Not a care-bear thread, but asking for a solution

[Mister_Meatball 5]

Adding to that picking up fresh spawns in vehicles is a neat thing to do, don't keep them around long enough for them to shoot you and steal your ride but give them a ride to the town/city/unofficial deathmatch arena of their choice. I know this has been done to death but I still get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when a ghillie suited m107 toting badass gives me a ride in his (I'm not making this up) F***bus.

[Inception. 9443]

Jesus mother of Christ, I wish you would stop referring banditry to those who sit and snipe newspawns.

Bandits almost never KoS. They only kill, in fact, when the situation deems the act to be an absolute necessity.

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

I buy my gold direct. At present values, I have quadrupled my money and I see my investment reaping even greater returns with time. Glenn Beck is a hoot, but I don't "watch" my radio....I am busy typing to irreverent blasphemers like YOU!

Please refrain from insulting my undead overlord and non-savior. Or I shall smite thee heathen!

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

More and tougher zombies combined with less high end weapons ought to do it. I like the sounds of the new medical system and the weapon conditions. All of these will make deathmatching a waste of time, hopefully. Not that there's anything wrong with it. There's plenty of deathmatch games on the market and those are actually balanced.

Once the game becomes too difficult for the average Coddie the mindless shoot on sight behavior will taper down. Actual bandits will still exist and quite a few deathmatchers will likely leave the cities to join them which isn't a bad thing. Once they have to actually leave the coast to find gear worth using they might actually value their own lives a little more than they do in their respawn mini-game in Elektro. If it takes you days to find an AK in good working order, or to fix one up, then they might just reconsider their mindless blasting of newspawns.

It would be awesome if they use the flight mechanics of Take on Choppers. (wasn't sure if Rocket said this was in or not) This alone will make some players more valuable than others. You'll never know if the guy you betrayed and shot in the back ten minutes earlier could have actually flown the chopper you just found in the woods. Hopefully they take a much as possible from that game and make starting the thing much more difficult than pressing Q. Even checking it for damage (and hopefully booby traps) would require some in-game experience.

Another thing they could do is make vehicle repair require more and specialized tools. These tools could require pack space as well as accessory (whatever it's called) space. Repairing a tire would require as little as a wrench or tire iron (and perhaps a jack?) but swapping motors or even diagnosing an electrical problem would require different tools. If we can't carry all these tools AND parts AND ammo, food, etc then we may just need a buddy or two just to be able to fix a car. Imagine the standard toolbox taking up four to six accessory slots and you might see what kind of judgement calls you'd have to make when looting. What if the tire for the Ural took up 8 slots of the main inventory and slowed you down? You'd need some buddies if you actually want to get that beast rolling.

If we were given actual safe stash spots, other than easily spotted tents, and extremely rare items and tools were added to the game then perhaps trading might actually become meaningful.

Right now, our avatars are generic cookie cutter affairs and no one is actually attached to them. People get more attached to the gear than anything. This is why people run all the way back to their dead bodies and why we hear about people unwilling to die even though they're stuck in the woods with a broken leg. Personalizing the character models would add some value to some people.

Anyway, for all we know the standalone already has quite a few systems in place. The medical system being one, the zombie and loot rewrites being others. Hopefully the changes Rocket has already mentioned will impact playstyles across the board. When we get our hands on SA alpha we can really have honest discussions about this stuff. Though nothing will stop kill on sight behavior completely.

[sostronk 334]

The issue with this is there is a huge skill and experience gap between players. I play as a bandit and will kill anyone on site that I see. Some survivors pretty much single handedly suicide to me. Other survivors are extremely hard to kill. Bandits are on average easier to kill, because they are so eager to get easy kills that they will get into the worst position/situation possible and they are so accustomed to players not defending and handling themselves that they are accustomed to getting easy kills. If the skill gap closed and survivors learn to handle and defend themselves, KOS will be alot harder.

EDIT: Also just to point out, I think banditry is really important in this game atm. There is no loot degredation/deflation. Theres just a constant increase in gear if people just loot.

Edited October 2, 2012 by sostronk

[Hetstaine 10852]

This game is a perfect case study for psychologists, I would love to see a class dissect this game and a dedicated servers players and read the reports...THAT would be good reading methinks.

Class has been in for months..you are part of the reports.

[catface.jpg 75]

Jesus mother of Christ, I wish you would stop referring banditry to those who sit and snipe newspawns.

Bandits almost never KoS. They only kill, in fact, when the situation deems the act to be an absolute necessity.

Bandits KoS. They snipe. They kill freshspawns. They also don't.

The problem with people saying "hey, it's a sandbox - you play how you want and others play how they want" is that this relies on a logical fallacy that EVERYONE can get what they want. They can't. It's a sandbox, with multiple players in it. It's not multiple sandboxes with each player type grouping up to play something together.

So, the sandbox invariably gets reduced to whatever the lowest common denominator makes it.

This doesn't change much for bandits. If there are 30 people on a server, and all are bandits, they are all playing the game the way they wish. If 10 "friendlies" join, they are not taking the bandits' game away from them. They're not changing it at all. In fact, they're most likely to leave after getting shot a few times.

But if 30 people are on a server, agreeing to be friendly, and then even ONE bandit joins - the game is now changed. The friendlies no longer have their desired sandbox experience. All are forced to play deathmatch, by one.

That's why it's easy for bandits to be behind the idea of keeping things the way they are. It's not Day Z, or Rocket, or anything else that discourages cooperation in the current game model. It's the basic fact that just one murderer dictates the flow of the game for everyone. Even in a situation where friendlies outnumber bandits, the friendlies lose.

The best solution, in my opinion, is to divide the realms. Clearly, people play for different reasons. So there should be a PvP realm, and a PvE realm. In PvE: Friendly Fire disabled. No one can shoot another player. In PvP, no such restriction. No crossover allowed between the two, you basically have the option to play two public hive characters. So no foraging in PvE and then fighting in PvP with what you find. SEPARATE LIVES.

I think the reason why the loudest-mouthed bandits hate ideas like this is because simply having competitive deathmatch isn't enough for them. THey have to shoot someone who doesn't want to be shot at, or isn't even trying to shoot back. They don't want a challenge, they want to try and make someone else feel bad, or lose something. They want the hollow sense of "victory" that this gives them, along with the sorely needed ego boost.

But the more reasonable baseline bandits/PvPers are going to be like the player I quoted above. They want competition, challenge, and the thrill of having human opponents that can kill them or escape. The satisfaction that comes with being victorious in that setting, and the increase in self-esteem that comes with that (not to be confused with a hollow ego boost). They want sportsmanship and competition, without all the care-bear bullshit on the Survivor side that basically turns the game into a dull farming simulator. I get that. And I think they should have it. I don't always want that, sometimes I just want to putter around and shoot zombies and drive cars and *play* in the sandbox. And sometimes I like dull farming ;)

Edited October 2, 2012 by catface.jpg

[RogueOne 112]

I think the reason why the loudest-mouthed bandits hate ideas like this is because simply having competitive deathmatch isn't enough for them. THey have to shoot someone who doesn't want to be shot at, or isn't even trying to shoot back. They don't want a challenge, they want to try and make someone else feel bad, or lose something. They want the hollow sense of "victory" that this gives them, along with the sorely needed ego boost.

Anyone who shoots fresh spawns or otherwise helpless players is a coward. PERIOD. Not a bandit or a survivor. Just a coward.

IMO 90% of "Bandits" are cowards who shoot mostly spawns or anyone else that cannot defend themselves. I've met real bandits and they are tough to defeat the rest are not bandits just pretenders.

sostronk brought up a good point which I believe is very valid. The dynamic between skill levels is very lop-sided. I won't elaborate on it any more since he did a good job of summoning it up.

Edited October 2, 2012 by RogueOne

[jdz (DayZ) 238]

There is no solution! DayZ is all risk vs reward! Want good gear? Ok, find helicopter crashes, visit the barracks and kill people. Want to survive? You get a hatchet and hit the woods.

It is as simple as that

[pieflavor 38]

Anyone who shoots fresh spawns or otherwise helpless players is a coward. PERIOD. Not a bandit or a survivor. Just a coward.

IMO 90% of "Bandits" are cowards who shoot mostly spawns or anyone else that cannot defend themselves. I've met real bandits and they are tough to defeat the rest are not bandits just pretenders.

sostronk brought up a good point which I believe is very valid. The dynamic between skill levels is very lop-sided. I won't elaborate on it any more since he did a good job of summoning it up.

you didn't even respond to his point, in my eyes he's saying a single person can force the entire playerbase to play a style they are not willing to, if not, take historical note: reddit rescue force, 1 month ago, they set up a medical camp free of entrance on a server to treat injured people and help them with gear. One single dickhole pops in, shoots ONE SINGLE BULLET and everyone slaughtered each other until the entire camp was reduced to ruins and dust.

the 20 people receiving help and helping each other on that server were forced to untrust everyone around and fight for their own survival, you could it was each individual's fault for not having faith on those who were in the camp, but it doesn't work like that, and you know it.

You could also say they could have put more regulations to the entrance to the camp, removing all weapons on the patients and having a patrol or police force authority to keep order, hey, that sounds a lot like nowadays societies, just saying.

[tommes 331]

That's life. One asshole fucks it up for everybody.

[Skin69niks 72]

Class has been in for months..you are part of the reports.

Post the essays/reports!!!

[thelonewarrior 886]

The only reason its 90% kill on sight is because all the friendly players quit once they realise this or they go to kill on sight themselves.

If those people who want to be friendly hadnt left the mod, it would be far more balanced, but as it stands right now most friendlys have left :(

This makes me sad

[motopsycho92 6]

In my little over a month of playing the people I've encountered have resulted in about a 50/50 mixture of either trying to kill me or wanting to team up. I've hooked up with some great people and great groups and had lots of fun, and then been shot in the back while trying to help another survivor flee zombies. This is what I love about the PvP element of this game and hate at the same time. I try to play DayZ the same as if I was in the situation. If I came face to face with a real-live person in a post apocalyptic world, I couldn't murder them in cold blood. If I was threatened however, you better bet if I have a choice between them or me, I choose them to take the bullet. If more people played this way the game would be more fun. It's easy to take a .50 cal and snipe every person you see in a game and lots of people look at it as just that, a game...The game just becomes so much more fun in my opinion when you can immerse yourself in it. That's why when I see other survivors in game I usually just try to avoid contact or simply hide. It adds a level of intensity knowing that anyone you see could be your savior or your murderer...just as it would be in the real world. A smart person with a weapon is much more dangerous than a mindless zombie.

[bazbake 456]

In response to all of the apex predator, ultimate survivor bullshit.

Do you use a tent?

Yes?

Then get the fuck out of here with that Apex Predator shit.

The real heart of the issue is that bandits would have a 50/50 chance of losing everything and gaining everything in each encounter if we had actual permadeath. Survivors would have a 25% chance of losing everything and a 25% chance of gaining everything in each encounter if we had permadeath.

But we don't have permadeath. So bandits talk shit about survival of the fittest and "apex predators" when if they had actual permadeath, they would be at the bottom of the food chain most of the time instead of hitting low pop servers and building bandit camps full of spare guns and ammo just in case they die.

So don't shit in my shoebox and call it Godiva. Most bandits are munchkins with loot maps and drop calculations hoarding items on servers where no one is a threat, not hardcore badasses taking on all comers.

------------------------------------------------------

PS, there's a concept called evolutionary biological altruism that is also accounted for by genetics. In one example, a species of bacterium develops a mucus layer that allows it to float to the surface of water and get oxygen. By itself, it sits at energy equilibrium but will eventually sink into the water and die during an energy spare period or during reproduction. However, if multiple bacteria join their mucus together, then they float even when others among them are not getting enough energy to grow and reproduce.

A mutation appeared whereby a bacterium put all of its energy into reproducing to spread its genetic material. However, the irony is that if too many bacteria have this mutation, NO ONE PRODUCES THE MUCUS RAFT THEY FLOAT ON, so all of the bacteria die.

That's how evolution and altruism work within a social context. Bandits function because humans have evolved NOT to kill each other randomly. As soon as all of the bandits are killing each other openly and everyone is a bandit, then you have an even chance of surviving or dying. But if most people aren't bandits, bandits are basically the NO MUCUS bacteria thriving off of everyone else's good nature.

Edited October 2, 2012 by BazBake

[catface.jpg 75]

In response to all of the apex predator, ultimate survivor bullshit.

Do you use a tent?

Yes?

Then get the fuck out of here with that Apex Predator shit.

The real heart of the issue is that bandits would have a 50/50 chance of losing everything and gaining everything in each encounter if we had actual permadeath. Survivors would have a 25% chance of losing everything and a 25% chance of gaining everything in each encounter if we had permadeath.

But we don't have permadeath. So bandits talk shit about survival of the fittest and "apex predators" when if they had actual permadeath, they would be at the bottom of the food chain most of the time instead of hitting low pop servers and building bandit camps full of spare guns and ammo just in case they die.

So don't shit in my shoebox and call it Godiva. Most bandits are munchkins with loot maps and drop calculations hoarding items on servers where no one is a threat, not hardcore badasses taking on all comers.

You make a cat wish he could give beans twice.

[hawc 63]

What you would need to stop death matching and whining on the forum is ... Cod MW4

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

But if 30 people are on a server, agreeing to be friendly, and then even ONE bandit joins - the game is now changed. The friendlies no longer have their desired sandbox experience. All are forced to play deathmatch, by one.

That's why it's easy for bandits to be behind the idea of keeping things the way they are. It's not Day Z, or Rocket, or anything else that discourages cooperation in the current game model. It's the basic fact that just one murderer dictates the flow of the game for everyone. Even in a situation where friendlies outnumber bandits, the friendlies lose.

One deathmatcher doesn't force anyone to deathmatch. Neither does one bandit. His presence only requires the other players to pay attention. I'd be surprised if 30 guys can't kill one deathmatcher or simply avoid him. If the deathmatcher can't find anyone to deathmatch then he'll likely just leave.

PVE servers will die within a months time unless the zombies are ten times harder than what is planned for the standalone. (we don't even know what that is yet but they'll have to be much harder if you don't even have to worry about friendly fire..)

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

you didn't even respond to his point, in my eyes he's saying a single person can force the entire playerbase to play a style they are not willing to, if not, take historical note: reddit rescue force, 1 month ago, they set up a medical camp free of entrance on a server to treat injured people and help them with gear. One single dickhole pops in, shoots ONE SINGLE BULLET and everyone slaughtered each other until the entire camp was reduced to ruins and dust.

the 20 people receiving help and helping each other on that server were forced to untrust everyone around and fight for their own survival, you could it was each individual's fault for not having faith on those who were in the camp, but it doesn't work like that, and you know it.

You could also say they could have put more regulations to the entrance to the camp, removing all weapons on the patients and having a patrol or police force authority to keep order, hey, that sounds a lot like nowadays societies, just saying.

That's just a stupid idea though. Yeah, it makes sense and even I want to setup a permanent base but bringing a bunch of unknown and heavily armed people into an enclosed space is just asking for trouble.. Anyone who thought that was good idea must have been trying hard to ignore all the evidence to the contrary. It's like smoking in an ocean of oil, not smart.

This is completely different from having 30 players on a server and one mindless deathmatcher looking around Elektro and not finding anyone.

[catface.jpg 75]

One deathmatcher doesn't force anyone to deathmatch. Neither does one bandit. His presence only requires the other players to pay attention. I'd be surprised if 30 guys can't kill one deathmatcher or simply avoid him. If the deathmatcher can't find anyone to deathmatch then he'll likely just leave.

How exactly are they going to kill him without engaging in deathmatch? How will they avoid him without being wary of other players (which is not a guarantee)?

ONE murderer forces EVERYONE to play the murderer's game. Or, at least, everyone that murderer sees. Frankly, avoiding being murdered has never been tactical. Ever. You can sneak around on your belly for miles, it's not going to keep you from being killed. The only thing that keeps you from being killed is not being seen.

That's why I don't deathmatch, myself. THere's no tactic to it. All you do is stumble into someone. Or wait somewhere people go, so that you can shoot at them. It's more dumb luck than skill.

[Skin69niks 72]

@ BazBake....so altruism has governed societal progress? I think you need to stop playing with the bacteria my friend, your inability to discern reality from delusion is on full display!! Your figures regarding survivor/bandit mortality rates is laughable, one has only to look at the almost 10-1 survivor to bandit ratio coupled with the over to 4-1 murder to bandit kill figures to bear this out. Because a player chooses to use a tent makes him LESS of a predator?!?! Once again I believe the bacteria are damaging your mind my friend, it only allows me a nice warm and dry place to store all of the things that you used to own before I ended your weak, bitter and pathetic life. You know that's how you sound right...pathetic and bitter? When I read your post I laughed out loud...my secretary already knows I am crazy so it's ok Baz don't worry about me, but I thought to myself I bet this is a bitter little clown who never lettered in a sport, has never dominated at anything in his life and always cursed at the backs of guys like me when we left the party with the hottie on our jock dripping with anticipation. It's ok though Baz...you have almost a thousand posts so you're good at SOMETHING!! Tell you what, why don't we put our money where our mouths are shall we? Since I believe I can show you waaaaay better than I can tell you and you think I should "get the fuck out of here with that Apex Predator shit" let's have a go you and I. I am available any evening 7:30-12 CST and will go solo or bring a pack, whichever makes you more comfortable. I am fully geared on every map, you know since I am an Apex predator and all, that's how I roll. Soooo name the map and server and how do the kids say it now...COME AT ME BRO!!!!!! "I'm your huckleberry" seems much cooler to me, but whatevers clever Baz.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

@Skin69niks, the fact that you are arguing with BazBake and your use of the line "I'm your Huckleberry" makes me want to give you support, but the line about leaving the party with a hottie on your jock screams arrested development and internet lying. Anyone who feels the need to brag about shit like this online is one or both of the following, a liar and/or insecure (for adults only, teenagers say stupid shit all the time). I will not generalize either way about bandits because I have run across some excellent bandits and have run across some terrible bandits who were pathetic shots (once ran about 300 meters through a field unarmed and jacked a gun out of a guys backpack who was trying to shoot me after spawning, that is was one pathetic bandit). I judge bandits on what they do after missing the first easy shot where the person had no idea you were there, if you can not follow it up with consistent murders you are most likely terrible and have inflated your ego on easy sniping kills on stationary targets.

Who am I kidding you get my beans for using "I'm your Huckleberry" alone and talking shit to BazBake is just icing on the cake, ask him about third person some time. If his post was dripping with bitterness then your post was overflowing with feelings of inadequacy.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Zombie Jesus

[Skin69niks 72]

Anyone who shoots fresh spawns or otherwise helpless players is a coward. PERIOD. Not a bandit or a survivor. Just a coward.

IMO 90% of "Bandits" are cowards who shoot mostly spawns or anyone else that cannot defend themselves. I've met real bandits and they are tough to defeat the rest are not bandits just pretenders.

sostronk brought up a good point which I believe is very valid. The dynamic between skill levels is very lop-sided. I won't elaborate on it any more since he did a good job of summoning it up.

Rogue makes a good point here and I think this is what the OP was getting at, KOS "bandits" that shoot guys with just a flashlight are counterproductive to what those of us that LOVE this game want. I am a bandit, but I stalk snipers mostly, and engage in squad on squad ops. I would never kill a "freshy" there is no honor in it and I may dissuade a new player from getting to know how much fun this game really can be. That being said the value of KNOWING that there are squads solely devoted to curbing the population of well armed militant groups, adds a flavor of danger to the game to any who travel into the military zones seeking the high end weapons. Knowing that we will be there and we will be watching and at any moment the CRACK of a rifle may end your dream of having that M107 adds to the experience no? That danger makes the game FUN in my opinion and people that DON'T like the aspect of pvp can get into a locked server and play farmville all they LIKE!!!

[about40sheep 19]

on my 2nd day of playing after I just found sniper rifle (first weapon I had ever seen as well, no clue what I was doing), I was in a market and I hear all these guys shooting outside of it, I try to hide and realize that hiding is futile. so I get on my mic and say that I'm friendly, they tell me to come out and then promptly shoot me

learned right there to kill everyone I see that is a possible threat, that being nearly everyone I come across, probably only been 2-3 people that I didn't kill when I had an obvious advantage over them

[bazbake 456]

@ BazBake....so altruism has governed societal progress? I think you need to stop playing with the bacteria my friend, your inability to discern reality from delusion is on full display!! Your figures regarding survivor/bandit mortality rates is laughable, one has only to look at the almost 10-1 survivor to bandit ratio coupled with the over to 4-1 murder to bandit kill figures to bear this out. Because a player chooses to use a tent makes him LESS of a predator?!?! Once again I believe the bacteria are damaging your mind my friend, it only allows me a nice warm and dry place to store all of the things that you used to own before I ended your weak, bitter and pathetic life. You know that's how you sound right...pathetic and bitter? When I read your post I laughed out loud...my secretary already knows I am crazy so it's ok Baz don't worry about me, but I thought to myself I bet this is a bitter little clown who never lettered in a sport, has never dominated at anything in his life and always cursed at the backs of guys like me when we left the party with the hottie on our jock dripping with anticipation. It's ok though Baz...you have almost a thousand posts so you're good at SOMETHING!! Tell you what, why don't we put our money where our mouths are shall we? Since I believe I can show you waaaaay better than I can tell you and you think I should "get the fuck out of here with that Apex Predator shit" let's have a go you and I. I am available any evening 7:30-12 CST and will go solo or bring a pack, whichever makes you more comfortable. I am fully geared on every map, you know since I am an Apex predator and all, that's how I roll. Soooo name the map and server and how do the kids say it now...COME AT ME BRO!!!!!! "I'm your huckleberry" seems much cooler to me, but whatevers clever Baz.

I'm reposting this for posterity because one day you'll remember you wrote this and rush back to edit it. And it will still be here. Mocking you.