If the bandit skins are still in the standalone I'm going to be pissed.

[ZTrainz 21]

I don't get it, why do people only care about KoS if it's a survivor that gets killed? A bandit that kills a few people is worse than a survivor that kills 25 bandits?

Welcome to western society. The values have been carried over by the players and there's nothing you can do about it - except get your entertainment elsewhere. A vigilante skin is a good idea though.

Good guy vs Bad guy. You know what that sounds like? Sounds like death matching to me. Determining the status of a player is through communication. You shouldn't walk up to a player and be like. "Hey, you friendly?" You should be cautious, observing their behavior. Who is to say that bandit skinned guy isn't actually a really friendly guy? Who is to say that survivor skinned guy isn't secretly plotting to stab you in the back?

Just admit it, you want an indicator to give you a heads up of who is potentionally good or bad. I say potentionally because again, that bandit could have just killed in self defense. That survivor could have a hankering for killing people, maybe he was a bandit and died and so now he's returning to his roots. Skins do nothing for game play. I'd rather see each person able to customize their own look, then maybe you can have some interaction.

"Hey man, the guy walking around in the bright yellow pants likes to hatchet people. If you see him you might wanna be cautious."

Or I suspect bandits/evil doers will want to have a more mischevious look with some creepy mask and so forth. Or you could have the Mr. Rodgers looking serial killer, list goes on and on. You see what I did there? I added customization to the game to allow a player to play their story and not be adapted to the game saying. "This is what you're going to look like if you help/kill people."

LOL... you just said "Give us moar HATS!!!"

You just don't get it. I don't think you ever will.

[FLMedic Doc 16]

Proposal: Blood stains

The more people you kill, the more blood you will have on your skin, till...your covered with only red

as time passes by(should be a while, not 1 or 5 min), the blood stain will slowly fade away

When you have little blood- Hmm this guy murdered but maybe it's accident/self defense/friendly fire etc (At least this makes them think before deciding your fate... BAM* DEAD)

when you have lots of blood-Whoa this guy may be up to no good, i know it still could be in self defense, but i can't make mistakes (At least you will not be kos just because you suddenly got a bandit skin)

This gets rid of the problem of Hero n' bandit skin, since there's nothing stopping a bandit from helping another survivor or a hero killing bambies. No more OH LOOK IT'S A JERK MUST KILL HIM or OH LOOK IT'S A HERO LET'S HOLD HANDS

Is that better?

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Welcome to western society. The values have been carried over by the players and there's nothing you can do about it - except get your entertainment elsewhere. A vigilante skin is a good idea though.

LOL... you just said "Give us moar HATS!!!"

You just don't get it. I don't think you ever will.

No, what I essentially said is give us more customization and let us play the game how we want to play it. What you are saying is... I want to know if a player is good/bad just by looking at them.

[ZTrainz 21]

No, what I essentially said is give us more HATS and let us play CoD.

Fixed that for ya...

Honestly and all BS aside, when I read your post my first thought was "This guy wants WarZ."

Incidentally, the first two weeks of WarZ alpha were perfect example of what happens to a "sandbox" game without consequences.

What you are saying is... I want to know if a player is good/bad just by looking at them.

Kinda, yeah.

Now you tell me how terrible/noobish/carebearish we all are for wanting that.

Then I say that you're a complete idiot for not seeing how this can enrich the gameplay.

To which you reply, "But, but I want moar HATS!!! And cool masks, and bullet proof vests and awesome skull skins for my AS50. I'll even pay Rocket extra for them."

Come on Dreygar, lets keep this spiral going straight to The Graveyard.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

You're right. I don't see how forcing players to wear a skin enriches gameplay. If all players want to dress up and look like one type of faction and call themselves whatever, then that is way more immersive than the game saying... You did bad, you wear this skin. You did good, you wear this skin.

You compare what I said with COD about customization, but the same argument could be said about you trying to force people into factions (bandit, hero, vigilante, survivor) whatever you want to call them which basically means. If you look like this, I'm going to shoot you... So how is that not like typical shooter games like COD?

If you are a hero and you see a bandit, are you going to walk up to them and trade beans? No, you're going to shoot him. IE, deathmatch.

[ZTrainz 21]

Did you even read the threads that oppose your view?

The only way to avoid some version of deathmatch is to remove the ability to kill players. No one wants that for DayZ so we'll just assume pking will always be present. As long as pking is possible there will be some version of deathmatch. So the real question becomes, what type of deathmatch do we want for DayZ?

No forced visual identifiers gives us free-for-all deathmatch. Skins give us team deathmatch. With the skins, you still have the vast majority of the population still being unknowns. You've said it yourself, survivors might kill you when they see you or they might not. It's that uncertainty that we want in every encounter. Knowing that 99% of your encounters will end in a firefight is bad. Just as bad is knowing that 99% of heroes that you meet won't shoot you unprovoked.

Seriously, if you can come up with a system that regulates pking effectively enough to take the game away from one these deathmatch modes without breaking immersion (forced skins/tags/etc.) someone will pay you a lot of money for it. Other games have tried to find this before but have ultimately resorted to skins or failed to sustain the balance.

Until someone figures out the magic formula, you're gonna have to accept forced skins because the majority of us don't want FFA DM (which is basically what everyone means when they tell someone to go back to CoD).

Anyway, if this doesn't clarify things for you someone else will have to break it down for ya. I'm off to kill some bambis (no, not the DayZ kind).

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Did you even read the threads that oppose your view?

The only way to avoid some version of deathmatch is to remove the ability to kill players. No one wants that for DayZ so we'll just assume pking will always be present. As long as pking is possible there will be some version of deathmatch. So the real question becomes, what type of deathmatch do we want for DayZ?

No forced visual identifiers gives us free-for-all deathmatch. Skins give us team deathmatch. With the skins, you still have the vast majority of the population still being unknowns. You've said it yourself, survivors might kill you when they see you or they might not. It's that uncertainty that we want in every encounter. Knowing that 99% of your encounters will end in a firefight is bad. Just as bad is knowing that 99% of heroes that you meet won't shoot you unprovoked.

Seriously, if you can come up with a system that regulates pking effectively enough to take the game away from one these deathmatch modes without breaking immersion (forced skins/tags/etc.) someone will pay you a lot of money for it. Other games have tried to find this before but have ultimately resorted to skins or failed to sustain the balance.

Until someone figures out the magic formula, you're gonna have to accept forced skins because the majority of us don't want FFA DM (which is basically what everyone means when they tell someone to go back to CoD).

Anyway, if this doesn't clarify things for you someone else will have to break it down for ya. I'm off to kill some bambis (no, not the DayZ kind).

I agree the only way to stop player killing is to remove player killing from the equation. I completely understand what you are saying and I disagree with it. This is a game about MY story, I don't want to be forced on a team I don't want to play on for whatever reason during the course of my game. This game is a free for all, even if you think skins turns it into a team deatmatch instead. Putting indicators won't stop that. Anyone can kill anyone in this game. Bandits vs Bandits. Heros vs Heros. Hero vs Bandit. Survivor vs Hero vs Bandit vs Survivor...

I completely understand the argument that you and the other indicator-wanting players are trying to make, but I am simply disagreeing with it. If I had the choice of your method of having an indicator to determine a players status, and my method which includes various things that actually affect gameplay...

Though just so you aren't confused, what I suggest isn't a simple. "I want my character to look like batman." It's a complex system that allows you to survive better. Boots that might not degrade as fast, a jacket that will keep you warmer, a ballistic vest (yes, it does add to realism) that can potentionally save your life, and even some aspects of clothing that do nothing for gameplay other than allowing you to personalize, etc. When you start adding customization you will see how everyone starts becoming their own person, and not just the same ole vanilla skins.

If you still disagree, then well... I guess you'll have your opinion and I'll have mine and neither of us are wrong/right.

[Rage VG 4033]

Anyone can kill anyone in this game. Bandits vs Bandits. Heros vs Heros. Hero vs Bandit. Survivor vs Hero vs Bandit vs Survivor...

Door vs Survivor, Survivor vs Sheep... Endless possibilities.

[dallas 5195]

Some DayZ players will go out of their way to kill other players.

Some DayZ players will go out of their way to avoid killing others.

Some DayZ players are new and have not chosen their path yet.

Whether you're a hero, bandit or survivor, everyone one dies in DayZ.

New players learn from interaction with other players. When bandit skins were removed from DayZ, new players learned they got shot on sight, bandit players continued to KOS everyone, friendlies simply disappeared into the wilderness. While bandit skins were absent, few people showed restraint, while most lost all inhibition. When the skins were reintroduced, some players had becomes heroes, others faced a six digit negative humanity score and realized they had become permanent bandits.

When the bandit skin where reinstated, new players learned that their actions had consequences, just like in real life. Before pulling the trigger on anyone in sight, they had make a decision, whether to shed their humanity and risk getting hunted themselves or risk their safety, for helping strangers. Although you could never blindly trust a player by the skin, peaceful survivors now started fighting back against obvious bandits and strangers were more willing to attempt non-violent approaches, instead of shooting at anything that moved.

Maybe a mass murderers wouldn't decide to wear a sign to show their intent, but it's not uncommon for people up to no good to conceal their identity or for violent gangs to dress up to intimidate. Bandit skins strike a balance in a world, where you can change servers to a parallel universe, where your reputation as a mass murderer is completely erased. Humanity might not be the perfect solution, but it allows players to chose between attempting to be civilized even after society is gone or to prey on the weak. Instead of acting as gamers, humanity forces players to chose good or evil as human beings.

Humanity enhances the psychological aspect that makes DayZ something completely different and a real emotional experience, the removal of humanity trivializes the gameplay, where the only nuances is who shoots first.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Dallas

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Survivor vs Sheep

Got a thing for sheep do ya? Haha, jk.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Humanity and skins does not in anyway shape or form determine how I play my game. I will still be cautious, I may still shoot you for that back pack you have on, I may still attempt to befriend you so that we can team up and raid the NW Airfield. The game cannot predict my motives, and even if I am forced into a skin it still doesn't change my motives. I may be wearing a bandit skin but I'd give a transfusion to another player, I'd still shoot the bandit sniper harassing players at cherno, I mean the list just goes on and on and skins won't dictate how I play my game. If someone is shooting at me because of whatever skin I am wearing, I'll shoot back. One of us will die. I'll start over or otherwise continue playing the game I want to play.

[Rage VG 4033]

Got a thing for sheep do ya? Haha, jk.

You crafty bastard.

[teih 36]

You want a realistic zombie apocalypse simulator, but don't want morality to be a part of it?

Funny.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Teih

[dallas 5195]

I think morality and humanity are two different things.

To me morality is connected to the norms of society, in a post apocalyptic world, society is no more. While with humanity, you either remember to be human or forget and become an armed infected.

[Jamz 253]

Some DayZ players will go out of their way to kill other players.

Some DayZ players will go out of their way to avoid killing others.

Some DayZ players are new and have not chosen their path yet.

Whether you're a hero, bandit or survivor, everyone one dies in DayZ.

New players learn from interaction with other players. When bandit skins were removed from DayZ, new players learned they got shot on sight, bandit players continued to KOS everyone, friendlies simply disappeared into the wilderness. While bandit skins were absent, few people showed restraint, while most lost all inhibition. When the skins were reintroduced, some players had becomes heroes, others faced a six digit negative humanity score and realized they had become permanent bandits.

When the bandit skin where reinstated, new players learned that their actions had consequences, just like in real life. Before pulling the trigger on anyone in sight, they had make a decision, whether to shed their humanity and risk getting hunted themselves or risk their safety, for helping strangers. Although you could never blindly trust a player by the skin, peaceful survivors now started fighting back against obvious bandits and strangers were more willing to attempt non-violent approaches, instead of shooting at anything that moved.

Maybe a mass murderers wouldn't decide to wear a sign to show their intent, but it's not uncommon for people up to no good to conceal their identity or for violent gangs to dress up to intimidate. Bandit skins strike a balance in a world, where you can change servers to a parallel universe, where your reputation as a mass murderer is completely erased. Humanity might not be the perfect solution, but it allows players to chose between attempting to be civilized even after society is gone or to prey on the weak. Instead of acting as gamers, humanity forces players to chose good or evil as human beings.

Humanity enhances the psychological aspect that makes DayZ something completely different and a real emotional experience, the removal of humanity trivializes the gameplay, where the only nuances is who shoots first.

Exactly right. Its not a perfect system by a long shot and I'd like to see it changed, but something which gives people in game consequences and makes them think before pulling the trigger is what is needed. Without consequences, the easiest way to play the game is to kill every other player you encounter, why not? You can eliminate a possible threat and help yourself to their stuff by clicking a button but This is not the way normal humans would behave in real life. Because it isn't real.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

When I pulled that trigger I've already decided what I want to do, I don't do it because I think I'm going to turn into a towel-wearing skin.

The consequence of the game is this...

I pulled the trigger, that person is dead. The end. I just ended someones game.

I didn't pull the trigger, that person is alive. The end. They go on to play.

[teih 36]

'm a serial killer and my victims not guess that just by my outfit

Being a serial killer could've been an interesting aspect of the game if done right, but due to the current build you will just appear like yet another "douchebag" running around, pretending to play Battlefield.

This is, in my opinion, the problem with the game. Without any clear distinctions between groups, players just go within the same category: a personality grey zone where everyone are killing everyone out of either paranoia, or boredom.

There are no bandits, no survivors, no nothing. It's a bloody mess.

[teih 36]

I think morality and humanity are two different things.

To me morality is connected to the norms of society, in a post apocalyptic world, society is no more. While with humanity, you either remember to be human or forget and become an armed infected.

Do you honestly think that within months after the disaster, everyone will just lose their sense of morality?

Not to mention that humans are pack animals. We don't just forget our humanity and transform into some nutjob who goes about killing every soul he sees.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Teih

[Bludy 324]

nice tag for the post..your point is good, because i remember that rocket was not for the skin thing too..let's see what's happen with the SA

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Keep skins in, take them out. I don't care. It's not a game changer for me as it seems to be for you guys. I don't need any visual indicators to determine the status of another player, simple as that. You guys can try to say it "simulates" humanity, where it really doesn't but it's just your way of needing an indicator. Probably because you've been KoS so many times.

[teih 36]

it's just your way of needing an indicator. Probably because you've been KoS so many times.

What utter nonsense.

[Slyguy65 499]

Keep skins in, take them out. I don't care. It's not a game changer for me as it seems to be for you guys. I don't need any visual indicators to determine the status of another player, simple as that. You guys can try to say it "simulates" humanity, where it really doesn't but it's just your way of needing an indicator. Probably because you've been KoS so many times.

So what you KoS if so STFU of course it doesn't affect you it would be like asking a psychopath which person should live their mom or dad...they don't give a fuck so of course they don't care.

I highly doubt ANYBODY in this topic who has played since may/april and is not a bandit would like the no skins idea.

The only people for no skins are fucking KoS douche bags and trolls.

To not have a visual notifier or any kind of hint as to what kind of person you just met is then that is just unrealistic...not everyone is a perfect master of disguise who can play off killing 15 people with a hatchet and just clean up and look normal...especially in an apocalypse he would be a bloody looking axe murderer.

If your a human hunter, who doesn't like to get spotted you won't wear the same close as your prey you will blend in so as to not get spotted.

If your looking to help people you will make your self noticeable. By wearing bright colors or symbols (medics would wear a big ass cross duh, hero's would dress up like some kind of mad max police officer)

We all wouldn't just look like fucking clones....so enough of this idiotic nonsense about no skins allowed bullshit.

If you can legit argue that logic then go ahead but i expect nothing much more than ignorant hate/opposition or trolling.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Slyguy65

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

I remember the first time I was killed by a player. I was crawling into a hanger at NW Airfield, didn't even get inside when I got the "You're dead."Screen. Sniped. I was upset, so much time invested. I wasn't being hostile, I didn't even get the opportunity to say hello!

I remember coming onto the forums and bitching, and looking back that is exactly what I was doing. Though I realized that it is the beauty of this game to allow you to do WHATEVER you want.

If you are worried about humanity and morality, you don't need a game to simulate that for you. Your own actions chooses that for you. You want to be good? Do good things. You want to be bad? Do the opposite of being good.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Dreygar

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Slyguy would be a perfect example of someone who has been KoS plenty of times, and is now bitching about it and its need for indicators.

I think somewhere in this thread I explained I am not someone who KoS. Funny thing is that I honestly don't think skins will be making it into the SA though so you guys can bitch all you want and I'll entertain it for the meantime.

[Jamz 253]

When I pulled that trigger I've already decided what I want to do, I don't do it because I think I'm going to turn into a towel-wearing skin.

The consequence of the game is this...

I pulled the trigger, that person is dead. The end. I just ended someones game.

I didn't pull the trigger, that person is alive. The end. They go on to play.

The skins don't stop people from shooting one another, or I'd imagine have an effect on the majority of players. Like you say, most often the decision has been made already so it doesn't matter. However in some cases they might stop accidental or unnecessary killings, maybe even leading to those stories which make Dayz stand out amongst multiplayer experiences. In the end, everyone wants a version of Dayz which suits them most and few get that. I certainly won't stop playing if they remove the skins and I don't think there will be a big influx of players if they replace the present system with a better way. Its just a detail and one obviously not eveyone will see eye to eye over. I'm looking forward to whatever the SA brings.