Question to Rocket: Gun nerfing

[tommes 331]

Will guns be unnerfed in the mod anytime soon? And how about the standalone?

Handguns should be as deadly as in reality again! And there should be a bigass handgun like the Desert Eagle or a Magnum Revolver.

[ZomboWTF 527]

yeah, its really hillarious that you can put a whole mag of G17 bullets into someone without them dieing, yet .50 calibers insta kill when shooting your hand or foot, the damage model is totally f'ed up right now

[Inception. 9443]

A realistic damage engine is what I would like.

[kranky@dir.bg 27]

Yes - I agree about pistols. It was funny when I met a guy and we both had Makarov with obviously just 1 round available. We shoot each other literally from a 2m distance and we both survived. We gave a good laugh and departed our was.

However, I would rather suggest nerfing further snipers. 8000 damage is way too much for the nature of the game and the maps. Basically there is very little need of any other weapon once you have managed to put a hand on DMR or beyond. I am even not discussing AS50 which is capable of taking down a helicopter with just few shots. The only advantage for the sniper should be the optics and range. I would just cap sniper damage to 4500 or so.

And please do not cry - "I am sniper specialized and bla bla" LOLOLOL - what? Camping the hill and shooting bambies or anyone with no sniper is ridicules "skill" or "specialization". On top of everything else - in ArmA it is much easier to take down players with sniper than in any other game I know. Just the characters are moving way too slow (which TBH corresponds to the reality).

So think about it - this is DayZ - whoever likes to snipe all day can go playing ArmA or BF3 or whatever FPS.

[jdz (DayZ) 238]

What? Sniping is a skill and a 7.62 round would kill most people in 1 shot.

Do you play on noob servers with names and crosshairs or something? Because they completely ruin the weapon balance.

Ever tried to range find using the mildots? That's a skill, especially when you have to do it on a moving target.

I'm not talking about noob sniping either, proper squad vs squad fire fights

[Serious Stan 202]

Gun wounds are fatal!

Dont nerf anything just make the handguns more powerful. G17 is worst handgun.

[ZomboWTF 527]

there was a thread about removing most of the high-tech and high-range rifles i really liked, i would miss the m107 and m24, but removing the dmr and as50 along with SD weapons would be awesome, a lot more close combat and less high range weapons would make the game way better and fights more personal

[kranky@dir.bg 27]

there was a thread about removing most of the high-tech and high-range rifles i really liked, i would miss the m107 and m24, but removing the dmr and as50 along with SD weapons would be awesome, a lot more close combat and less high range weapons would make the game way better and fights more personal

Exactly.

[sostronk 334]

Personally Im fine with pistols. I only use them on zeds to save ammo on my primary. Fairly sure they were nerfed because of the Cherno Deathmatch game that this apparent sandbox turned into. Going by this rationale, I think he just needs to nerf the hatchet.

EDIT:

there was a thread about removing most of the high-tech and high-range rifles i really liked, i would miss the m107 and m24, but removing the dmr and as50 along with SD weapons would be awesome, a lot more close combat and less high range weapons would make the game way better and fights more personal

I think theres other ways around it. Some of the servers I play on, it is really hard to see beyond about 500-600metres because of the heavy fog on the map. Considering some of the assualt rifles are effective up to 800 metres (AKM, M16acog) Ive found alot less sniping on these servers. It still happens, but it doesn't take long to close the game because your not getting hit from 1600m away.

Edited September 26, 2012 by sostronk

[christopherwright_75@hotmail.co.uk 109]

Its not the damage needs buffing its the player health needs lowering..... try ARMA see how much faster a pistol drops you, in this mod the player health has been buffed way higher than intended for the weapon damages

[Xuse 92]

Really? I always found the g17 to be the best handgun. Racked up a few kills with it.... I only ditch it for M9SD for quiet Z kills

[ZomboWTF 527]

it just makes way too much difference what caliber you are shot at with, a dmr and m107 and any other rifle in the sniping category but the .50s two shot you, and a AK74 needs SIX shots to the body to drop you, this is hillarious

9mm bullets need 15 shots for a kill, a revolver cant kill a human with a full mag, neither can the m1911

the only thing to drop someone fast is a headshot these days... thats why the revolver and m1911 are the worst handguns at the moment, either totally unprecise or not able to spam bullets with, the makarov is better^^

g17 is the best handgun atm seriously

and the higher calibre weapons should either all 2 shot kill or even one shot, i really dont understand why someone would still stand after a 7.62 from a M24, but collapse after a .50 to any bodypart

at the time, bulletspam wins the game, i dont think it should be like that in a survival game attempting to be realistic in some way

[pvtjace 37]

I dont even pickup hand guns unless its a .45 revolver.

Id rather bee line someone with an axe.

In saying that, a round of MP5 that doesnt kill is pathetic.

A G17 clip into someone laying prone is pathetic.

And im sure alot of you think you've shot a whole round but your shooting from the hip...But when your shooting from iron sights at a stationary target, that shouldnt happen dmg wise..

[boxman80 964]

One of the problems people have with snipers now is the fact they are so common. There’s several reasons for them being common, but aside from the obvious duping problem meaning there’s a greater number available, the main issue is there’s no reason NOT to have them when you find them, i.e . there’s no significant negative effects to sniping, unlike in real life. That leads to another problem whereby the commonality of the heavy military grade sniper rifles means that some people feel they NEED to carry a sniper rifle to combat the sheer numbers of foes who are likely to be using them, so the weapon becomes a necessity rather than a weapon of choice.

I’d be disappointed if weapons weren't heavily reworked for stand alone release to combat this kind of pit-fall in the game. I can understand why weapons such as the pistols have been nerfed a little presently to combat it but the point is things need to be better BALANCED.

I think part of this balance is to first of all to make guns to be more realistic in terms of power, range, ballistics etc. therefore handguns should be fatal usually within 1-2 shots when in effective range. This means you give correct strengths and weaknesses to guns. Yes, handguns become lethal with 1 to 2 shots in most cases, but I really don’t think there’s as much of a problem with this now as there’s more servers and less hot spot congenstion. Also with full release there will be hopefully more things to loot/scavenge for and more locations to do them hopefully spreading more hot spot locations, effectively dissolving massive player concentrations at close range better.

However there’s also going to need to the correct counter balances for the benefits of each gun, so in the case of hand guns this is that they are low range, lower powered (so body armour could be introduced), inaccurate (no cross hairs or aiming aims so range does become a real issue), slower rates of fire, loud (this really really needs to be a major factor! ALL fire arms should be like ringing a dinner bell!), and low amounts of bullets mean need for more magazines.

To aid balance for all firearms therefore I feel the gun, the magazines and the ammunition should all be separate entities that have to be individually scavenged or looted. So for example in case of the handguns, yes you can have a nice powerful Desert Eagle sure, but you need to scavenge yourself the gun first (that is probably going to be uncommon), the magazines (again uncommon) and then the .50 rounds to go with it. Then it’s going to be a bit of a chew on having to reload the 7 round magazines constantly with new .50 cal rounds.

Equally, if you want the AS50 you would need to find the rifle, risking encountering bandits who already have it, or searching likely spawn locations (again that are going to be dangerous themselves). Then you would need to scavenge magazines capable of fitting that gun, and finally the /50 cal rounds that fit that gun. If you only have one mag, once all 5 rounds have been spent in that mag, time would be needed to load another 5 rounds into the single magazine you have.

This is why greater emphasis needs to be put on a wider range of largely civilian based weapons to again counter balance and give greater option to those who don’t really want the head ache fire arms bring. . Greater emphasis should be put on lower tier weapons such as melee weapons such hammers, pipes, crow bars, escalating to hatchets, axes, machettes and swords. Then you should have your various common handguns, lots of shotguns and low calibre and common hunting rifles gradually escalating to less common military grade weapons and ammos.

Additionally, higher end guns should need more dedicated care and attention, so equipment such as oil and rags would be needed to keep them in good condition. If the guns are wet or in a poor state of maintenance the gun should be prone to misfires and total breakages. This would be another counter balance for the effectiveness of these guns.

Finally , partially an inventory issue, but the weight of these guns should also be a factor. A big .50 cal rifle is going to be heavy and cumbersome to drag around a post apocalyptic world! That’s an extra 20kg plus! Having weight restrictions to characters/packs/vets/slings should be factored in. So in order to carry the .50cal there would be a significant balance to be made in the form of having to sacrifice other heavy or cumbersome items on your person and movement should be slower.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Box

[snowcrash 82]

i am ok with all the guns, high powered snipers, DMR etc...but in my opinion the L85 lws should be removed, it really gives an unfair advantage, coz i can see players from over 700 m lying on the ground. So i dropped my L85 for a DMR..it was just to easy to play with it, not even a small challenge when u play with thermal...

And of Corse in standalone i would remove the 3dp option...it also gives an stupid unfair advantage, i can look at player without even a small peaking behind the walls, or trees..

just my opinion...

[Osaka (DayZ) 32]

In addition to gun being realistic or not.... If DAYZ is going to be super realistic, then make it so that broken bones to not occur from a 5 foot drop, and if you have a broken bone, add something to the game like a splint. SO you can "fix" it and your bones will heal over time. Morphine can be used so you can walk for a limited amount of time, and painkillers are only useful for mild pain. Make it so that you cannot kill a Zed by shooting it's legs off.

Only shots to the head will be effective on Zeds and maybe a shot to the heart. Drinking from a watersource without a bottle should be possible, and gunshot wounds to the chest cannot be cured with bandaid alone.

Make us fatigue.

You cannot sprint for hours and hours without passing out from exhaustion.

You need to sleep at least once every two days for 8 hours.

Good luck...

Edited September 26, 2012 by Dantevortex

[rocket 16567]

I think that the changes coming with regard to weapons will require a massive and complete rebalancing, and a resulting change in the entire way DayZ is played.

In simplified terms, currently ArmA2 stores your current weapon as (for all intents and purposes) a string reference. I.e. you have an "M16". This isn't strictly accurate, as it stores it as a config reference but I'm splitting hairs there...

We are moving dayz to a more object oriented reference system for weapons and equipment. For example, weapons will be an object, which means they can have references and attributes unique to that instance of it. So that M16 you are holding could have an attachment, say, that increases it's accuracy or reduces its muzzleflash. Or, your night vision goggles have batteries "attached" that get used over time. When you drop the object down or put it in your back, the information isn't "lost" as it would be currently.

This simple change might not seem much, but when tied with attributes such as weapon condition, you could see significant changes in play style. Pistols, in my experience, were a much simpler weapon to maintain than a rifle such as the Steyr AUG or the SAR 21 (two weapons I am very familiar with). DayZ will replicate this with its object oriented approach to weapons. Catastrophic failure of your weapons is unlikely but your weapon would jam much more if it is deteriorated. Furthermore, for electronic items such as Night Vision Goggles or range finders, durability becomes extremely important. I have been experimenting with tying this into the damage system also, with good results... i.e. shoot someone in the head and cause huge damage to items on their head.

So I guess, to answer the question: the changes with standalone entirely change the relationship between equipment and the player. These changes as first seem rather trivial but quickly you can see how these will have very significant flow-on effects to the player. Hence, I am not spending any time at all focusing on re-balancing the weapons currently, rather focusing on increasing the authenticity using a few simple, yet wide-reaching, mechanic changes to "add" to the game rather than nerf something because it has an undesired effect.

(I hope this ramble makes sense!)

[rushcrush 20]

I don't have the smile on my face when I find any pistols, it's just the same as finding nothing.

[Jex =TE= (DayZ) 218]

I think that the changes coming with regard to weapons will require a massive and complete rebalancing, and a resulting change in the entire way DayZ is played.

(I hope this ramble makes sense!)

Makes perfect sense and exactly the route arma should have taken at Arma1. These changes will have a big affect on the gameplay - can't wait :)

[boxman80 964]

I think that the changes coming with regard to weapons will require a massive and complete rebalancing, and a resulting change in the entire way DayZ is played.

In simplified terms, currently ArmA2 stores your current weapon as (for all intents and purposes) a string reference. I.e. you have an "M16". This isn't strictly accurate, as it stores it as a config reference but I'm splitting hairs there...

We are moving dayz to a more object oriented reference system for weapons and equipment. For example, weapons will be an object, which means they can have references and attributes unique to that instance of it. So that M16 you are holding could have an attachment, say, that increases it's accuracy or reduces its muzzleflash. Or, your night vision goggles have batteries "attached" that get used over time. When you drop the object down or put it in your back, the information isn't "lost" as it would be currently.

This simple change might not seem much, but when tied with attributes such as weapon condition, you could see significant changes in play style. Pistols, in my experience, were a much simpler weapon to maintain than a rifle such as the Steyr AUG or the SAR 21 (two weapons I am very familiar with). DayZ will replicate this with its object oriented approach to weapons. Catastrophic failure of your weapons is unlikely but your weapon would jam much more if it is deteriorated. Furthermore, for electronic items such as Night Vision Goggles or range finders, durability becomes extremely important. I have been experimenting with tying this into the damage system also, with good results... i.e. shoot someone in the head and cause huge damage to items on their head.

So I guess, to answer the question: the changes with standalone entirely change the relationship between equipment and the player. These changes as first seem rather trivial but quickly you can see how these will have very significant flow-on effects to the player. Hence, I am not spending any time at all focusing on re-balancing the weapons currently, rather focusing on increasing the authenticity using a few simple, yet wide-reaching, mechanic changes to "add" to the game rather than nerf something because it has an undesired effect.

(I hope this ramble makes sense!)

I like the sound of the relative damage system. That could really lead to some tense stand offs and really adds another dimension to killing for loot! Im looking forward to seeing this in the game.

Also pleased to hear the weapons will be objects capable of having diffrent attributes according to attachments. However I am worried this might lead teh game being a bit like BF3 in terms of weapons - everyone playing for the uber M4 CQB SD laser powered sataliette guided muzzle suppressed RIS and foregrip , with night vision and thermal sights... The game should be about survival however necessary, not about style and who has the coolest weapon attachments.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Box

[smore98 225]

Certain weapons do require certain stat nerfing for the game to actually get a better sense of realism. The damage system however requires a major overall, since I am quite sure I can kill someone if I shoot them pointblank in the torso with a Remington.

What would be a bit more interesting, in the manner of the case, is an injury system that makes a bit more sense, such as, if you get shot in a certain part of the body e.g arm, your ability to use weaponry is reduced greatly, making it harder to aim. We already know that legs have their own system, but how about a more legit system?

[rocket 16567]

However I am worried this might lead teh game being a bit like BF3 in terms of weapons - everyone playing for the uber M4 CQB SD laser powered sataliette guided muzzle suppressed RIS and foregrip , with night vision and thermal sights... The game should be about survival however necessary, not about style and who has the best weapon.

Attachments were only listed as an example here, attributes is really the best word to use. An assigned attribute could be anything from batteries for an NVG, through to the amount of water in a canteen (or the quality of water in the canteen), or how perished a food/meat item you have is. Attachment could also be the magazine that you have for your weapon, both it's quality and the amount of rounds that it holds.

[kranky@dir.bg 27]

Rocket - you are already legend for the industry, man! Awesome approach - in fact - if you manage to cut completely the hacking and duping then AS50 would become really "extremely rare" weapon which require a lot of maintenance in exchange of the huge power.

[captainkaleb 5]

I have gotten a couple of kills with ther revolver and m9 with clean headshots. dont see why you aim for the body (atleast with pistols) when you know it barely does any damage.

[rocket 16567]

if you manage to cut completely the hacking and duping

I think that it is not achievable for us to completely cut hacking and duping, but we can aim to achieve two things:

1. Make it much, much harder so that the chances of you encountering a hacked or duped weapon are very rare.

2. Setup auditing systems to detect hacking and duping after the event (much easier than entirely stopping hacking). Rollback changes associated with this and issue bans/warnings where situation is clear.

As you mentioned, if we can do this then things will end up in a much better situation. Still, I think some of these limited changes will have a huge, huge impact on the style of play and the experience of players.