyone wants dayz as realistic as possible. there you have it: mankind is an ugly f*ckin' b*stard.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

And that's why I see no reason to introduce a RPG element into DayZ this late in development, not only because it doesn't fit with the concept, but because you'd have to reballance classes, finetune skills and rethink the whole gameplay.

yeahh...alright that just played in your hands, didn't it? not sure, if you had this argument all along ;)

well i wouldn't say it doesn't fit. well ok if you imagine as mentioned skyrimesque than maybe there is not much left to discuss. But always bear in mind our ideas from the beginning.

Do you know how far they are? you would be a very popular discussion partner these days. As i understand they wanted to release something by march april idk..but what i overheard was rocket talking about doing this and that to the end of the year and so forth. so i assume there will always be minor and/or major changes, add-ons, tweaks, rebalances etc almost weekly!... well then why not finetuning skills ;)

Edited January 19, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[Dayz Steve 26]

good general skill system.

[jasokun 4]

The best thing about this game is that everyone is given the same character, and it's determine by player skill, luck, and playstyle that differs what happens on their adventures. We are the humans, there is nothing special about anyone who plays, which makes it a real experience.