[for Standalone]Struggling(fight close and personal) - move-based method.

[WiFiN 55]

I had this huge post in another thread, but I'd like to receive some feedback for this idea. Please read the whole post before posting anything.

So you're in some urban area and suddenly you bump into someone else face to face - be it a zombie or a player. Most of the time people start shooting\swinging their axe at the enemy while waltzing around. I bet there should be an option to get into struggle with them to either shove them out of your way or disable them for a short period of time to get away or, if you are totally hostile - incapacitate them completely.

It is much better than clicking franticly with a melee weapon or trying to switch to melee while running against eachother forehead to forehead.

As it was proposed before, it can be done in this fashion:

Your character starts to go into a "tunnel vision" mode (just a visual deal), at which the player needs to use his mouse to look into the more visual area of his screen to keep focus in the struggle (from a FPV, as if you are in Alt-double tap's mode.). This would require the coding of a mini hidden game in the background so to speak - the person with the highest score at the end of 8 seconds wins, and the struggle is completed by the 10th second. This would eliminate any type of discrimination against a player that has a crap connection as compared to something with a better ping.

This can work for Alpha, but it will become boring soon enogh like it happened to hacking in Mass Effect 1.

How I see this, I'll try to keep it simple:

As soon as you are at point blank you hold a specific key for about a second and get into struggle with another person.

Holding one-handed weapon or unarmed:

The person initiating the struggle effectively grabs the opponent with one hand (leaving another for action).

Holding two-handed weapon:

you'll just punt your opponet, so he gets pushed back and can even trip sometimes (similar to L4D "shove off" action) - you're interested at keeping distance anyway.

Your struggle can be broken by third person - this will help if you're strangled by a zombie, or you have an ally close to you.

While you hold against eachother you can perform different moves. Each of them take time to perform, defined by animation, so you can't just spam them.

types of moves (with possible keymap in gaps):

Offensive

• disarm - attempt to make opponent drop his weapon (Shift)
  
• damage - try to weaken your opponent (Left click)
  
• drop - attempt to take your opponent to the ground (spacebar)
  

Defensive

• block - self-explainationary (Rclick + Lclick)
  
• break out - get out the struggle state (Rclick + Spacebar)
  
• dodge - dodge incoming attack (Rclick+Shift)
  

Used this system as it worked pretty well in assasin's creed and was pretty intuitive. Spacebar as a jump key you assingned is used for moves performed (mostly) by legs, block and damage are performed by right hand (Left click in mostly any game), shift for cunning moves or performed by offhand. Right mouse button lets you perform defensive moves and lets you perform offensive while released.

_________________________________________________________________

Here comes the difficult part. How to do this? Turn-based or real time?

I vote for real time:

You guess incoming enemy action by his movement and and decide what you do in return - it has to be tested out though.

How successfull your and his action would be are defined by numerous factors such as:

• health condition (health, fatigue, adrenaline),
  
• weight on the character (huge backpack makes you clumsy)
  
• equipped weapon(see below) (new stat "ergonomix" can be applied)
  
• equipped clothing\armor - based on protection and weight (new stat "ergonomix" can be applied)
  
• Skills (it is confirmed we'll have skills, so more experienced survivalist should have upper hand)
  

Also: struggling drains your stamina very fast, so the more you struggle - your fatigue will grow expotentially

Effect of the weapon equipped:

The one initiating has upper hand (with first move that is).

One-handed melee weapon or sidearm (as improvised blunt weapon) gives advantage at attacking moves.

Bare-handed gives advantage at dodging and disarming.

Two-handed melee and big firearms (shotguns and rifles) give advantage at defensive moves.

Upon successful drop action:

Both go to the ground, the one who managed to drop appears ontop of his opponent.

For the one ontop

• drop changes to finishing move which has a chance to either do massive damage resulting in fracture or to knock your opponent out
  
• performing break out has 95% chance to work.
  
• all moves have slightly increased chance for success
  

For the one below

• break out changes to switch sides, if you manage to do this you become the one ontop - this way you can turn the tides in your favor, even if the things went desperate
  

Initiating struggle from behind:

Holding one-handed weapon or unarmed:

70% chance to drop your opponent to the ground and appear ontop of him

Holding two-handed weapon:

100% chance to knock your opponent to the ground (hell, he'd be dead -anyway- if you got behind him at point blank.

Benefits:

1. This sytem allows us to have intense cinematic assaults as every single one will be different from another.
   
2. Easy to use, intuitive system.
   
3. Players define the duration of the fight themselves - if they spot some mutual threat they can both start pressing Break to get out of struggle.
   
4. Incapacitation over killing. You can reason your opponent while you struggle, drop him to the ground and run - you decide
   
5. Ambushing becomes even more intersting
   
6. Getting strangled by a zombie will be fun as well
   

In conclusion:

It is somewhat indepth system I tried to keep simple for the players. It might result in some pretty spectacular assaults especially if playes will keep swearing at eachother over comms while they are struggling and zombies are getting closer.

I'd like to hear your thoughts and ideas. I doubt that we'll see it at the release, but it would be a nice game mechanic to experience.

Edited April 23, 2013 by WiFiN

[colekern 1364]

I kinda like the idea. Like every idea, it needs work.

The main thing I like about it is that it's not a QTE. As long as we keep QTE's out of it, I think I'm good.

The main thing that worries me is that a player who has low ping might have the upper hand over someone with high ping.

[Dylanco1 10]

I think the should be something like this but also the should be other stuff like when you struggle if the guy has a pistol he could shoot it and the is a chance for the impact to hit you and thus murder you even though your in the struggle it happens but also you should have other things above it like you can struggle to steal weapons but not all the ammo (So like in real life where a guy without a sling tries to pull the Rifle out of Guy B's Grip who is also trying to steal it from Guy A at the same time) And to balance it the Animation Movement goes as fast as the person who ISNT the instigator is pinging the server so a Low ping bandit might think twice about fighting a High Ping Hero and Vice Versa

[Faggala 29]

I like this idea more than the other struggle one

[Tooka (DayZ) 7]

I like this idea more than the other struggle one

Me too. It should most definitely be skill based and not a key spam competition. Weapons could play a very interesting role struggles. I think it would be cool if there was an execute button which would perform something different based on your weapon. If you are unarmed, you would attempt to strangle your enemy. If you have a a knife you would try to stab them but this could be reversed on you. If you have a pistol you could try to point the gun at them and shoot them but this could be reversed on you as well. I think you should be able to throw enemies as well.

The fight scenes in the movie Taken are perfect examples of what struggles could be like.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Tooka

[Bribase 251]

I'm all for the motivation for a decent hand to hand combat system but I don't think this is the right implementation. Cinematic minigames and QTEs just don't seem like the kind of solution that works for DayZ, they are really only effective for single player games and games with this kind of combat at their core.

I think that something closer to the block, break, attack system of melee like dishonored fits the game better. Melee should be selectable using the weapon select key you use for grenades, flares e.t.c. The same modifiers like fatigue, health, carry weight and the weapon you are holding should acts as modifiers for your ability to block and attack. Once an enemy is subdued (knocked to the floor) you have the option to knock them out with a single blow or to kill with repeated blows.

This ensures that fights are as fluid as the gunplay and complex enough for players to need to get the hang of without spoiling immersion with QTEs and minigames.

[colekern 1364]

I'm all for the motivation for a decent hand to hand combat system but I don't think this is the right implementation. Cinematic minigames and QTEs just don't seem like the kind of solution that works for DayZ, they are really only effective for single player games and games with this kind of combat at their core.

I think that something closer to the block, break, attack system of melee like dishonored fits the game better. Melee should be selectable using the weapon select key you use for grenades, flares e.t.c. The same modifiers like fatigue, health, carry weight and the weapon you are holding should acts as modifiers for your ability to block and attack. Once an enemy is subdued (knocked to the floor) you have the option to knock them out with a single blow or to kill with repeated blows.

This ensures that fights are as fluid as the gunplay and complex enough for players to need to get the hang of without spoiling immersion with QTEs and minigames.

The way I see it, this is just a basic skeleton. In other words, we keep it skill and button press based, but then we modify it to fit DayZ from there.

[WiFiN 55]

I'm all for the motivation for a decent hand to hand combat system but I don't think this is the right implementation. Cinematic minigames and QTEs just don't seem like the kind of solution that works for DayZ, they are really only effective for single player games and games with this kind of combat at their core.

I think that something closer to the block, break, attack system of melee like dishonored fits the game better. Melee should be selectable using the weapon select key you use for grenades, flares e.t.c. The same modifiers like fatigue, health, carry weight and the weapon you are holding should acts as modifiers for your ability to block and attack. Once an enemy is subdued (knocked to the floor) you have the option to knock them out with a single blow or to kill with repeated blows.

Uhhh... do you realize you're offering exactly what is described in the OP? (unless you were answering someone else in the discussion)

What I suggested is far from minigames and QTE's in their main meaning (slam random series of keys to not die). It is block\break\attack-based although I haven't played Dishonored I should try it now. You can't select the weapon during the struggle though - you have in your hands what you've been caught with. But yeah - consequent attack\defense moves are the base of the system. I'm still on fence about using firearms in their primary meaning during strugge - you know, they are supposed to me effective from more than several feet away - any weapons specialist will tell you that one of the main rules is to keep distance. So to ease things up for implementation - I'd say say they should be used as improvised melee weapon - exception would be finishing blows.

[Bribase 251]

Uhhh... do you realize you're offering exactly what is described in the OP? (unless you were answering someone else in the discussion)

What I suggested is far from minigames and QTE's in their main meaning (slam random series of keys to not die). It is block\break\attack-based although I haven't played Dishonored I should try it now.

Have you played Dishonored yet?(You should, it's excellent). The swordplay isn't QTE based at all though, perhaps I didn't explain properly. The combat is based on a simple attack/block system where blocking an attack at the right time in their swing leaves the enemy off balance and open to attack for a moment. This leaves for a simple but dynamic combat system that balances well. The guy with a knife has a disadvantage blocking the guy swinging his axe at you but if his attack is broken it gives you endless amounts of time to stab him. There is no engagement mechanic or true QTEs.

[jayman9696 14]

Firstly this has no practical application to make game play better. Secondly this Game isn't assassins creed why would we take a blocking and attacking mechanic. Finally this is based of a military simulator. It isn't realistic to go in a hand to hand call if duty move when you have a gun.

[scoffield77@gmail.com 192]

I generally like this idea, though I'm not sure how it would work in DayZ... To be honest, i'd like to see a indie game dev make a small fighting game using these mechanics, based off the Arma engine. I also feel the controls are a bit clunky. I can see my self trying to block, and it reads it as the right click offensive actions.

I think the controls for melee should be more like Chivalry, or War of the roses. If you could some how couple those two games mechanics, plus your grappling mechanics, i think it would come out to be quite nice.

Either way, I feel the 'lock on' dance that you suggest is a little imprisoning. I did do a little martial arts back in the day, and it isn't that hard to get away from someone unless you are in a submission or completely committed to taking him down. This 1 on 1 dance you suggest, would be huge disadvantage if one party has 2 members. 2v1 is a disadvantage but if one person is locked in a animation and the only way out is by rolling the dice on a move, then trying is pointless. You've trapped your self in.

If these 'animations' can be entered in and broken in split seconds, It would completely change the way i thought of your idea. Say you are struggling with someone, Just kick them and jump back.

Like I said, This needs a little chivalry and war of the roses influence, If it took away from the 'man at arms' dodge technique to break contact would be a huge plus. Would also require a kick to break defense, and a cancel key to fake out your enemy.

And War of the Roses "Click and Drag" attack system is prob the best melee system out there, at least for diversity in attacks.

Why I bring up these two titles is mainly because they capture what melee combat is... A art form that requires skill, timing, etc. You can see if you're enemy is attacking with a sideways swing or a downwards stroke, and act accordingly, rather that's ducking, parry, or dodge. You have to act fast, be decisive and understand what your enemy is doing or you end up dead.

Another reason I can't stand by your idea fully is cause it is a roll of the dice.. it's all by chance. I like that being hurt, heavy, sick weakens your chances, but to be honest, i think these negative attributes should just slow you down. making it easier for the enemy to acknowledged what your next move is.

if I was to be brutally honest. I think this game should mimic Chivalry completely, When you have a gun, it's Arma2... when you switch to a melee weapon, it's Chivalry.

I may have misunderstood your post a little, sorry if I did. I did read it though ;) but I'm not sure if it is complete a roll of the dice mechanic. If it isn't.. just ignore those bits :D

[WiFiN 55]

I generally like this idea, though I'm not sure how it would work in DayZ...

Pretty informative post over there, thanks for the flaws noted! Could you add some links to the videos demonstrating this system or at least links to the games? That would help to get the idea :)

And yeah, you got almost every thing right, and also yeah, you missed those lines :P :

Your struggle can be broken by third person - this will help if you're strangled by a zombie, or you have an ally close to you.

Players define the duration of the fight themselves - if they spot some mutual threat they can both start pressing Break to get out of struggle.

About the "roll of a dice":

The whole success is defined by 4 major factors:

• The weapon you use (check OP)
  
• Your current state (health, fatigue, skill level, e.t.c.)
  
• The move you choose (i.e. responding with offensive move to offensive will most likely make you catch the blow)
  

This way it will be neither totally random, nor repetitive.

Why I excluded timing? Well we can use it, but that means that players with lower ping will always have an upper hand, which is not fair (in a bad meaning).

if I was to be brutally honest. I think this game should mimic Chivalry completely, When you have a gun, it's Arma2... when you switch to a melee weapon, it's Chivalry.

These are golden words, my friend. I think that melee should receive more attention in the SA than it used to have. Eveyone and their dog shouldn't be running around with M249 and such system may bring more to it.

Edited January 16, 2013 by WiFiN

[tombom 28]

Obviously a lot of work would have to be put into it it's not gonna be easy but its not a bad idea at all i think it would only improve gameplay and entertainment

[joe_mcentire 2074]

you have my beans and my axe!

[scoffield77@gmail.com 192]

Here are some short tutrials to show the melee mechanics of chivalry:

I think I got the roll of a dice from thinking to much on changes in 'strength' due to health/weight/etc.

The current melee mechanics is just shooting mechanics with extremely limited range and a axe thrown in there to give the illusion that it's real melee, So there will be a change no matter what. But I hope it's something good with substance, and not some crap cliche swing

[Rekli 995]

i have more the idea of certain scenes in CoD3 (the best cod in my opinion XD) where you would walk through a doorway and a nazi would grab your rifle and fight for control of the rifle (this of course would only work if 1 of you was holding a rifle)

[Bribase 251]

Here are some short tutrials to show the melee mechanics of chivalry:

The current melee mechanics is just shooting mechanics with extremely limited range and a axe thrown in there to give the illusion that it's real melee, So there will be a change no matter what. But I hope it's something good with substance, and not some crap cliche swing

These look excellent. There is a lot to figure out though if the combat is based on this. You can't really stab with an axe and what happens when you have no weapon for instance.

[WiFiN 55]

Here are some short tutrials to show the melee mechanics of chivalry:

*media*

The current melee mechanics is just shooting mechanics with extremely limited range and a axe thrown in there to give the illusion that it's real melee, So there will be a change no matter what. But I hope it's something good with substance, and not some crap cliche swing

Wow, this looks really cool! It looks like Age of Chivalry mod legacy.

But it looks quite complex - I mean, all those moves... do they depend on your movement direction or do they all have specific buttons to press?

Because chivalry seems to be a fencing simulator and numerous key-binds are okay in those circumstances.

The system I suggest uses default intuitive keys (check the OP) for the moves. If we want to have such system (I mean the one like Chivalry) in the game we should consider the following:

1. DayZ is not about knights - thus moves should be straightforward and simple.
   
2. They should be easy to learn\use. (i.e. minimum or none extra key-binds, intuitive in use)
   

What about:

Lclick = swing

Rclick = block

Rclick+Space = shove off\kick

hold Lclick = charged strike (downward swing with axe, stab with a knife)

Rclick+Lclick = attempt to throw opponent off balance\knockout (chance-based in combat, 100% if performed from behind)

That's rather easy to implement as it would only require some new animations.

[scoffield77@gmail.com 192]

It's the sequel I think lol. But yeah it is, and I don't think it should be exactly like that. To many moves, to complicated, spec with everything else the game has to do.. But that as a base line. Though DayZ isn't about knights, I do think medieval games are a good influence on any melee combat system. If it's Chivalry, or Warband - mount and blade. Medieval games do it right. And in DayZ guns may very well play a secondary roll in a lot of conflicts. Because of that they should have good melee mechanics ;)

But you're right, Chivalry is a little much.

I think you get the concept, It's just your key binding I don't like ;) If someone anciently hit RMB before hitting the LMB trying to do a 'throw', the game may read that as a block. I do think we're getting somewhere.

What if.. there is a hot key that switches your stance. like in some fighting games where you can go from Krav Maga, to Mouy Thai or how ever you spell it.

the Hot key will switch you from 'range' to melee, thus you can use your stance from using a gun as a ... well a gun... in to a club. This would give the players the abilities to maybe throw their melee weapons in the heat of a battle if needs be. if that's even possible. through, throwing something would have to be extremely difficult

Say the (`~) key is for switching stances. It's unused anyway, though it can be any key.. a lot will be open since DayZ is getting rid of a lot of Arma features

That will switch LMB from shoot to attack.. RMB from aim to parry.. F+ (ASWD) from cycle ROF to dodge... R from reload to kick.. etc. for w.e else you think should be in melee combat.

I changed your charge feature to dodge, because if you dodge forward .i.e. F+W then you can swing, and it would mimic a charge.

Though I strongly suggest blocking should be parrying instead. Much like Chivalry parrying where you can only parry within a set time frame before the parry is cancel and your open again for an attack. This way people have to time it, and not just hold block.

[Bribase 251]

What if.. there is a hot key that switches your stance. like in some fighting games where you can go from Krav Maga, to Mouy Thai or how ever you spell it.

the Hot key will switch you from 'range' to melee, thus you can use your stance from using a gun as a ... well a gun... in to a club. This would give the players the abilities to maybe throw their melee weapons in the heat of a battle if needs be. if that's even possible. through, throwing something would have to be extremely difficult

Say the (`~) key is for switching stances. It's unused anyway, though it can be any key.. a lot will be open since DayZ is getting rid of a lot of Arma features

I have a sneaking suspicion that the awkward weapon switch key will be removed in SA (it's a terrible solution, binding everything from what to throw through to your fire mode) but I see melee being toggled in a similar way to that.

[scoffield77@gmail.com 192]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the awkward weapon switch key will be removed in SA (it's a terrible solution, binding everything from what to throw through to your fire mode) but I see melee being toggled in a similar way to that.

Are you talking about the F key?

[xx_fr0st-w0lf_xx 53]

While it is not a bad idea, I don't see why it should be added any time soon, way more important things to worry about and I am rarely That close to some that I can shove them, it happens when Im axe hunting but not more then that.

[CreepySalad 108]

Firstly this has no practical application to make game play better. Secondly this Game isn't assassins creed why would we take a blocking and attacking mechanic. Finally this is based of a military simulator. It isn't realistic to go in a hand to hand call if duty move when you have a gun.

please stop

what are you even saying

[joe_mcentire 2074]

i don't know this approach either. to be this authentic as possible it would be most certainly make sense to get down to hand to hand action. As for the "round-based" approach, i'm very sceptical about this (right now). Punching, brawling, disarming moves, would take the immersion to a whole other level. Especially as there has some melee action already been confirmed.

[thefirecrack3r 6]

Wow, this looks really cool! It looks like Age of Chivalry mod legacy.

But it looks quite complex - I mean, all those moves... do they depend on your movement direction or do they all have specific buttons to press?

Because chivalry seems to be a fencing simulator and numerous key-binds are okay in those circumstances.

The system I suggest uses default intuitive keys (check the OP) for the moves. If we want to have such system (I mean the one like Chivalry) in the game we should consider the following:

1. DayZ is not about knights - thus moves should be straightforward and simple.
   
2. They should be easy to learn\use. (i.e. minimum or none extra key-binds, intuitive in use)
   

What about:

Lclick = swing

Rclick = block

Rclick+Space = shove off\kick

hold Lclick = charged strike (downward swing with axe, stab with a knife)

Rclick+Lclick = attempt to throw opponent off balance\knockout (chance-based in combat, 100% if performed from behind)

That's rather easy to implement as it would only require some new animations.

Chivalry's combat is all very localized on the mouse. Close to what you recommended. L-click is swing, R-click blocks, scroll forward stabs, scroll back to swing over hand. I think F kicked (which is basically the shove) and clicking the scroll button may have done something, though I don't remember. If a skill based melee system is going to be implemented, Chivalry's is not a bad one to borrow from. I think if its done like this, and you wanted to throw something, clicking the "scroller" on your mouse could throw your weapon, this would keep melee combat mainly on the mouse, and keeping it simple.