Remove humanity system(I m a survivor). Bandit/survivor concept "kills" the game

[mikyjax 3]

I, myself, proposed a lot of bad ideas because of the humanity system.

We all think as a survivor or a bandit. Those notions are bad and ruin the concept of this game.

Humanity is something that we will never be able to use.

We can't use that variable to give something to someone or remove something to someone. So it s just useless.

I killed 3 persons in this game. Only one survivor. what happened:

Each kill, I watched my top right screen saying : "Ok it was a bandit, I can feel good! Good for him!" or "damn, poor survivor... I feel bad"

This is not reallistic, I should just feel bad each time. Even if each time I judged it not avoidable. That s how it should work.

We are all survivors, no matter where our limit is.

There are group mixed of surivors and bandits.

Problem is for now, we have too much stats : Murders, bandits killed ect. We all know how easy it is to switch from survivor to bandit. It s useless and somethimes it can incitive players to their choice.

I want to stay a "good guy" and keep my humanity low, I don't kill him.

or worse:

I am a bandit, I need more kill on my counter.

We are all survivors made of choices that are ours, we don't need all the informations on that screen except one we don't have : "Time alive"

This concept Survivor/bandits is blinding us. Maybe this concept of "good or bad" shouldn't exist in this kind of game.

Some of you probably think it will increase the killing, I don't.

Because even with humanity system I keep my humanity system in my head: "should I kill him? or not?"

In The walking dead, he doesn't kill because of the face or the expression. They are axagerated to tell to the public "yes they will die they have a bad face and our hero is kind. Don't be pissed when our hero will shoot theim." But the real why, is because of the context. If I bring those guys to my group, it will be dangerous. He didn't killed theim on sight because of their face.

I think we must remove this concept the more quickly possible in this game but harder, we should remove this concept from our past experience in this game.

There is no bandits, no perfect guys, we are all Survivors.

For now, if my hand is shaking when I think of killing someone it s because I have not a single clue of his intention toward me.

If tomorrow I know for sure the guy in front of me is a "bandit"... well that incredible feeling will desapear just like in any other game and I will just click 10 times on a pixel guy.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Humanity system is indeed, fail prone. Am I less humane because I killed someone in self defense?

Regarding realism, ffs, let's assume this is a game and just needs to be made interesting using game rules. You can't replicate reality, just we need ideas that make sense gameplay wise, i.e.: they enhance gameplay without restricting or constraining, or simply telling players how to play.

Most anti-KoS proposals just ignore this fact: killing is fun and powerful, people will do it no matter what. Doesn't have to do with realism, not even remotely.

[mikyjax 3]

Why am I a "survivor" ?

Technically it s stupid in a game, this is of course a huge disadvantage.

The reason is simple, for now, people trying not to kill do it just because it s challenging and/or because their life conviction extend too much in the game.

The only advantage to this, is that even in the world going to shit YOU keep trying to be good.

That must remain the only reason to do it. So the humanity system is useless and can't be used.

It s just like in life, it s easier to be a jerk than trying to be right or in the law all the time.

Honesty is often penalized, and in a game so "realistic" it should be exactly the same.

We will adapt our way of playing with experiences we had in the game just like we would in a similar situation IRL. Not because of numbers top right screen.

[A Man Named GOB 1]

I agree, its a sandbox. We decide what to make with the tools available in it. I am all for risk associated with killing other people like sound or other things that haven't been thought of but I don't really want to be told by the game that I am good or bad.

[leo235 2]

Very much like where this idea is coming from / the explanations you have given.

@sabata:

Yes I think people are less humane who have killed in self defense. If someone told me on a party that someone broke into their house once and they had to kill them with their hands I would be very uncomfortable.

And I think realism should very much be the objective. Otherwise a military-simulation-style game seems a strange choice for the mod and THAT IS what draws me and people I know who play to this. Game rules that would increase fun would be precisely the kind of nonsense that bandit-skins were.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

"Yes I think people are less humane who have killed in self defense. If someone told me on a party that someone broke into their house once and they had to kill them with their hands I would be very uncomfortable."

So did you backstabbed the victim 20 times? Yes sir, but it was in self defense.

[mikyjax 3]

Yes, those numbers top right screen act like a bad advertisement.

If you want to know how many people you killed, take a pen and write it down on your arm.

About bandit kill, you should always feel regret when you kill someone. The bandit murder stats removes that "omg I killed someone :( " and remplaces it by "good for him"

The humanity variable will never be helping on anything. It will always incitive a way of playing wich is not good.

We have enough way to be cautious:

Stay away from coast

Stay away from big city and military stuff

The game is boring if you don't make anything of those, so when we go there, yes, the KOS is a logical way of thinking and it s highly possible we don't survive those travel.

We change our way of thinking when in this or this context. That s how it should work, not with any humanity system that prevent us to go in NW airfield or stary. Because it s almost not possible to go in stary without a firefight, that means what, survivors should only find beans and water and wait?

No, you should remove the humanity system and let people think what is "good or not".

The real thing to do is to give something great to people who do not want to kill for fun or for loot. It's to give theim the ability to rebuild the humanity. Create town, develop ressource ect. (plenty on posts on that and I know it s in your plans) For now there is nothing else to do than kill and loot. That s where the problem is coming from. People kill mainly because they are bored. You should maybe focus on that, not on something who give trouble to bandit.

I suppose it s easier to put flies or heartbeat on bandits, but it s not the solution and I'm sure you know it.

I know too the town concept and the ability to repair generator are an incredibly hard work for you.

So if the heartbeat is just the "Ok, this is temporary until 'good people' have something to do", yes why not.... But this is not the real problem.

[Jorden 63]

The problem is, no one feels remorse for making a kill. No one. Not even me.

I do not shoot on sight, but if the situation calls for it, you're the threat to my safety. I don't care if you're a bandit or survivor.

But on the other hand, no one cares about whether the guy they killed is good or bad, if it's a new can of beans, that's all that matters to them.

So either way, with the system or not, the way people play the game will not change.

[haviv[3rdid] 57]

Humanity is just another MMO/RPG relic. It's up to players to decide their own feelings, humanity, etc and not have the game tell them how they are supposed to feel/think. The game should only answer the question: are you gonna die soon or not? (starving, cold, blood indicators)

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Humanity is just another MMO/RPG relic. It's up to players to decide their own feelings' date=' humanity, etc and not have the game tell them how they are supposed to feel/think. The game should only answer the question: are you gonna die soon or not? (starving, cold, blood indicators)

[/quote']

While most suggestions regarding PvP issues are fail prone and limit player options, I tell you the way dayZ plays right now is a time bomb that will sink this mod sooner or later. A MP mod where you respawn, pick weapons/stuff and try to survive lacks differentiation.

Where's the social aspect, like finding rare items and trading them for things you may need for instance. We are missing lots of interesting interactions because some persons are ok with killing anything that moves, like any other FPS.

[scratch 7]

Some kind of economy, something that makes it very worthwhile to interact with other players is far more suitable than punishing players form defending themselves (Or just being plain d|cks)

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

Economy emerges from supply and demand.

The game is ripe for an economy you don't need to artificially implement one. In theory if meet someone and I need a blood transfusion , or some food , or ammo. I would trade with them.

Why doesn't it work? Because its easier, safer and cheaper to shoot them and take what you want.

[bjarnidk 9]

I' date=' myself, proposed a lot of bad ideas because of the humanity system.

We all think as a survivor or a bandit. Those notions are bad and ruin the concept of this game.

Humanity is something that we will never be able to use.

We can't use that variable to give something to someone or remove something to someone. So it s just useless.

I killed 3 persons in this game. Only one survivor. what happened:

Each kill, I watched my top right screen saying : "Ok it was a bandit, I can feel good! Good for him!" or "damn, poor survivor... I feel bad"

This is not reallistic, I should just feel bad each time. Even if each time I judged it not avoidable. That s how it should work.

We are all survivors, no matter where our limit is.

There are group mixed of surivors and bandits.

Problem is for now, we have too much stats : Murders, bandits killed ect. We all know how easy it is to switch from survivor to bandit. It s useless and somethimes it can incitive players to their choice.

I want to stay a "good guy" and keep my humanity low, I don't kill him.

or worse:

I am a bandit, I need more kill on my counter.

We are all survivors made of choices that are ours, we don't need all the informations on that screen except one we don't have : "Time alive"

This concept Survivor/bandits is blinding us. Maybe this concept of "good or bad" shouldn't exist in this kind of game.

Some of you probably think it will increase the killing, I don't.

Because even with humanity system I keep my humanity system in my head: "should I kill him? or not?"

In The walking dead, he doesn't kill because of the face or the expression. They are axagerated to tell to the public "yes they will die they have a bad face and our hero is kind. Don't be pissed when our hero will shoot theim." But the real why, is because of the context. If I bring those guys to my group, it will be dangerous. He didn't killed theim on sight because of their face.

I think we must remove this concept the more quickly possible in this game but harder, we should remove this concept from our past experience in this game.

There is no bandits, no perfect guys, we are all Survivors.

For now, if my hand is shaking when I think of killing someone it s because I have not a single clue of his intention toward me.

If tomorrow I know for sure the guy in front of me is a "bandit"... well that incredible feeling will desapear just like in any other game and I will just click 10 times on a pixel guy.

[/quote']

The problem is that this is a GAME. Not reality. In a video game, we have no feelings towards an animate object just as in traffic we have no feelings for the cars around us (thus roadrage). We don't care about murdering pixels.. It was never embedded in us to show compassion to pixels. That's why we need a system to regulate murders.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

See thatns not true bjardnick.

You know there's a person behind those pixels who has put in as much effort as you have , and will probably be fucked off if you kill them. That's where griefers get their pleasure they know they are pissing people off.

But not only that before the bandit skin change , I felt guilty if i killed someone without a bandit skin, and justified when i killed one who had a bandit skin.

Maybe it was a bit two dimensional but it def evoked emotions. Now I have to just kill on sight because I know what's what will be done to me. There is much less emotion / morality involved. it has been pared back to purely kill or be killed.

[RonnieG 0]

There will always be KoS's until there's an incentive not to do it. I don't feel remorse for killing other players anymore than I feel remorse for killing the bunnies for food. I don't actively kill others but, do when I feel threatened. I think that all of these numbers should still be there but, it shouldn't be shown to the player. The icons at the bottom right of the screen are representative enough of your basic needs that the upper right box isn't necessary at all. I hardly look at it. I don't need to know how many players or bandits I've murdered. The only time I've ever used that is to check if the person I was shooting at stopped shooting at me because he died or ran away. The humanity system can stay, just hide the numbers and only show them upon your death. If you never die then you'll never know.

[x0pticLukeZz 0]

I think the humanity system will be left in because Rocket has stated he would like to encourage teamplay in some way (I can't find where I read that but I know I have).

I think it's a good idea too. Everyone shouting for realism and stating that in reality you can't tell the difference between a "bandit" and a "survivor" need to realise that DayZ is built for entertainment and is not wholly a simulator. There's only so much reality you can squeeze into a game where human beings can't jump ;)

The humanity system is a rudimentary way of telling whether someone is trustworthy or not. Obviously it has many kinks that need working out before more teamplay objectives are added to the game but the idea is in place.

[Rocko D 0]

Some kind of economy' date=' something that makes it very worthwhile to interact with other players is far more suitable than punishing players form defending themselves (Or just being plain d|cks)

[/quote']

my first post: Hi everyone and sorry for the bad english.

I wanted to let you know my suggestions about the humanity system - but didnt want to open an new thread because there were plenty. So i chosed this one.

My suggestion is to add "social needs" that decreases like food or water - but very slowly.

To increase your "social needs" you have to interact with other player.

slow = have other players around

faster = trade goog stuf (?)

fast = bandage woundet / give blood

decrease a amount of "sozial needs" by killing human or stealing

Waht happens when you have less and less "social needs"?

- tremble

- tunnel view

- psychosis (acoustik ore visual)

- the lower your "social needs" the chance that you do a random shot with your weapon.

(nevous hijack behavior)

The player interaction will be necessary. So you want shot a human if you see one, because you could realy need him. It increase your chance so survive.

Organized bandit gangs could move on - because they arrange good "social needs" stats.

The "psychotic-killer" could play on this way. He only gets the (realistic?) psycho behavior.

PVP is still possible but it is not reqiured to shot at every human bevor he shots at you - so much less player - player kills.

What do you think about it (rocket?)

[mikyjax 3]

The thing is, teamplay and humanity is nothing related.

I m fully with the idea of giving a meaning to teamplay, like build city ect, 100%

But the humanity system has nothing to do with that. It can even reduce the teamplay.

Exemple:

Survivors are trying to build a city, a bandit shows up, his intention is to offer his help to protect the area. After 1 minutes everybody hear the heartbeat going crazy because the "bandit" killed a lot of people. And the bandit got shot. Because of his heartbeat.

Another example is that a survivor won't try to team up with guys that sound or look like bandit.

And we lost interractions. Because without humanity they would have teamed up and that would have maybe been awesome.

+, Looking at numbers top screen helps you to know that the guy is killed. It s like the sentence "X was killed" this removes an aspect of the game.

Is the guy camping? is he faking dead to kill me when I come? is he dead?

The only way is to get close and check pulse. This will increase the tension. With those numbers, it s lost again.

Without talking of guys who want to test the different ways of playing.

With this actual humanity system: "no, you were a bandit once, you'll stay a bandit for very long, and to help your transition in a good guy, heart beat of people you come close to will get crazy. Good luck ex-dumbass!"

A lot of people stay on killing spree because they know their humanity is to fucked to try another approach of the game.

I really do think this humanity system is a mistake.

And I totally desagree with some of your posts where you say there are no feeling in killing players. I swear that when I kill someone and I don't see the "bandit killed" increment, I do feel bad for the guy that I killed.

Anything you will do about humanity will always divide people and not make theim team up.

The humanity system is creating two clans: Bandits and survivors, that s all.

[dallas 5195]

Humanity is everything.

Humanity is the gauge of how you decide to play this mod. If you treat DayZ as a competative mode, you put less emphasis on humanity, if you play DayZ in a cooperative manner, you put more emphasis on humanity.

Coop players do feel remorse and friendly players, even in selfdefense takes a hit on their humanity, when being forced to take another player's life. But we also feel relief, when it's them or us and it's us that walks away alive. Playing as a survivor, sometimes my humanity drops below zero, but as a survivor, I then try to avoid more killings and help out more, to regain my humanity. Other survivors do not recover from their first murder, they take a humanity hit and continues as if nothing had happened, they take another and before too long they've lost their humanity completely.

Humanity is a pretty difficult stat to impliment in a game, which doesn't wish to dictate morals. We tried bandit skins, that didn't work, now another humanity feature has been suggested, let's test that out. Alpha is still alpha. Maybe we'll even have a stage where humanity is left out, even ifI think it's the whole essence of all tails of the struggle for survival.

[mikyjax 3]

I understand your thoughts Dallas.

I know it s alpha and we'll see where all of this is going.

But I certainly doubt that numbers in debug window helped only once for a bug report.

Beeing able to printscreen your kill number is not the goal of this mod. This mod is about survival and for now those numbers are a way to show, or remain us, how good at killing we are.

Real playing hours (since days mean nothing) and zombie killed are the two only variables we should be able to see. (zombie killed is already not necessary for me).

I don't want to know who I killed, I don't want the game to tell me if I must feel gulty or not.

If I see a guy shooting another, then another more, I will think "that guy is a threat" I should take him out. I kill him, period. I don't need the game to tell me what kind of player he was.

If Humanity remains in the game, then it should restart on each character. Because we are here to experience. Beeing stuck as a bandit is not interresting. We learn from our mistake, that s all what we have after die. Nothing positive or negative, it s a new life, perma-death.

[robosheriff 13]

Humanity system is indeed' date=' fail prone. Am I less humane because I killed someone in self defense? [/quote']

Yea you are less humane after you kill someone even if it was in self defense.

I mean you just shot someone to da face

[Rocko D 0]

Some kind of economy' date=' something that makes it very worthwhile to interact with other players is far more suitable than punishing players form defending themselves (Or just being plain d|cks)

[/quote']

my first post: Hi everyone and sorry for the bad english.

I wanted to let you know my suggestions about the humanity system - but didnt want to open an new thread because there were plenty. So i chosed this one.

My suggestion is to add "social needs" that decreases like food or water - but very slowly.

To increase your "social needs" you have to interact with other player.

slow = have other players around

faster = trade goog stuf (?)

fast = bandage woundet / give blood

decrease a amount of "sozial needs" by killing human or stealing

Waht happens when you have less and less "social needs"?

- tremble

- tunnel view

- psychosis (acoustik ore visual)

- the lower your "social needs" the chance that you do a random shot with your weapon.

(nevous hijack behavior)

The player interaction will be necessary. So you want shot a human if you see one, because you could realy need him. It increase your chance so survive.

Organized bandit gangs could move on - because they arrange good "social needs" stats.

The "psychotic-killer" could play on this way. He only gets the (realistic?) psycho behavior.

PVP is still possible but it is not reqiured to shot at every human bevor he shots at you - so much less player - player kills.

What do you think about it (rocket?)

I would be happy if anyone answers my idea.

IMO it sounds great and answers the only-PVP-shoter problem. What is your opnion?

[deepfried 95]

@OP The problem here is that you're loosing sight of the fact that this is a game, and so the people taking part will not act as they would in real life: they know there are no "real" consequences or risks other than maybe loosing your gear.

In real life people would be much much much less likely to kill others and very very few would do that just for the sake of doing it (which is the primary motivation for 95% of banditry at the moment).

We have to use some sort of artificial gameplay mechanic if we are to have any hope of the gameplay (I.e. how people behave in the game) being even remotely realistic. Without that its just another pvp shooter which happens to be in a sandbox.... this game is aiming to be more than that and we as gamers deserve more than that.

[Srellian 0]

In real life people would be much much much less likely to kill others and very very few would do that just for the sake of doing it (which is the primary motivation for 95% of banditry at the moment).

Totally agree with that:

http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=15698

"Hi!

We all know that there is leaderboard for murders. We all want to be in that leaderboard"

There are too many players who are spawn killing, not to loot the players,

but to easily increase their kill count.

Removing the murders leaderboard would be a good start.

That mod is about surviving the apocalypse, not killing as many people as you can.

[leo235 2]

In real life people would be much much much less likely to kill others and very very few would do that just for the sake of doing it (which is the primary motivation for 95% of banditry at the moment).

Totally agree with that:

http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=15698

"Hi!

We all know that there is leaderboard for murders. We all want to be in that leaderboard"

There are too many players who are spawn killing' date=' not to loot the players,

but to easily increase their kill count.

Removing the murders leaderboard would be a good start.

That mod is about surviving the apocalypse, not killing as many people as you can.

[/quote']

So make humanity open to the top and have a humanity leaderboard and a humanity/day leaderboard and a humanity/whatever leaderboard?