Is KOS really that big of a problem?

[shagohad 124]

How is DayZ not balanced? There are no classes, skills, leveling, everyone has the same skill set from spawn. I don't care to meet up with some random guy I see. How is that hard to understand an accept? NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE YOUR FRIEND AND HUG EACH OTHER. Do you even know what balance means in game terms? Something not balanced would be, a bandit has 50k blood and survivors have 15k. :facepalm:

i think you should look at balance in a different way, not in a purely stats way. Such as "this gun fires faster but reloads longer" way that is traditional to fast paced FPS

Its more like a natural balance that used to exist. High level guys wouldnt be on the coast unless they were in a coordinated team stirring shit up. This was due to risk vs reward, the coast is higher population, with lower level loot and is less predictable in some ways.

this balance has been tipped however, the cosmic balance of DayZ is off, loot has no value, death has no repercussions

[Buffjesus 357]

Man did you even read the post...the balance issue isn't -per player- all characters have the same choices yes. The balance issue is that 80% of them choose to kill you for moving. -That- isn't balance. You are missing the point yet again good sir.

Ideally you should have 50% banditry 50% heroes. Not 80% KoS 20% heroes? I know these numbers are not exactly right but its damn close.

in a game where ANYBODY can take EVERYTHING you have away from you PERMANENTLY there will never be style balance

it will always be majority KoS because of that

if you want to keep your gear then you trust no one. even if the first 9 people are friendly and dont try and kill you, the 10th might.

but that 10th guy could of been #6 or any of the others, so if you want to keep your gear no risks.

[SillySil 295]

in a game where ANYBODY can take EVERYTHING you have away from you PERMANENTLY there will never be style balance

it will always be majority KoS because of that

if you want to keep your gear then you trust no one. even if the first 9 people are friendly and dont try and kill you, the 10th might.

but that 10th guy could of been #6 or any of the others, so if you want to keep your gear no risks.

Why do you people assume that we're friendly? We KoS too. We're just don't like that the game favors it. And I don't see how the fact that you can choose your playstyle makes it impossible to balance them. Just give a downside to killing people, since there is no reason not to kill at the moment.

[shagohad 124]

Why do you people assume that we're friendly? We KoS too. We're just don't like that the game favors it. And I don't see how the fact that you can choose your playstyle makes it impossible to balance them. Just give a downside to killing people, since there is no reason not to kill at the moment.

the downside is you dont get to mix it up with some randoms

I could go play BF3 anonomously and never talk and just pewpew all day, i come here for player interaction, made lots of friends In GAME on dayZ, never had that in another game really

[Buffjesus 357]

Why do you people assume that we're friendly? We KoS too. We're just don't like that the game favors it. And I don't see how the fact that you can choose your playstyle makes it impossible to balance them. Just give a downside to killing people, since there is no reason not to kill at the moment.

not quite sure how to respond to this pile, but

i gave good case situation numbers of meeting people in chenarus, and how even if majority would not kill you any of them could have.

and since there will ALWAYS be the risk of that person being out there you will take precautions. it doesnt matter if when they shoot you they turn into a pile of goo on the ground for 5 minutes, theres still the chance they might do it. as long as that fear is there and people value their earned gear, KoS will happen a lot.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Buffjesus

[realspike 10]

Im rarely dying to anything else but people shooting on sight.. Im not that experienced, im not sure if its because im just bad and dont notice them until its too late.

Im just gearing up on low pop servers in the nearest city.. then i want to leave the supermarket and get 3 shots in the chest. Next time im able to leave the city and walk 10 minutes through the forest when a sniper shoots +5 times at me and misses all the time, i cant see him i just try to run and hide but get hit once and die immediately.

Im not super cautious because i dont play on servers with more than 5 or 10 people... and i rarely get to kill anyone and i rarely shoot first, mostly because i dont see them first.

Its a bit demotivating, but i wouldnt suggest any artificial barrier. But in RL you wouldnt hunt people down just because its fun.. its too much just a game from that perspective.

I dunno how to solve that situation... i guess the game offers not much possibilities to interact, so to no get bored, people hunt other players..

ye i dunno where im going with this, just my chaotic thoughts..

[SillySil 295]

the downside is you dont get to mix it up with some randoms

I could go play BF3 anonomously and never talk and just pewpew all day, i come here for player interaction, made lots of friends In GAME on dayZ, never had that in another game really

I don't get mixed with randoms because the chance of getting a bullet in the face or in my back is just too great for me to bet all my gear on it. Even if I'm a freshspawn and befriend someone there is a good chance he'll want something that we'll find for himself.

If I make friends in DayZ it's either by this or another forum or their teamspeak. And I'm already playing with friends. Looking for friends in game is like looking to befriend a dog by attaching steaks to your body and running through a rottweiler farm.

not quite sure how to respond to this pile, but

i gave good case situation numbers of meeting people in chenarus, and how even if majority would not kill you any of them could have.

and since there will ALWAYS be the risk of that person being out there you will take precautions. it doesnt matter if when they shoot you they turn into a pile of goo on the ground for 5 minutes, theres still the chance they might do it. as long as that fear is there and people value their earned gear, KoS will happen a lot.

The point isn't to eradicate PvP it would be boring. The point is to give people a reason not to shoot. To give a trade off to killing people.

[WM.Zach 8]

It's all part of the game really. thats what makes dayz the kind of game it is. the choice of life an death is all of our hands really. To take that away would be a great discredit to rocket an his partners. I think we need to focus more on getting rid of the hackers and the spawned in shit then kos. because kos is part of the game its what makes it all about survival i have killed 3 players so far all of which were trying to kill me. if i run across a friendly player i share my food an water with them an have a convo telling them where to find things etc. Shocking that i find more friendlys then i do hostils but i stick to the woods an drink from remote wells an kill animals forget going into the city. The roles have changed in this world. The savages live in the concrete world an the civilized folk stay in the woods in cover.

[Angel Knight 427]

Quite simply - who the hell do you think you are running around pulling stunts like that? Ethically it's not any different than KOS, it's just riskier for you.

A lot of players do not care about ethics, so that point is mostly irrelevant. Assuming it mattered, no, it is less risky for me if I have the gun pointed at them, not the other way around.

If you pulled this sort of stunt IRL, in many cases and jurisdictions they'd be legally justified in shooting you. I imagine many players living in places where they're just peons and not actual citizens have no experience with this sort of thing.

Completely pointless and somewhat insulting statement.

If you want to ethically avoid killing players, then your only reasonable options are paying attention and avoiding them entirely, or having big brass balls and approaching them while clearly not presenting a threat.

I've had FAR more luck with approaching them undetected and speaking from a vantage point, and virtually every friendly I've ever met says the same. What you are describing is called stupidity, not friendly.

We also need to address the bizarre fixation some people have on not getting shot by other people. These people seem to assume they have some sort of value to others. They often don't. Most likely you have nothing they want, you can't do anything for them that they can't do better on their own, and they're not interested in being your friend. If you approach them you're either a hostile, an idiot, or someone wanting something. There is no reason for them to help you, and the reasonable thing for them to do is either flee or shoot you.

In this, you are correct. Hence the need for more motivation to not shoot everyone, otherwise that will become the default behaviour since the game's mechanics favor those who open fire first.

[SillySil 295]

It's all part of the game really. thats what makes dayz the kind of game it is. the choice of life an death is all of our hands really. To take that away would be a great discredit to rocket an his partners. I think we need to focus more on getting rid of the hackers and the spawned in shit then kos. because kos is part of the game its what makes it all about survival i have killed 3 players so far all of which were trying to kill me. if i run across a friendly player i share my food an water with them an have a convo telling them where to find things etc. Shocking that i find more friendlys then i do hostils but i stick to the woods an drink from remote wells an kill animals forget going into the city. The roles have changed in this world. The savages live in the concrete world an the civilized folk stay in the woods in cover.

What are you going to focus on? Hacking and duping isn't going away from the mod. Only the standalone can help with it.

[Angel Knight 427]

You probably won't stop saving someone who is about to die asking if their is a reward, you do it because you feel it is right morally. Some might not be able to do so given the chance to or would choose not to. People looking for an advantage or a reward for preferred play style aren't heroes I think. Being a hero seems more of a trait or someone with too much faith in people. ;)

I would agree with most of you're saying, but not everyone incorporates their morals into video games. Your statement is nullified for any such players, and based on both forum responses and the in game behaviour of hackers and skiddies and elektro snipetards, that is a large population.

[Angel Knight 427]

The fact that there are (at the time of posting this) 8 people who think this is a problem that needs addressing, tells me one thing and one thing alone....

You people are playing the wrong game. Quit trying to fuck with the only game we have left that doesn't cater to the carebears and go play one of the other countless games your kind has corrupted.

Or it means people have opinions other than yours and you should respect that, although your response has made it pretty clear that won't happen.

[WM.Zach 8]

What are you going to focus on? Hacking and duping isn't going away from the mod. Only the standalone can help with it.

I am going to focus on surviving like i always do until the standalone game comes out i am sure there is some way we could address the hackers on some form or another.

[realspike 10]

OHHH I have a great idea!!

in my last post i said, ye the game isnt realistic, people wouldnt behave like psychopaths even in a apocalypse. I mean they would shoot people which pose a threat, but in dayz people get shot just for fun a lot too. Thats what happens to me all the time.

What about you would implement some kind of consciousness with physical symptoms like shaking, blurry vision, night mares, hallucinations etc..?? a bit amnesia style if you know what i mean.

So if you're humanity gets worse, you have to experience more and more of those symptoms randomly. Of course this would affect your combat abilities negatively but you could counteract against it by drugging your conscience. As long as you drink alcohol, take painkillers, tranquiliziers, shrooms, weed (i dont know, any kind of drug u want to implement into the game + the way you can supply yourself with it) its fine and you can fight those symptoms. If your humanity is really really low you need even more to bear that guilt.

but i dont like it that your humanity doesnt reset if you start a new character. thats ruining the point of having to start all over again.

I think its not possible with this engine but i would love it. let me know what you think about it.

Edited September 15, 2012 by realspike

[sostronk 334]

It doesn't appear to be as big a problem as it is right now. Most people do kill on sight. Ive only run into two people my entire time playing that haven't. But it doesn't matter atm because I can just join low/medium pop servers. But if Rocket does what I think hes considering, I think hes gonna make it so you can't join low pop server but be auto joined to a server than you can't avoid people and forced to play the PvP game so many people want.

[Buffjesus 357]

It doesn't appear to be as big a problem as it is right now. Most people do kill on sight. Ive only run into two people my entire time playing that haven't. But it doesn't matter atm because I can just join low/medium pop servers. But if Rocket does what I think hes considering, I think hes gonna make it so you can't join low pop server but be auto joined to a server than you can't avoid people and forced to play the PvP game so many people want.

and kill all group play with friends and clans

no he wont

[sostronk 334]

and kill all group play with friends and clans

From what I heard he is intending on adding a "party" component to the game where players can join as a party...

[juuso@doubou.net 1]

This game and this so called "issue" reminds me of all apocalypse movies and what is happening there. Let me explain - usually there is a lone wolf protagonist or a small group doing its thing staying alive and the they run to a big posse of geared grunts. Protagonist fights for dear life against this big mean machine and usually (it's a movie..) finds a way out and survives.

The thing common in these to scenarios are that these to character types are present. The "nice guy" survivor minding his/hers own business and maybe looking for a side kick and the mean machine killing everything on its way. To me the problem seems to be that when there is no visual diversity other than ghillie, camo, bandit/hero skins and there is no way to use body language in a way that would be present in real life the game mechanics and the "everyone does KoS so should i" mentality turns most of those regular Joe survivors into bandits because they think that this is the standard of staying alive.

It is (IMO) too easy to put your feelings aside if you will and go all "insert general FPS name" on everyones ass. I personally like to play the game in a way I think I would act if this would be reality. I tend to avoid players that I don't know. I sneak from zombies rather than just run and lose the to some building. I take only what I need and don't hoard for the bad day. I want to play it in this way and here is the big reason: Feelings. This game has given me the biggest joys of surviving situations or finding some precious loot. I once almost shat my self when I was in middle of a forest and accidentally fired my gun. I was so scared thinking that I'm in a middle of a fire fight with no idea where the enemy is with no where to escape and will just get killed here because I just happened to cross some ones path.

I'd say to give out some so called balance make every item rarer and loose all high end military weapons. In a nut shell: Make it hard to just have LOLz while shooting AS50 from a hill near Elektro or Cherno..

Edited September 15, 2012 by meansoap

[Gavalin 90]

This game and this so called "issue" reminds me of all apocalypse movies and what is happening there. Let me explain - usually there is a lone wolf protagonist or a small group doing its thing staying alive and the they run to a big posse of geared grunts. Protagonist fights for dear life against this big mean machine and usually (it's a movie..) finds a way out and survives.

The thing common in these to scenarios are that these to character types are present. The "nice guy" survivor minding his/hers own business and maybe looking for a side kick and the mean machine killing everything on its way. To me the problem seems to be that when there is no visual diversity other than ghillie, camo, bandit/hero skins and there is no way to use body language in a way that would be present in real life the game mechanics and the "everyone does KoS so should i" mentality turns most of those regular Joe survivors into bandits because they think that this is the standard of staying alive.

It is (IMO) too easy to put your feelings aside if you will and go all "insert general FPS name" on everyones ass. I personally like to play the game in a way I think I would act if this would be reality. I tend to avoid players that I don't know. I sneak from zombies rather than just run and lose the to some building. I take only what I need and don't hoard for the bad day. I want to play it in this way and here is the big reason: Feelings. This game has given me the biggest joys of surviving situations or finding some precious loot. I once almost shat my self when I was in middle of a forest and accidentally fired my gun. I was so scared thinking that I'm in a middle of a fire fight with no idea where the enemy is with no where to escape and will just get killed here because I just happened to cross some ones path.

I'd say to give out some so called balance make every item rarer and loose all high end military weapons. In a nut shell: Make it hard to just have LOLz while shooting AS50 from a hill near Elektro or Cherno..

Aye I would like to see more people play the game like that.

The thing is, I keep using numbers to make it easier to notice and still it goes over few folks heads.

When a game is mechanically inclined to favor a play style, in the given situation banditry, a lot of folks with be KoS bandits for -that- reason and that reason alone. This is the point SillySil has tried to get people to understand.

Yes I don't kill unless is defensive, its my choice, makes the game harder for me.

Bandits, actual bandits, have to work to be what they are (Kill all mofo's) however this logic is easy to do and if you can remotely play the game, easy to accomplish.

The undecided 50% of the gaming world...will go with the second option simply and purely because its easier.

I do not wish to see bandits punished, I just wish them to give the game something that Heroes get outta the game. Like I can't even get a bunch of loot and approach someone to give it them, unless they are fact a fresh spawn.

Now some people -have- encountered friendlies. I am someone who hasn't. Well found one guy on a private hive. That aside 100% of the people I have ran into shoot at me, or Alt f4.

[Welch (DayZ) 756]

I don't think OP realizes how much this game leans on PvP. If you have played a LAN server, where nobody's in it, it's rediculously boring. Now if zeds were way harder and spawned everywhere, regardless of buildings, then PvP wouldn't be as necessary.

[Inception. 9443]

Bandits don't KOS unless the situation deems it to be an absolute necessity. You're talking about murderers, not bandits.

But I do really like the choices for the poll. Great selections.

People, if you don't want to be killed on sight and you don't want to kill on sight, you need to learn how to avoid.

[Gavalin 90]

Bandits don't KOS unless the situation deems it to be an absolute necessity. You're talking about murderers, not bandits.

But I do really like the choices for the poll. Great selections.

People, if you don't want to be killed on sight and you don't want to kill on sight, you need to learn how to avoid.

I'm a hero that is a hero from doing this. Thats part of the problem. You -gain- something from killing a player (It is now a non threat and might have a useful item to you on him.)

If you avoid them: Really the only thing you gain here is an increase risk of him spotting you some how and due to the mentality, killing or shooting at you

Trying to help them: Grants a high chance to die, they will ALT F4, or generally just run away.

I completely understand its with in peoples rights to make these choices but the unbalancing issues comes from no one will group with you and even if they do...the chance they turn on you his very high. Because there is no incentive to group. Game is just easier solo.

Giving the game a small reward would help til the scales so you'd see more groups, you'd see -more- of the game being played and not some death match knock off.

[Inception. 9443]

I'm a hero that is a hero from doing this. Thats part of the problem. You -gain- something from killing a player (It is now a non threat and might have a useful item to you on him.)

If you avoid them: Really the only thing you gain here is an increase risk of him spotting you some how and due to the mentality, killing or shooting at you

Trying to help them: Grants a high chance to die, they will ALT F4, or generally just run away.

I completely understand its with in peoples rights to make these choices but the unbalancing issues comes from no one will group with you and even if they do...the chance they turn on you his very high. Because there is no incentive to group. Game is just easier solo.

Giving the game a small reward would help til the scales so you'd see more groups, you'd see -more- of the game being played and not some death match knock off.

Rewarding those who group up/help each other is honestly a great idea. But I don't think those who do otherwise [i.e. murderers] should be penalized.

[Smalltown 29]

Personally, I do think the KoSing has gotten a little over the top. Nine times outta ten, folks are killing each other for no reason. Fresh spawners, helpful folks, etc. Hell, most bandits I've seen kill are doing it out of sheer reaction, they mostly don't even bother to loot the bodies.

Not crying about it, just think alot of folks are killing simply to kill.

[porkus_maximus 36]

Ultimately everything has already been said on this topic but I'll weigh in since I have a horrible cold and can't sleep.

The fundamental issue with DayZ is that it's a sandbox survival game where the sandbox is empty and survival is easy but ultimately pointless. There are no long term goals available for survival gameplay other than maybe getting a vehicle, or trying to find a specific weapon. Most experienced players will have everything they need to survive within about an hour of gameplay, unless they are exceptionally unlucky finding the essentials (it once took me SIX HOURS of gameplay to find a hatchet if you can beleive that).

The game is less about trying to stay alive and more about trying to kill as many people as possible before going down in a blaze of glory. Many people will argue that they KoS in order to keep their character alive. I personally find that a little hypocrtical since in most situations it's extremely easy to simply avoid other players and I find that people make an active choice to escalate the situation to a point where someone is going to die. But honestly I can't blame them because there's literally no reason not to shoot someone if you have the opportunity to. The absolutely WORST case scenario is that you shoot at a guy, miss and he or someone else kills you... but is that really a big deal? Unless you're rolling with some exceptionally rare equipment it's not going to be a huge loss, despite claims that this mod has "permadeath" life is extremely cheap and it doesn't take long to get back on your feet. If you're the kind of person who simply goes around shooting other players for shits and giggles then even if you die it will only take you 10-15 minutes tops to find another gun and continue on your murderous rampage.

DayZ has the potential to be a truely immersive experience but right now there's very little to become immersed in and it's not very surprising that so many people play the way they do.

Empty sandbox environment + internet annonimity + complete lack of consequences for your actions = everyone acts like dickholes to each other.