Crash course on the 1.7.3 Combat System (by the person who wrote it)

[venthos 605]

There seems to be some mass confusion on exactly how this feature works (or rather, will work) in 1.7.3. Allow me to clarify.

1.7.3 Combat System

The system was that adopted into 1.7.3 seems to be an older revision of my DayZ Redux combat system. Therefore those of you familiar with DayZ Redux will notice that the blinking G17 gun icon is not currently present. The only indicator seems to be the "Not in Combat" / "In Combat: xx seconds" debug hint. I need to at least speak with Alexander, the artist who created that for me, before the gun icon is included (the entire combat system, and all redux code, was committed to 1.7.3 without my prior knowledge. So I had no opportunity to consider this before 1.7.3 patch notes went out and a release candidate formed). Please note that all such issues with 1.7.3 and DayZ Redux have been sorted with R4Z0R49 early yesterday afternoon and credit will be given to me/Alexander/Redux where appropriate. I have no issues with what's going on as a result of how it's being handled now.

"COMBAT" MEANS...

• Your character starts a 30 second timer when entering combat to indicate your "in combat" status
  
• The timer is shown in the same location as the Debug Window.
  
• The "Abort" option is disabled while this is active
  
• ALT-F4 is redirected to simply pull up a status window vs actually close out the game
  
• Each instantiation of being "in combat" resets the timer to 30. In other words, it doesn't "stack". You'll never have a timer start from a duration more than 30 seconds.
  

YOU WILL GO INTO COMBAT WHEN...

• You fire a weapon or throw an object
  
• Any player fires a weapon or throws an object within 70m of you (this way most "squads" will all go into combat if one fires)
  
• A bullet or object impacts within 50m of you
  

When I say "object", I mean just that. Throwing tin tans, flares, chem lights, etc. all put you and others into combat in accordance with the above rules.

IF YOU DISCONNECT FOR ANY REASON WHILE IN COMBAT...

• A server wide chat message will be shown to everyone in game to the effect of: (COMBAT LOG) VENTHOS
  
• A message will be clearly written into the sever's .RPT log indicating that you combat logged for the admin's later review.
  
• YOU WILL NOT BE KILLED (This only happens on DayZ Redux servers)
  

THIS MEANS...

• Administrators will be able to discern the circumstances of your disconnect via the proceeding lines to your combat log in the .RPT log (BattlEye kick, etc) and be able to make a judgment call on what to do. Still, it is impossible to discern an ALT + F4/close process from your internet connection just dying. Reacting to combat logs will require care and consideration on the part of server admins.
  

PRE-EMPTIVE COMPLAINT TACKLING...

This is me addressing the complaints as if they were directed to DayZ Redux (my mod). My individual stances stand for nothing in terms of DayZ Mod official. I am just explaining why the combat system was created the way it was. The behaviors could and very well may be modified in 1.7.3 or a later patch by the collective decisions of everyone involved in the community updates to DayZ.

[Complaint] Why only punish the victim of the attack?

[Response] It "punishes" both the attacker and the victim. Remember, given how the system works, both the attacker and the victim will enter into combat at virtually the same time and therefore have the same combat timer. Remember how terrible snipers would often log when someone returned fire at them? They can no longer do that. This system protects both the attacker and the victim from each other combat logging. You are now encouraged to actually fight it out instead of combat logging.

[Complaint] But throwing flares is totally non-combative!

[Response] Perhaps a better name would've been the "Combat & Action System". The goal is to prevent anyone who is actively doing something from logging out on a pursuing player AND from a pursuing player from logging out when it looks like they no longer have the upper hand.

[Complaint] But someone can just keep me logged in by firing at a building I'm in!

[Response] Absolutely. This is intended. Why? Because it comes at risk to the attacker. They have to expend bullets and reveal their position/potentially aggro zombies. This gives you the upper hand in most situations by allowing you to know exactly where they are and they don't know for sure where you are. They also draw attention to themselves from other survivors. If they're willing to accept those risk/expenses, why shouldn't they be allowed to stop someone from combat logging on them like a coward?

[Complaint] But killing people for combat logging is too harsh!

[Response] As has been stated ad nauseam, the original preview 1.7.3 notes are INCORRECT. The "kill" portion of this code is not being implemented. The only punishment is a server-wide broadcast that you combat logged (so everyone knows about your behavior) and logging it in the server .RPT log for the admins to review. In terms of DayZ Redux, the kill punishment has been extremely effective. I would only ever agree with it in a situation like DayZ Redux where it's a private hive and the server owner(s) can assess the combat logs and on a per-case basis restore anyone who received an unfortunate combat log due to something like max ping/signature check timeout/etc. In a public DayZ scenario, it really doesn't make sense -- hence why it's not being implemented that way.

---

Any other questions? Let me know. There just seems to be so much misinformation and panic around this feature (mainly stemming from the changelog unfortunately mentioning the "Kill on combat log", which isn't being implemented) and hopefully this thread clarifies a lot of it.

And with that, I'll name drop my mod of DayZ called DayZ Redux, which the upcoming DayZ 1.7.3 uses a decent amount of code from (such as the combat system). There's also a list of what DayZ Redux changes from vanilla DayZ.

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

Hey Venthos thank you! Both for the code and explanation. Think I may c heck out redux sounds like my kide of place! Beans my good man!

[Leadon77 94]

Thanks for the explanation but this means if me and my friends are playing and I shoot a pig but they disconnect within 30 seconds that they will be announced as combat loggers. Talk about a great griefing tool. Oh you wanna log out ya go ahead (fires pistol) oh wait haha you just combat logged.... Wish there was a better way....

[fatalwaffles 20]

Thank you for the explanation, Venthos!

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

Thanks for the explanation but this means if me and my friends are playing and I shoot a pig but they disconnect within 30 seconds that they will be announced as combat loggers. Talk about a great griefing tool. Oh you wanna log out ya go ahead (fires pistol) oh wait haha you just combat logged.... Wish there was a better way....

There is, if they do that... Plant a piece of lead into their cranium!

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Thanks for the explanation but this means if me and my friends are playing and I shoot a pig but they disconnect within 30 seconds that they will be announced as combat loggers. Talk about a great griefing tool. Oh you wanna log out ya go ahead (fires pistol) oh wait haha you just combat logged.... Wish there was a better way....

Or just don't hang around with douche-bags.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

Your code works in your controlled environment (as much everything of DayZ works), but the REAL WORLD is completely different and this mod wouldn't works as expected, especially because the massive presence of cheaters.

What you're giving here is another feature to troll, and you're going to punish the legit users, forcing more players to cheat because it will be only way to not die by another cheater!

I fully understand your good intentions, but i'm not sure if you're naive or what. I'm "whining" today because if this hits the patch, then we may have to wait who knows how long, to have it removed after everyone will finally figure that a "perfect world" doesn't exist.

I'm saying this being a FULL PVP (by months already) user, one of those heavily affected by the combat logger (everyday i loose tenth kills because of those cowards), but i prefer to lose kills than not having the possibility of IMMEDIATLY QUIT after the first fooker is shooting those satchels all around me, or because a script kid teleported all of us and have shot a single bullets awaiting for the massacre.

Someone have said that a game cannot be designed around the cheaters, it would be true if there's a good plan to fight the cheaters, but at the moment there's NONE, and probably there will never be one for the mod, so you CANNOT ignore the problem, you're fooling yourself.

[Leadon77 94]

There is, if they do that... Plant a piece of lead into their cranium!

ya that's an effective cure! I realize the need for this but it's broadness is what scares me...so if I throw a can in cherno at a building I know someone is in they can't log out (without consequences) So basically you could just run around and prevent anyone from logging out bu throwing chemlights at the NWAF or anywhere else. Or a hacker can do the same thing and lock a server by making it rain chemlights....see where I'm going with this?

[duggedank 28]

I'm very happy to hear that you sorted this out. It saddens me a great deal when these kind of "IP theft" discussion go out of hand instead of people just talking it over and coming to an agreement, have seen it happen too many times in the modding world. Really talented people have been lost because of it.

So I am happy that you all stick with it! Thank you :)

Sooooo, when is the chloroform coming to "official" DayZmod? ...................... ;)

Edited October 30, 2012 by DuggeDank

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

ya that's an effective cure! I realize the need for this but it's broadness is what scares me...so if I throw a can in cherno at a building I know someone is in they can't log out (without consequences) So basically you could just run around and prevent anyone from logging out bu throwing chemlights at the NWAF or anywhere else. Or a hacker can do the same thing and lock a server by making it rain chemlights....see where I'm going with this?

As soon this "brilliant" idea will hit the users, the forum will be flooded of complaints and they will remove it. The problem is that we may need to wait weeks to see another patch. I hope the alternate hives will wait some days before deciding to upgrade. Sadly the map i play more (Namalsk) uses the original DayZ as base.

[venthos 605]

Thanks for the explanation but this means if me and my friends are playing and I shoot a pig but they disconnect within 30 seconds that they will be announced as combat loggers. Talk about a great griefing tool. Oh you wanna log out ya go ahead (fires pistol) oh wait haha you just combat logged.... Wish there was a better way....

Unless your friends habitually logout by force closing their process, they'd be unable to "Abort" or even "ALT-F4" while in combat. You'd have to be an amazingly lucky person to time the shot while they have the "Really logout?" prompt up and just before they hit the final confirmation. In such a rare case, I guess you're right though.

*words*

So far I've only read that you claim it won't work effectively, but you haven't posed any reasoned arguments as to why you feel this way. Care to elaborate? I'm all for adapting the system. The system has been in place for a month on two servers that bounce off the 40/40 cap during primetime hours (I need to get more servers up) on my DayZ Redux mod and there have only been a small isolated few cases of unwarranted combat logs. This is coming from where the kill effect IS in use. I'd have to side with 30 days of historical data on two max population servers versus theoretical statements with no reasoned arguments ;P I don't claim the mechanic is perfect (in all honesty it can't be as long as ARMA2 scripting cannot discern why someone disconnected). But, it's pretty darn effective.

[wolfstriked 143]

Venthos,brilliant post!! One thing I think would work for the standalone and might really deter alt-F4 behavior without killing the player.Let players combat log and just register this on the main hive.5 combat logs and the player gets a mark on their name.Then give server owners an option to allow players who combat log or instantly lock them out.This way players will start seeing banned upon log in and hopefully stop this ridiculous behavior.

[Timberwolf (DayZ) 118]

ya that's an effective cure! I realize the need for this but it's broadness is what scares me...so if I throw a can in cherno at a building I know someone is in they can't log out (without consequences) So basically you could just run around and prevent anyone from logging out bu throwing chemlights at the NWAF or anywhere else. Or a hacker can do the same thing and lock a server by making it rain chemlights....see where I'm going with this?

It only works for a few seconds. It's not going to be an issue.

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

Well if you log out in a populated area... Maybe that is your issue. It is simple to just run off into the forest before you need to log. Sure people will try and abuse this.(that is what makes these type games interesting) But if like anything in dayz, you plan ahead & you will not have this problem.

As for walker do you ever not complain about the cheating and how cheating is unstoppable, yet everything suggested/tried you find fault with! Cheating happens deal with it man, if it bugs you that badly maybe go single player... Or does your computer cheat also?

[venthos 605]

ya that's an effective cure! I realize the need for this but it's broadness is what scares me...so if I throw a can in cherno at a building I know someone is in they can't log out (without consequences) So basically you could just run around and prevent anyone from logging out bu throwing chemlights at the NWAF or anywhere else. Or a hacker can do the same thing and lock a server by making it rain chemlights....see where I'm going with this?

If you have an inventory full of flares and are willing to animation lock yourself to throw them all at great risk to yourself (vulnerable to other players), then I think you've well earned the ability to keep someone logged on. Since the only punishment enforced is aesthetic (server announcement/log data) in that hacker situation, I would be more frightened by a server admin that couldn't process logic and reason enough to understand when such a situation is occurring and therefore not react negatively to their player base as a result. An inexperienced admin frightens me way more than a hacker in that circumstance, since the only threat in your combat log scenario is the retaliation of the admin -- not the hacker.

EDIT: Let me restate what I mentioned in my original post, that the above is my OPINION and not representative of what will happen with official DayZ. The DayZ Community team could very well disagree and decide to remove things like flares/etc. from causing combat. I am responding to all of these questions with my OPINIONs. Do not get angry and take it as "therefore this is how official DayZ will always be". That would simply be untrue.

I'm very happy to hear that you sorted this out. It saddens me a great deal when these kind of "IP theft" discussion go out of hand instead of people just talking it over and coming to an agreement, have seen it happen too many times in the modding world. Really talented people have been lost because of it.

So I am happy that you all stick with it! Thank you :)

Sooooo, when is the chloroform coming to "official" DayZmod? ...................... ;)

Since I'm now involved with the community dev team for this next patch go around after 1.7.3, I'll be able to lend a direct contribution going forward. But, I wouldn't really expect (at least at first) droves of new content. There's a lot to address as it stands with existing content, and new content for DayZ official needs to be approached methodically. Having everyone involved dropping every new feature they think is neat into the mix would be a mess in my opinion. If official DayZ wants chloroform, I think that's neat, but making any promises would be preemptive of me. I'll do what I can to help DayZ official, but my primary focus will still be DayZ Redux since a lot of the core changes in DayZ Redux would never be tolerated in official DayZ (loot changes, spawn changes, etc.). DayZ Redux will still be unique regardless how much of its bug fixes get absorbed into official DayZ ;)

Edited October 30, 2012 by Venthos

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

So far I've only read that you claim it won't work effectively...

Do you really want me to post one of the dozen of possibility that a troll now will have with this feature on? Please tell me you have enough fantasy.. then apply the same fantasy to a cheater and imagine how he can literally force the whole server to not quit.

[venthos 605]

Do you really want me to post one of the dozen of possibility that a troll now will have with this feature on? Please tell me you have enough fantasy.. then apply the same fantasy to a cheater and imagine how he can literally force the whole server to not quit.

Yes, oddly enough I would like you to stop speaking in hyperbole and actually present your evidence. There's been bugs I've missed in DayZ Redux that my community has let me know about. You seem to think I have some omniscient power. This is a "Community Effort". Why are you trying to prevent yourself, a community member, from being involved in a community effort? This makes me sad if this is the type of input the DayZ community team can expect. "I'm not going to tell you if you don't know already".

Like I said, this combat system (WITH kill effect) has been in use for 30+ days on DayZ Redux with minimal frustration.

[thelonewarrior 886]

Just a quick question though, I love this new system but when I get 'no message recieved' will this kill me? Or does the logs somehow register this, sorry I know nothing about the logs.

I recieved 'no message recieved' while in combat sometimes, does this actually appear in the logs for my player or count as the same as aborting from the logs point of view?

Still it all sounds good, im just worried about the fact that hackers can now just kill people much easier as they cant abort, is there someway to have a damage detection on players and if they take more than 12000 damage and dont die it instantly kicks them?

Edited October 30, 2012 by Regulator Lone Warrior

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

@ WalkerDown - So far I see a great attempt at dealing with combat logging from Venthos and not much from you. If you're going to be so critical of an idea someone has worked exteremely hard to bring to this mod then you need to back it up with a better argument than you have done so far. As Venthos has said, this is a community effort, so either offer up a better suggestion, or at least offer some better reasoning than you have done so far.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[venthos 605]

Just a quick question though, I love this new system but when I get 'no message recieved' will this kill me? Or does the logs somehow register this, sorry I know nothing about the logs.

I recieved 'no message recieved' while in combat sometimes, does this actually appear in the logs for my player or count as the same as aborting from the logs point of view?

Still it all sounds good, im just worried about the fact that hackers can now just kill people much easier as they cant abort, is there someway to have a damage detection on players and if they take more than 12000 damage and dont die it instantly kicks them?

Getting the "no message received" prompt by itself doesn't count as a disconnect. If it continues to count upwards up until it actually DOES disconnect you, then yes, that would fall under a disconnect and therefore potential combat log.

Regarding the hacker situation, I tried mention it several times in the OP, but the "Kill" aspect is not being carried over into DayZ official. A hacker would have no further ability to "kill" you with the combat system than without it. I'm pretty sure a reasonable admin would go "Hmm, 30 people combat logged at once. I bet a hacker was there.". The bigger danger in that situation is a jerk/inexperienced admin who can't understand the logs -- not the hacker.

EDIT: The only real repercussion for combat logging with this new system is an admin manually banning you from their server after seeing the broadcast message or reviewing the logs. That, and other players on the server thinking you're a combat logger and treating you accordingly. Find a worthy server/admin and a lot of peoples' concerns should be alleviated.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Venthos

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

@ WalkerDown - So far I see a great attempt at dealing with combat logging from Venthos and not much from you. If you're going to be so critical of an idea someone has worked exteremely hard to bring to this mod then you need to back it up with a better argument than you have done so far.

The combat system should prevent only the ALT+F4 (timeouts) not the quits, it would drastically reduce the combat loggers (most of them are using scripts to kill the process, not the quit.. since the quit is already prevented by the shock system).

Also the charcater should NOT die instantly, but it should remain in game for 30 seconds, so if you just lost the connection you MAY have a chance to survive.

As Venthos has said, this is a community effort, so either offer up a better suggestion, or at least offer some better reasoning than you have done so far.

A community effort that is going to "infect" the already bad situation we're having now with the cheaters. When they adopt this fantasy solution in their private servers i'm ok with it, but when you try to share a so dangerous solution to the "official" mod, it's going to affect all of us.

[Spandex 5]

Sounds like a pretty clever and effective system to me. Good effort.

[venthos 605]

Also the charcater should NOT die instantly, but it should remain in game for 30 seconds, so if you just lost the connection you MAY have a chance to survive.

You've shown me your cards here in that you didn't actually read my original post, in which in two separate sections of the post I explicitly state with bold, underlined, red text, that the "kill" effect is not going into DayZ Official. I'm not sure how you expect me to take you seriously after that comment if you won't even read my thread.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

You've shown me your cards here in that you didn't actually read my original post, in which in two separate sections of the post I explicitly state with bold, underlined, red text, that the "kill" effect is not going into DayZ Official. I'm not sure how you expect me to take you seriously after that comment if you won't even read my thread.

Sorry with Dayz Official i tought u were talking about the game (not the mod).

I'm also reading the official changelog... and it says:

* [NEW] New Combat System If you fire a weapon, someone fires a weapon near you, or a bullet/object impacts near you, then you go into combat. During combat, "ABORT" is disabled. If you ALT-F4/close anyway, your character is considered "combat logged" and instantly killed and leaves a body.

so i'm not sure if i've to follow you or rocket, so before continuing you should arrange a sort of coordination.

[ratface2000@gmail.com 44]

Ive been playing on the redux servers for a while now and i think the system is great.

waiting 30 seconds to log out has not been a problem for me.