Friendly survivor system (hard-coded 'friendliness')

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Just adds a bit of force trust to player encounters' date=' allowing groups of players with FF off to cooperate without worry about backstabbers, only bandits with FF on.

[/quote']

Well, backstabbers just will have to adapt somehow. Like finding some buddy that want to play the friendly role and take some other friendlies to an ambush. Or just gaining someone's trust and later let them die surrounded by zombies, like pretending you want to help and running away when things get ugly.

[rocket 16567]

Thanks for the suggestion, I read through it and discussed it with some friends. Unfortunately, it just doesn't fit within the design pillars that I have set. I'm not designing this as a set of mechanics to enable or disable certain styles of gameplay, my main focus is on the emotional situation of the player.

I'm not "dealing" with the KoS issue. My aim is to add some levels of subtle fear and tension to an area that currently has none. Hence the heartbeat mechanism appears to be something that might do that. Your suggested mechanic, while quite possibly "dealing" with the KoS, does not meet my aims of adding subtlety and tension, I would even argue that it actually reduces it.

[resident emil 1]

Hi,

I am generally against this kind of solutions and more for mechanics that add incentives to working together.

I do believe that I understand what Sabata is trying to explain. However, there are some mechanics that are not explained in his post. If I understand it correctly:

* Two people who both choose this FF-off option can no longer shot each other.

* They can still shoot other players who has not chosen the FF-off option. (including bandits)

* They can not shoot anyone else who has also chosen the FF-off option. Neither can those players shoot them.

* If anyone chooses to re-enable the FF-on there should be a cool down (and visual indication) hindering people from just turning it of and killing friends by surprise.

This would _not_ hamper bandit behavior. Neither would it hamper friends ability to defend against bandits or other survivors.

This would possibly increase peoples willingness to team up with unknown players.

[miqueloz 33]

This suggestion would definitely reduce tension. If you know for a fact that people wearing X skin can't shoot you, there's zero tension.

[rutok 4]

Wow, this must be the dumbest suggestion ever. I am not suprised you didnt name any mods you claimed to have made.

Lets think for a second what made this mod so successfull. What brought all those people here, what made them buy arma 2?

Its definetly NOT just the chance to rush to the beach and kill people for beans. There are plenty other games out there where you can just shoot people (and a lot of them are better optimised for it).

No, what brings people is the premise that this game is fucking HARD! That its harsh, unforgiving and that you can loose your shit in a second. THIS is the difference that sets this mod apart from the countless shooters out there. And as far as i know it may be the only difference. Left 4 dead has more zombis, less lag. Battlefield has instant vehicles, less lag...

So if you make this game easier (by introducing selective friendly fire, nerf guns for bandits, spawning magical shields for beginners, whatever..) would turn it into just another shooter.

People argue that it is a shooter already. Maybe so.. but its the harshest shooter out there. Where even a bean carrying noob with a macarov can headshot a fully equiped bad ass bandit with assault rifle.

[stephansabath@t-online.de 40]

Its like in real life when the news say: "He was allways so friendly, he allways looked out for his kids" and what happened? He killed his wife yesterday.

Same here. I tell you "yes im friendly, I´m allways friendly" you´ll maybe come closer and I shot you.

Please review the DayZ trailer, where all has been said, what the mod is all about. If you change this, it will not be that thrilling anymore, it will break the idea of this mod.

Group up with friends or be the lonley wolf and don´t trust anyone. This advise is simple, but so important in this mod world.

[rocket 16567]

NOTE:

I merged your two threads together.

[stephansabath@t-online.de 40]

ahhh ... and i thought I´m mad now ;)

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Thanks for the suggestion' date=' I read through it and discussed it with some friends. Unfortunately, it just doesn't fit within the design pillars that I have set. I'm not designing this as a set of mechanics to enable or disable certain styles of gameplay, my main focus is on the emotional situation of the player.

I'm not "dealing" with the KoS issue. My aim is to add some levels of subtle fear and tension to an area that currently has none. Hence the heartbeat mechanism appears to be something that might do that. Your suggested mechanic, while quite possibly "dealing" with the KoS, does not meet my aims of adding subtlety and tension, I would even argue that it actually reduces it.

[/quote']

Thanks for the reply. I know more or less what are the design principles you are using here and I respect them a lot. An open world like this may not fit the proposed system, there's however some concerns to be taken in consideration. Whatever the future brings to dayZ, I really hope you care about the random lone survivors, those who start the game pretending it's a sandbox survival experience.

[DryGulch 32]

This idea would tear out a large part of the meta game, and it would be sorely missed. The 'leaky pipe' of too much KOS only needs duct tape for now. I'd wager that a lot of the random killing would disappear once there is :

1. Something to do besides murdering people once you have geared up and mastered survival. Idle hands do the devil's work. The game is still in Alpha and the content to try to thrive after the initial survival has not yet been implemented.

2. A solution to the frenetic coastal bean wars, that result from freshly spawned characters with nothing to lose. Although, personally, I don't see what the great difficulty with spawning and moving North is..I've only lost one of about 5 spawns on the coast because I got greedy and chanced Balotta.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Wow' date=' this must be the dumbest suggestion ever. I am not suprised you didnt name any mods you claimed to have made.

Lets think for a second what made this mod so successfull. What brought all those people here, what made them buy arma 2?

Its definetly NOT just the chance to rush to the beach and kill people for beans. There are plenty other games out there where you can just shoot people (and a lot of them are better optimised for it).

No, what brings people is the premise that this game is fucking HARD! That its harsh, unforgiving and that you can loose your shit in a second. THIS is the difference that sets this mod apart from the countless shooters out there. And as far as i know it may be the only difference. Left 4 dead has more zombis, less lag. Battlefield has instant vehicles, less lag...

So if you make this game easier (by introducing selective friendly fire, nerf guns for bandits, spawning magical shields for beginners, whatever..) would turn it into just another shooter.

People argue that it is a shooter already. Maybe so.. but its the harshest shooter out there. Where even a bean carrying noob with a macarov can headshot a fully equiped bad ass bandit with assault rifle.

[/quote']

You got it all wrong mate, except for the fact that my mods suck and no one wants to play them :)

[Keurk 4]

Thanks for the suggestion' date=' I read through it and discussed it with some friends. Unfortunately, it just doesn't fit within the design pillars that I have set. I'm not designing this as a set of mechanics to enable or disable certain styles of gameplay, my main focus is on the emotional situation of the player.

I'm not "dealing" with the KoS issue. My aim is to add some levels of subtle fear and tension to an area that currently has none. Hence the heartbeat mechanism appears to be something that might do that. Your suggested mechanic, while quite possibly "dealing" with the KoS, does not meet my aims of adding subtlety and tension, I would even argue that it actually reduces it.

[/quote']

wanna marry me?

i love you

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Again speaking as faildev, this mod needs less cock suckers. Really, while it's great that the main dev supports your vision of the mod somehow, there are here too many persons whose vision is... so 'scoped' (pun intended). The player loss from a few weeks ago when all the hype started is really noticeable, maybe it's all inside my head only but...

[miqueloz 33]

I still can barely get into servers at daytime because they're all full, so I don't notice much playerloss..

Also: almost 60,000 players in the last 24 hours. That's goddamn impressive when the total amount of unique players is 210,000. Especially since a crapload of people are stuck in the Debug Wilderness at the moment and aren't playing.

[LeYuno (DayZ) 51]

As a bandit you just keep getting positively reinforced for shooting others because you get loot from them and the satisfaction that you survived. Survivors don't get anything for not shooting another.

In order to give the player two choices you need to make it so that a positive rewards is attached for not shooting others; hence, positive humanity. I suggested something like a better % in chance of finding good loot or something similar. if you have low humanity this percentage drops, making it less likely that you will find good stuff.

it's just an example, you can change it to your liking.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

As a bandit you just keep getting positively reinforced for shooting others because you get loot from them and the satisfaction that you survived. Survivors don't get anything for not shooting another.

In order to give the player two choices you need to make it so that a positive rewards is attached for not shooting others; hence' date=' positive humanity. I suggested something like a better % in chance of finding good loot or something similar. if you have low humanity this percentage drops, making it less likely that you will find good stuff.

it's just an example, you can change it to your liking.

[/quote']

I always wanted natural rules to guide players, centered around the idea you may have good reasons to avoid unnecessary kills in real world, exactly like you said.

Well, rewarding loot based on player behavior isn't exactly natural, more like the opposite. A natural approach is exactly how it happens now, best killers get best loot.

The problem is, this mod isn't going to get players wanting to link their survival experience in a way they depend mutually on each other. Be careful with the chains you tie players, it may backfire.

So the proposed system, while it's based on pure game logic, allows you to play with similar freedom than is now, but makes possible some stranger-to-stranger collaboration that simply can't exist under current gameplay, and possibly under future variations.

[dissaifer 3]

Didn't read the whole thread, don't need to. You want players to have the ability to cheat the system. So, I can turn on "FF" walk into Cherno, Airfield's towns, being careful of the Z's, get some sweet gear walk out, again avoiding Z's. Turn "FF" off and then begin hunting players who don't have it on?

Also, if I shoot at someone and they have it on do I just waste ammo? This doesn't seem thought out.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Didn't read the whole thread' date=' don't need to. You want players to have the ability to cheat the system. So, I can turn on "FF" walk into Cherno, Airfield's towns, being careful of the Z's, get some sweet gear walk out, again avoiding Z's. Turn "FF" off and then begin hunting players who don't have it on?

Also, if I shoot at someone and they have it on do I just waste ammo? This doesn't seem thought out.

[/quote']

No. You just have to read the relevant parts:

Just add selective friendly fire. Once a player sets its status to "friendly", no damage to other friendly players will be possible. If they want to revert to default FF settings (damage anyone), change their skin again and a cool down timer will prevent them to damage friendlies for some minutes.

I probably didn't explained it too well but it's rather simple. A friendly enabled player can't damage other friendlies, period. Normal players can damage anyone. So you go somewhere, friendly enabled or not, and you may find a bullet to the head same as now.

There shouldn't be confusions about who is who since both states are tied to a skin.

This system just helps people who don't want to shoot on sight, or at least don't want to do it continuously. When you spot another friendly there's possible any interactions because both players know the encounter won't end in boom headshot! All of this however doesn't mean the world isn't cruel, other players only want to pretend, ambushes etc, etc.

[i wub pugs 16]

The solution to shoot on sight has and always will be for people to stop themselves from doing it.

Having a block of some sort is not in the spirit of the game. There are other mechanic that can be tweaked to possibly tone down the shoot on sight, but we aren't there yet.

The best solution has and always will be to travel at least with a partner or better still a group.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

The solution to shoot on sight has and always will be for people to stop themselves from doing it.

Having a block of some sort is not in the spirit of the game. There are other mechanic that can be tweaked to possibly tone down the shoot on sight' date=' but we aren't there yet.

The best solution has and always will be to travel at least with a partner or better still a group.

[/quote']

Some people won't ever accept reality, dayZ doesn't work like that and I certainly would like to see a system that allows full freedom and really changes current situation regarding trusting strangers.

Regarding your recommendations, if you want to play Russian roulette, do it. If you have someone to play along every time you want to play (now you contradict your first suggestion) go for it as well. Not everyone can.

[dissaifer 3]

Ok, I see what you are getting at but the problem is that the mechanic is too heavy handed and a little sloppy (don't get mad, I don't think it's a bad idea - hear me out).

You are trying to address the KoS (your words) and community degradation. Commendable.

The issue is you are allowing the directly player to control his outward appearance and identify to other players his intend, while also giving instant safety to those identified as friends.

Here are the problems, and how they don't exactly met the goals of rocket based on his response in this thread.

The goal is to provide players with interesting emotional states and unique experiences. Remember this it is important.

- Issue #1 - giving the player to control anything, beyond his actions, goes against any apocalyptic, and therefore, hopelessness feeling the player should have. The intent is to feel like there is no control. Any mechanic that allows that removes the feeling of hopelessness, even something simple like this goes against that goal.

- Issue #2 - Changing the character's appearance removes any doubts in other players minds about that player's intent. This actually directly relates to #1. The player sees that other player as friendly and can't be harmed so the fear is removed. When the fear is removed, the player is in control and the game is "safe."

- Issue #3 - The safety of not shooting a friendly, with the addition of a cool down between switching. Oddly, enough, this goes back to #1 as well. Safety = bad, but in addition to that, the player is now removed from the involvement of the actual game play and dealing with mechanics of the game... and that breaks immersion, and when immersion is broken no emotional state is created.

Now, quick tips. When suggesting new mechanics, the trick is to make them subtle to the player... so subtle in fact that they don't even notice them, but it changes their behavior.

[i wub pugs 16]

The solution to shoot on sight has and always will be for people to stop themselves from doing it.

Having a block of some sort is not in the spirit of the game. There are other mechanic that can be tweaked to possibly tone down the shoot on sight' date=' but we aren't there yet.

The best solution has and always will be to travel at least with a partner or better still a group.

[/quote']

Some people won't ever accept reality, dayZ doesn't work like that and I certainly would like to see a system that allows full freedom and really changes current situation regarding trusting strangers.

Regarding your recommendations, if you want to play Russian roulette, do it. If you have someone to play along every time you want to play (now you contradict your first suggestion) go for it as well. Not everyone can.

I didn't contradict myself...

... you could always partner up with that guy you know... you didn't shoot on sight.

I've done it, it's fun, it's what used to happen all the time. Maybe people are just getting bored and we're all lemmings that have been groomed to gravitate towards deathmatch.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Ok' date=' I see what you are getting at but the problem is that the mechanic is too heavy handed and a little sloppy (don't get mad, I don't think it's a bad idea - hear me out).

You are trying to address the KoS (your words) and community degradation. Commendable.

The issue is you are allowing the directly player to control his outward appearance and identify to other players his intend, while also giving instant safety to those identified as friends.

Here are the problems, and how they don't exactly met the goals of rocket based on his response in this thread.

The goal is to provide players with interesting emotional states and unique experiences. Remember this it is important.

- Issue #1 - giving the player to control anything, beyond his actions, goes against any apocalyptic, and therefore, hopelessness feeling the player should have. The intent is to feel like there is no control. Any mechanic that allows that removes the feeling of hopelessness, even something simple like this goes against that goal.

- Issue #2 - Changing the character's appearance removes any doubts in other players minds about that player's intent. This actually directly relates to #1. The player sees that other player as friendly and can't be harmed so the fear is removed. When the fear is removed, the player is in control and the game is "safe."

- Issue #3 - The safety of not shooting a friendly, with the addition of a cool down between switching. Oddly, enough, this goes back to #1 as well. Safety = bad, but in addition to that, the player is now removed from the involvement of the actual game play and dealing with mechanics of the game... and that breaks immersion, and when immersion is broken no emotional state is created.

Now, quick tips. When suggesting new mechanics, the trick is to make them subtle to the player... so subtle in fact that they don't even notice them, but it changes their behavior.

[/quote']

I appreciate your suggestions, that's the whole point of writing here.Your view seems rather biased to me though. I know what dayZ is about and that's why I would like it to change.

This mod is an anti-game like its creator said, and the total absence of rules make it chaotic in a bad way. A large amount of players don't want it like that. Yeah, it's fun the first few days, later the 'experience' becomes rather empty and void. A game that doesn't want to be a game is just a broken game.

I celebrate that some games want to be subtle, not forcing players to do certain things. However trusting strangers has become to me the key to make dayZ a much better game experience. When you can trust some random player, you can do a lot of new interactions, specially trading. A loot based economy requires trading, and this system allows it in the most simple and organic possible way.

Also, let me tell you something about safety. This system only allows safety in appearance. It's actually subtle in a way dayZ isn't and never will be regarding 'backstabbing'. Requires some teamplay to betray/ambush friendly players, so you need an ally to stay in normal status to attack any friendly player.

I know dayZ never will be like this, it's indeed a different game like Rocket more or less said. However some input about it won't do any harm :)

[dissaifer 3]

If you think my views are bias that is fine, you're entitled to that.

You did provide a good suggestion in there and that is trading. There is an incentive to make players not shoot each other on site. The problem is that there is too much loot, so why would I trade? And that is where my suggestion about making the survival much harder comes into play.

If you don't have much of anything and no one else does either, if you find say extra food, you know you don't need, and some guy has a map he doesn't want... then trading is possible. The more people trade the more likely they are to trust each other and we get back to having a non-everyone-KoS community. Too much loot, too easy to get... no need to trade.

see... subtle.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

If you think my views are bias that is fine' date=' you're entitled to that.

You did provide a good suggestion in there and that is trading. There is an incentive to make players not shoot each other on site. The problem is that there is too much loot, so why would I trade? And that is where my suggestion about making the survival much harder comes into play.

If you don't have much of anything and no one else does either, if you find say extra food, you know you don't need, and some guy has a map he doesn't want... then trading is possible. The more people trade the more likely they are to trust each other and we get back to having a non-everyone-KoS community. Too much loot, too easy to get... no need to trade.

see... subtle.

[/quote']

Now this is getting interesting, and I'll tell you why.

Your view seems probably biased (to me) because you ignore somehow the on-line player mentality. Yes, you do. You expect that some strangers get close to each other, and the one with better gear doesn't get killed immediately. Or some griefer doesn't kill them as soon they show up. This isn't the interesting part though.

The interesting part for me is the whole loot spawn system in dayZ could be different. It could require trading easily. It doesn't for obvious reasons, no one wants to play russian roulette, so better spread everything so players chances to find something good/useful are randomized.