Dear rocket, f**k humanity. Focus on Morality.

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

"Trained killers" is a fancy term' date=' but most people who go to the military are not "killers". Studies show that 1 in 8 get PTSD. And that's out of more or less average, normal people. You'd get a different number if you looked at special operations forces, which tend to suffer extremely low amount of psychological casualties.

[/quote']

This is inaccurate. I refer you to this statistic from http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2007/03/war-list-oefoif-statistics.html

OEF/OIF troops who have/may acquire PTSD (according to the National Center on PTSD): 40%

And remember, we're talking about men and women who AREN'T indiscriminately killing others for pleasure or for food that is easily found elsewhere.

---

So that brings us to this thread. How can we enact consequences upon those who kill' date=' but only those who kill for fun? This is the problem. You could kill in self defense, or kill for survival needs as well... Clearly, most sane people would kill for these two reasons and not murder themselves from nightmares; they would be mentally stable afterwards.

The issue is how can the game tell the difference? There's really no way to incorporate a system that asks the player how they felt when they killed the guy.

[/quote']

I totally see your point, but I think there is a game mechanic that can work for this. In the thread about bandit heartbeats rocket mentions the difference between "bandits" and "superbandits" -- the latter, being those players whose Humanity is extremely low. The assumption is that a person who kills only occasionally for survival or self-defense would not reach this level, but a person who killed indiscriminately for pleasure would. I think that's probably a safe assumption that could work well with this proposed mechanic.

[tolk 7]

Why should I be punished for being harsh to other players?

I don't mean to sound like an asshole' date=' but a lot of you really miss the point here.

Your character is starving, and in the cold. You will happily go to lengths ingame to rectify this.

But anything else that impedes your ability to wantonly murder complete strangers is considered a gamebreaking impediment :huh:

killing somebody should be a big deal. it should be a threat to triggering zombies, it should be a threat to wasting ammo, a threat to alerting other bandits, a threat to your own characters mental state.

if you think you're going to survive the zombiepocalypse by shagging jack, joe and zeke, then good luck to you! some of us embrace the false hope of possiblities of factions, alliances, trying to re-establishing order, trade, and all of that.

that's what the future of the game is pegged on, not just DM.

a bit of psychological mindfuckery. not just 'shit, that guy is gonna kill me. may aswell alt-f4'

[/quote']

I agree, maybe the solution is to change existing game dynamics so that random murdering without reason is less easy. Make ammo scarcer, make zombies more alert to sounds (though not auto target style) add some element of danger to having to use deadly force. That way people will do it when they need to; for food, water, weapons etc. but avoid it when they don't.

You can then still choose to be a bandit and live solely by stealing from others, or you can be the honest man and only ever loot from houses, and anything in-between.

I think the main issue at the moment is that killing someone for no reason, not even for looting, is just too easy. There's no tension, drama, only camping in a spot waiting for a newbie to run by you.

[CrossShade 4]

I'm quite chuffed that mr rocket even read this given the sheer volume' date=' that's all i'd like to be able to contribute.

[/quote']

I dedicate half my day to reading this and other forums. I believe the project will only be successful if I remain connected directly to everyone else. Sometimes this is frustrating, for both you and for me. But I guess that is part of it.

You infinitely restore my faith in Dev's. I'm actually considering studying Game theory and programming after seeing what you have done. Either that or Politics, so I can finally assert my Commie Nazi agenda on this failed imprudent earth :P

Psycho's and sociopaths would have likely shot themselves? Sure.

Have you ever been in a psych ward? hint: I have.

They don't carry guns. They generally piss themselves a lot' date=' fuck anything they can, and OD a lot.

They won't be fighting the zombiepocalypse.

I play with a large group of friends. We have absolutely no moral issue killing anyone who's not on our team.

It's the zombie apocalypse and the faster all the others are dead, the faster we can start rebuilding the world to our liking.

That's the thing. The perspective is skewed from being behind the PC screen. Still means you need beanz right? Still need ammo? Social interraction is a huge part of being human. And coincidentally a part of the game that is lacking, and hard to encourage at the moment.

Is there really anything negative that could arise from getting people to work with eachother for a while? would form more friendships, TS clans, etc. Then standoffs, not beach camps.

I have a few friends I tried to get into this that refused to play until they were with me on TS being coddled like babies. (I think that's lame, but let's face it, gamers aren't used to it) And the longevity of DayZ involves getting people to get into it, not drowning them in elitist crap because they have no friends they play only FPS' with.

I was once friends with a Sociopath, they wouldn't kill themselves.

By the way some key things about Psychopaths.

Psychopaths have a lack of empathy and remorse, and have very shallow emotions.

Suicide threats rarely carried out.

Absence of "nervousness" or psychoneurotic manifestations

Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking

Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love.

Lack of remorse and shame

Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations

Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love.

Yes they would all suicide and not be the best survivors.

/sarcasm

[djh3315 0]

I really do not know how you would emulate PTSD ingame other than by making your character hear random gunshots and have psychotic episodes (loss of motorskills/vision?) once in awhile (which would certainly throw off some people). But honestly i dont think it is really a big deal right now, humanity is merely a number in a database at this point and im happy with it staying that way. We all know the system will change for it is far too basic a concept to be coupled with such a highly strategic survival realism game. I dont think we need to take it as far as PTSD though. Just find a way so that the lower level noobies look less appetizing to bandits. I am not a bandit personally (although i do enjoy hunting intelligent prey lol) but i have killed many just because i have run into someone in what i know is a HOT zone and i open fire first! In situations like that it is honestly shoot first, ask later. I started the game by trying to type everytime i saw someone and i think ONCE i was given the chance to type friendly before being shot in the face lol. After that if i dont see someone from a distance and walk around a corner to find someone, theyre getting shot first. I dont want to get punished for that! It is a survival instinct that i have picked up from so many idiots just pulling the trigger whenever they see a non-zed!

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

going back to psychopaths:

their behaviour is generally impulsive, irrational, driven by a god-complex and leads to an early death by others.

(sadly quite hard to emulate in virtual reality)

If we want to touch on sociopaths, I doubt they'd be doing any shooting at all actually. They'd be the fuckers in some bunker getting everyone else to do their bidding.

[tolk 7]

Being remorseless, having no shame etc. etc. wouldn't make you a good survivor. Human have naturally evolved to be survivors, and in our case the average is to cooperate and work together so that we can build resources to survive more easily.

If the opposite had been true then during our early evolution, when we were surrounded by many animals far more powerful and dangerous than ourselves with limited to no technology (somewhat analogous to DayZ), we would have all been psychopaths and human society would have turned out very differently. Instead we repeatedly find evidence that humans cooperated and worked together in groups and the ones that didn't... well they mostly died out of our gene pool.

[dallas 5195]

Morality is something you teach and preach.

Humanity is something you've got or not.

[miqueloz 33]

OEF/OIF troops who have/may acquire PTSD (according to the National Center on PTSD): 40%

Huh? "May" acquire? I may win the lottery too, that doesn't mean I will.

[Cyanide (DayZ) 0]

Like in Amnesia. Witnessing disturbing events drains your sanity.

[eroth 2]

Maybe we're just like Australia; An island full of convicts. I mean, why are we on the fucking shores to begin with? lol

We are already insane, so killing humans isn't a new thing I guess.

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

LOL..

Ironically if you've played on an Aussie server, we're the least douchiest players around.

Had some incredibly fun times (minus the crashes)

There may be something to learn from that. Never had game experiences like my first fortnight in dayz. Being helped by dudes, then helping them out and wandering around in the wilderness for a few hours.

Americans just shoot on sight. I thought it was just a stereotype but apparently not..

They're missing out on some awesome gameplay, and I feel sorry for the guys who get screwed over.

I humbly invite yankee carebears to visit aus servers. we're nice. we'll insult the shit out of you, but I happen to run around giving people free steak and stuff.

it's that sort of openness I like about dayz.

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

OEF/OIF troops who have/may acquire PTSD (according to the National Center on PTSD): 40%

Huh? "May" acquire? I may win the lottery too' date=' that doesn't mean I will.

[/quote']

Not all cases of PTSD that occur are actually diagnosed, due in large part to the stigma that's attached to mental and psychological illness. I'm assuming that's a statistical extrapolation of the overall, true rate of the condition.

[miqueloz 33]

OEF/OIF troops who have/may acquire PTSD (according to the National Center on PTSD): 40%

Huh? "May" acquire? I may win the lottery too' date=' that doesn't mean I will.

[/quote']

Not all cases of PTSD that occur are actually diagnosed, due in large part to the stigma that's attached to mental and psychological illness. I'm assuming that's a statistical extrapolation of the overall, true rate of the condition.

That doesn't make much sense, given the wording. "May acquire" means getting PTSD in the future, not cases that have happened but haven't been diagnosed. Getting pretty off-topic, though.

[Anemia (DayZ) 0]

You guys seem to forget the zombies. These characters have probably killed some of their relatives in horrific manners. I might be talking for only myself but I believe that bashing my mothers skull in even though she has zombiefied would haunt me more than some random survivor waving an effing gun.

If we wan't to get rid of the death matches (which seems like a good idea to me) then I think it should be done in another way. Some way that punishes that specific gamestyle rather than all bandits. For example, harder punishes for dying though that would be wierd for spawn camping.

Over all what I am trying to say is that i want a solution for this but I don't think this specific one is well "good enough".

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

btw, i think it's safe to assume everyone has PTSD after the WORLD HAS FUCKING ENDED AND EVERYONE YOU LOVE HAS TURNED INTO THE WALKING DEAD

all of our characters should be off their rockers.

mental stability should be some god-like pedestal we all aspire to.

[eroth 2]

LOL..

Ironically if you've played on an Aussie server' date=' we're the least douchiest players around.

Had some incredibly fun times (minus the crashes)

There may be something to learn from that. Never had game experiences like my first fortnight in dayz. Being helped by dudes, then helping them out and wandering around in the wilderness for a few hours.

Americans just shoot on sight. I thought it was just a stereotype but apparently not..

They're missing out on some awesome gameplay, and I feel sorry for the guys who get screwed over.

I humbly invite yankee carebears to visit aus servers. we're nice. we'll insult the shit out of you, but I happen to run around giving people free steak and stuff.

it's that sort of openness I like about dayz.

[/quote']

(Before I begin, none of this is in a tone. I'm laughing right now actually.)

Anyway, I was talking about when Australia was first colonized, it was mostly convicts that were sent there because of how harsh the conditions were.

And I know that "Americas shoot always" stereotype well. I try to not do that, and so far I've teamed up with 9 or so survivors total over the course of my playing, but there's always that one "friendly" guy you run into that you say "Team up or go our separate ways?", you decide to split up, and then 20 seconds later discover he's turned around and is following you with an ak sight on your head.

We are dicks to eachother, so we expect everyone to be a dick to us. It's like most things in America.

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

Americans just shoot on sight. I thought it was just a stereotype but apparently not..

Sadly' date=' no (and this from an American). There was a great Kids in the Hall sketch that describes this very well. Dave Foley's character is asked by someone if he's from America and he replies "No, I'm from Canada. It's like America, but without a gun."

I humbly invite yankee carebears to visit aus servers. we're nice. we'll insult the shit out of you, but I happen to run around giving people free steak and stuff.

Might have to take you up on that. Hopefully, low ping doesn't cause me to go on a murderous rampage... :)

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

LOL..

Ironically if you've played on an Aussie server' date=' we're the least douchiest players around.

Had some incredibly fun times (minus the crashes)

There may be something to learn from that. Never had game experiences like my first fortnight in dayz. Being helped by dudes, then helping them out and wandering around in the wilderness for a few hours.

Americans just shoot on sight. I thought it was just a stereotype but apparently not..

They're missing out on some awesome gameplay, and I feel sorry for the guys who get screwed over.

I humbly invite yankee carebears to visit aus servers. we're nice. we'll insult the shit out of you, but I happen to run around giving people free steak and stuff.

it's that sort of openness I like about dayz.

[/quote']

(Before I begin, none of this is in a tone. I'm laughing right now actually.)

Anyway, I was talking about when Australia was first colonized, it was mostly convicts that were sent there because of how harsh the conditions were.

And I know that "Americas shoot always" stereotype well. I try to not do that, and so far I've teamed up with 9 or so survivors total over the course of my playing, but there's always that one "friendly" guy you run into that you say "Team up or go our separate ways?", you decide to split up, and then 20 seconds later discover he's turned around and is following you with an ak sight on your head.

We are dicks to eachother, so we expect everyone to be a dick to us. It's like most things in America.

the pilgrims didn't exactly head to the USA because it was all green pastures.. well.. other than the pastures the native americans laid out for you.

but that's why we get along. yet hate eachother. similar beginnings :P

I wonder how much support I'd have if I went international in my movement..

dayz is one of the few games where I can just go "hey fuck it, what's up everyone? want some steaks?"

just need a few bro's to support me, and prove that some of the possibilities in this game don't have to be spoon fed to us by rocket but we can create for ourselves.

Want a hospital? start a med team with some friends.

Want a trade station? start a caravan with some friends?

Want a barbecue, direct chat, katy perry, titty-fest and steaks party? go for it.

Stary-Sobor Tranny side-show w/ mountain dew? go for it!

strange as it is, this is the direction the game should aim for. because this is the sort of shit that would happen in the z-pocalypse.

when the shooting gets boring, we have an entire facet of other human desires that need fulfilled.

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

That doesn't make much sense' date=' given the wording. "May acquire" means getting PTSD in the future, not cases that have happened but haven't been diagnosed.

[/quote']

PTSD doesn't always develop immediately and some soldiers are still involved in ongoing operations and will likely develop it based on experiences that haven't yet occurred.

[#BASEDGOD 27]

That doesn't make much sense' date=' given the wording. "May acquire" means getting PTSD in the future, not cases that have happened but haven't been diagnosed.

[/quote']

PTSD doesn't always develop immediately and some soldiers are still involved in ongoing operations and will likely develop it based on experiences that haven't yet occurred.

Also, PTSD doesn't manifest itself in the same ways in every case. Some people have more severe cases than others, some just have lingering effects like difficulty sleeping or nightmares. Others have it worse.

Not everyone gets it.

Some people can handle dealing with a shitty world. Some can't.

[miqueloz 33]

That doesn't make much sense' date=' given the wording. "May acquire" means getting PTSD in the future, not cases that have happened but haven't been diagnosed.

[/quote']

PTSD doesn't always develop immediately and some soldiers are still involved in ongoing operations and will likely develop it based on experiences that haven't yet occurred.

And at that point it's pure speculation and has no place in the discussion.

[Hawk24 94]

Like in Amnesia. Witnessing disturbing events drains your sanity.

The sanity system in Amnesia barely works in the confined enviroment of Amnesia itself

It's a mechanic that forces you to get to a light source as quickly as possible, and "disturbing events" are either scripted or when you look at your hunter for too long

Also it directs the hunter into your direction when getting close to insane

Once you got the hang of sanity in Amnesia it's barely an issue....

DayZ is an open world game, putting a sanity system in it would work cheesy at best, but would more likely just fail and be another artificial annoyance for players that decide to kill than to co-operate with strangers

Can I please get my bandit skin back? Atleast it looked badass and had some sort of camouflage compared to the baseball cap wearing tourrist that the PMC skin is

[Jono (DayZ) 1]

I think the best way to implement some kind of Humality would be to make being "a dick" have consequences.

I'm not too sure how loot spawning works in-game, but I believe it to be that it'll not respawn if you're sat on the spawn point, but if you run away a bit and come back it'll be there.

I suppose what you could do is make the run away radius a bit bigger, so you can't just sit in a building forever, never running out of supplies/ammo (is that possible? - I've only played for a couple of days).

A lone bandit making a few peoples' lives hell shouldn't be too hard to overpower, if you're cunning about it. I don't think there should be a penalty for being a bandit and murdering everyone you can - sooner or later you'll probably make a mistake, be forced to fire off a few rounds when there are zombies about.

Of course, it would be nice if there were more zombies so you were encouraged to not go it alone.... I dunno - I've not yet given anyone the chance to kill me yet; I'm too good at dying all by myself.

[miqueloz 33]

Can I please get my bandit skin back? Atleast it looked badass and had some sort of camouflage compared to the baseball cap wearing tourrist that the PMC skin is

Haha, yea, I actually liked the bandit skin.

[eroth 2]

the pilgrims didn't exactly head to the USA because it was all green pastures.. well.. other than the pastures the native americans laid out for you.

but that's why we get along. yet hate eachother. similar beginnings :P

I wonder how much support I'd have if I went international in my movement..

dayz is one of the few games where I can just go "hey fuck it' date=' what's up everyone? want some steaks?"

just need a few bro's to support me, and prove that some of the possibilities in this game don't have to be spoon fed to us by rocket but we can create for ourselves.

Want a hospital? start a med team with some friends.

Want a trade station? start a caravan with some friends?

Want a barbecue, direct chat, katy perry, titty-fest and steaks party? go for it.

Stary-Sobor Tranny side-show w/ mountain dew? go for it!

strange as it is, this is the direction the game should aim for. because this is the sort of shit that would happen in the z-pocalypse.

when the shooting gets boring, we have an entire facet of other human desires that need fulfilled.

[/quote']

I'm still waiting for underwater basket weaving to come back into style.