Hacked Weapons: Should we take a more reasoned approach?

[Obsolescence 129]

1) No, I've never spawned or hacked in any weapons.

2) The only hacked weapons I've found up until this point I buried with the person I found them on.

3) I understand and agree with the very reasonable argument against certain guns for balance reasons (here's looking at you, AS50 TWS).

4) I do not condone, support, or engage in spawning in hacked weapons.

Some important points:

Not everyone knows the DayZ weapon list by heart. Sometimes people honestly pick up a hacked weapon and never even consider that it may not be a legitimate gun. The first time I saw a Makarov SD I thought it was legit until I came on here to ask. Similarly, the first time I found a M4 Holo SD, I consulted DayZDB only to see comments from other posters claiming that the wiki page was wrong and that the legit version is silenced (its not, FYI, the legit version is non-SD).

Admins are banning potentially innocent players for picking up 'hacked' weapons off corpses, which in many cases have no functional advantage over existing weapons. Shouldn't we focus on punishing hackers/spawners and people with balance-breaking weapons (M4 Holo SD w/GL or AS50 TWS), rather than punishing random people who may, until that point, be unaware that the gun they are carrying is hacked and will get them banned.

I propose adding in all weapons which are not functionally imbalanced or completely wierd for Chenarus (desert camo stuff), and implementing a server-side check which deletes weapons and ammo from this much smaller list of truely ban-worthy weapons. Then, finding their ban-worthy weapons erased, real hackers may attempt to spawn more in, providing additional evidence to be provided to DayZ staff for global banning.

For example:

The M9 SD has 15 9x19 rounds per clip. <---- Perfectly legit weapon, enjoy your stay on our servers.

The Makarov SD has 8 9x18 rounds per clip. <---- Drop the BANHAMMER and PURGE WITH FIRE.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Obsolescence

[erocker 87]

I don't understand why people who want to use these weapons just don't go play ArmA II? Yes, I would rather ban some idiot walking around with hacked weapons than consider otherwise. I don't do it though, because with this game it is around the bottom of my "give a damn" list.

[Hydra (DayZ) 472]

Rocket put the weapons that are in game in game for a reason, and vice versa.

It all comes down to balancing issues. We are currently filled to the brim with hacked and duped weaponry. The most common example is the AS50. It is supposed to be a very rare and regulated weapon, but due to hacks and dupes, it is easily one of the most common weapons in the game.

[Obsolescence 129]

I don't understand why people who want to use these weapons just don't go play ArmA II? Yes, I would rather ban some idiot walking around with hacked weapons than consider otherwise. I don't do it though, because with this game it is around the bottom of my "give a damn" list.

Is this the right forum? The forum for the Arma II mod called DayZ? Oh, why yes it is! I can see the name in the logo at the top of this page.

I'm asking, why it is a big deal to have functionally ordinary guns like the M40 sniper rifle or the Makarov SD in DayZ? Why can't they just be added into the mod or at least not be bannable just for carrying them (again, not referring to game breaking thermal weapons, etc.)?

If I only cared about using the weapons, and not using them in DayZ, I would have posted this on the Arma II forums, except there is no reason to post this on the Arma II forums because Arma II didn't purge 2/3rds of the weapons in its game from multiplayer.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Obsolescence

[Obsolescence 129]

Rocket put the weapons that are in game in game for a reason, and vice versa.

It all comes down to balancing issues. We are currently filled to the brim with hacked and duped weaponry. The most common example is the AS50. It is supposed to be a very rare and regulated weapon, but due to hacks and dupes, it is easily one of the most common weapons in the game.

Know that I'm not trying to be argumentative, but perhaps I'm just misunderstanding what the real issue is here. Can you explain what issues, balance or otherwise, including the Makarov SD would create? Or any of the 20 or so perfectly ordinary sniper rifles / variants? Or the pethora of assault rifles missing from the game?

I'm not arguing for all of the guns to be in the game, or even for any more to be added to the list (although that'd be nice), but I just don't see why we have to, as a community, take such a hard line approach to rather boring non-thermal, non-NV weapons which have no functional benefit over the current set of guns except that they aren't included in this arbitrary list?

If you add more guns, and some of those guns need special ammo, then the amount of ammo you find for your paticular gun becomes more rare making it more common to pick up a new gun because you ran out of ammo, which I not only think sounds like a lot more fun, but also seems more realistic, yeah?

Edited September 1, 2012 by Obsolescence

[SmashT 10907]

Generally it's for balance reasons, the AS50 TWS is a prime example, also there are hundreds of guns in ArmA, which ones are balanced and which ones aren't? I imagine a blanket ban would be a lot easier to enforce for the admins that do.

Edited September 1, 2012 by smasht_AU

[Tiercel 63]

Being a sarcastic bitch doesnt help your argument.

By your argument/logic, hacked in vehicles should be fine too? Because theyre available in ArmA?

The game is set in generic eastern bloc country 101 in (from what I can tell) late 90s-mid 00's, youre not going to be finding MURRICA FUCK YEAH military grade hardware lying around all over the place.

If anything, what this game needs is the number of military spec weapons reduced and more civillian weapons like hunting rifles and perhaps shotguns that dont suck.

[Obsolescence 129]

Generally it's for balance issues, the AS50 TWS is a prime example, also there are hundreds of guns in ArmA, which ones are balanced and which ones aren't? I imagine a blanket ban would be a lot easier to enforce for the admins that do.

I hope you'll revisit this thread cause I have a few questions:

First, isn't it still true that admins are NOT technically allowed to ban people for having hacked guns? Only for spawning them in, right?

Second, wouldn't it be easier for admins to enforce a ban on a shorter list of infringing items rather than longer list? The ban appeal section is chock-full of ban appeals because an admin confused or misread a legitimate item as a hacked one and banned for it.

Third, I agree that balance is a great reason for banning guns that are imbalanced (AS50 TWS), but what is the reason for banning guns that have no benefit over current ones (SEE BELOW)?

The M9 SD has 15 9x19 rounds per clip. <---- Perfectly legit weapon, enjoy your stay on our servers.

The Makarov SD has 8 9x18 rounds per clip. <---- Drop the BANHAMMER and PURGE WITH FIRE.

People get banned from servers because they are using a gun that has 7 fewer rounds per clip, but is otherwise identical except in wireframe/texture? And please don't say, "they get banned because those guns aren't in the game and so they obviously hacked them in." The issue isn't whether or not these guns in the mod are hacked in, the issue is why aren't these guns already in the mod?

[Ghosthits 8]

I think you are missing the point here. Sure, maybe the Makarov SD isnt a gamebreaker overpowered gun. What upsets the balance is the amount of hacked weapons brought into the game, it does nothing but flood the game with supposedly "RARE" items. The game is not intended to be a Run n' Gun shooter, but rather a zombie survival simulation with some military loot involved. When you see someone with say an MK 48 mod 0 in game, you should be scared, rather then looking at him through the thermal scope of an L85, with any number of sniper rifles in your pack and a full kit. now i just used mostly examples of hacked or duped items already in the game... add in the amount of items not in the LOOT TABLES to the game and chaos ensues. Now any noob that has never even made it to the northwest airfield is decked out in very rare or non existent items. Basically this game isnt intended to be a showcase of weapons, it is intended to be a showcase of survival... adding all the hacked/duped weapons and it becomes something entirely different. COD,CS,BF, but instead of a menu you have hacked camps.

[doom4mr 135]

What's the big deal about hacked in weapons?

hacked weapons

that is the big deal... its not about what weapon is it it about the weapons that in game (DayZ) and not.

Edited September 1, 2012 by DooM4MR

[Col. Kurtz (DayZ) 91]

I hope you'll revisit this thread cause I have a few questions:

First, isn't it still true that admins are NOT technically allowed to ban people for having hacked guns? Only for spawning them in, right?

Second, wouldn't it be easier for admins to enforce a ban on a shorter list of infringing items rather than longer list? The ban appeal section is chock-full of ban appeals because an admin confused or misread a legitimate item as a hacked one and banned for it.

Third, I agree that balance is a great reason for banning guns that are imbalanced (AS50 TWS), but what is the reason for banning guns that have no benefit over current ones (SEE BELOW)?

The M9 SD has 15 9x19 rounds per clip. <---- Perfectly legit weapon, enjoy your stay on our servers.

The Makarov SD has 8 9x18 rounds per clip. <---- Drop the BANHAMMER and PURGE WITH FIRE.

People get banned from servers because they are using a gun that has 7 fewer rounds per clip, but is otherwise identical except in wireframe/texture? And please don't say, "they get banned because those guns aren't in the game and so they obviously hacked them in." The issue isn't whether or not these guns in the mod are hacked in, the issue is why aren't these guns already in the mod?

You are obviously not getting the picture. The mod was made with specific weapons in mind. Any deviation from this is due to hacking = wrong. Regardless of what you think is right or wrong the rules are the rules.

[Obsolescence 129]

Being a sarcastic bitch doesnt help your argument.

The first reply told me to go use the weapons in the game Arma II. The OP is specifically concerning the use of these weapons in DayZ. Personally, to me his reply sounded like trolling. I apologize if I enjoyed writing my reply too much for your taste.

By your argument/logic, hacked in vehicles should be fine too? Because theyre available in ArmA?

To a degree, you are right, if a paticular vehicle is in Arma II and has no functional difference from a current legitimate vehicle, then I see no arguement to keep it out of the game except what I presume is a limit on the number of vehicles a server or the hive can handle/maintain.

The game is set in generic eastern bloc country 101 in (from what I can tell) late 90s-mid 00's, youre not going to be finding MURRICA FUCK YEAH military grade hardware lying around all over the place.

If anything, what this game needs is the number of military spec weapons reduced and more civillian weapons like hunting rifles and perhaps shotguns that dont suck.

I completely agree, which is why I think the AS50 is rediculous, outlandish, and unnecessary given that the M107 already fills this role but is properly loud. Furthermore, I support your point that the amount of military grade hardware in the game is absurd, and I would also prefer if the more rudimentary weapons were much more common. Also, why does the hunting rifle (CZ550) not spawn in hunting stands, but CCOs and M24s do?

[doomtrain 14]

Generally it's for balance reasons

You can no longer claim it is only that it WAS, when theres more high tie than low tier gear floating around.

Adding 50 tws then removing it later is a really really dumb idea, the majority of players wont use the forums and dont even know its banned and they are all over the maps on bodies and tents.

Adjusting the opening list of weapons is just such a massive no no, on the removal side(adding more is ok).

Im with op and believe all weapons should be spawned in from here as balance is no longer an issue and its crippling new players.

You cant just say its for balancing reasons then stick your head in the sand when the balance is gone due to unfixed bugs.

The best way to restore the balance is likely to just add a thermal scope loot in barracks which you can then apply to any gun you find with a suitable rail size in the same manner you apply a ghillie to your person, but then that would mean some coding oh nos:D

Im not saying the stand alone should be like this only that you need to make the alpha a new balance if you want new starters to play for more than an hour in which they get sniped 5 times then go buy bf.

[Obsolescence 129]

I think you are missing the point here. Sure, maybe the Makarov SD isnt a gamebreaker overpowered gun. What upsets the balance is the amount of hacked weapons brought into the game, it does nothing but flood the game with supposedly "RARE" items. The game is not intended to be a Run n' Gun shooter, but rather a zombie survival simulation with some military loot involved. When you see someone with say an MK 48 mod 0 in game, you should be scared, rather then looking at him through the thermal scope of an L85, with any number of sniper rifles in your pack and a full kit. now i just used mostly examples of hacked or duped items already in the game... add in the amount of items not in the LOOT TABLES to the game and chaos ensues. Now any noob that has never even made it to the northwest airfield is decked out in very rare or non existent items. Basically this game isnt intended to be a showcase of weapons, it is intended to be a showcase of survival... adding all the hacked/duped weapons and it becomes something entirely different. COD,CS,BF, but instead of a menu you have hacked camps.

You suggest that it is a problem to let people spawn in mass amounts of hacked weaponry, but where we part is when you seem to indicate that this is only an issue for hacked weaponry. I don't see how mass spawning in legit AS50s is any less threatening to the rarity factor of high end weapons, or the Call of Dutification, than mass spawning AWPs (which also appear to be 1-hit kill sniper rifles from what I can tell). In either case the player has a top end sniper rifle that kills in 1 hit and doesn't afraid of anything. Obviously this is a different problem entirely if they are spawning in AS50 TWS's or some other balance-breaking gun. A point I've addressed often and thoroughly at this point.

[Obsolescence 129]

You can no longer claim it is only that it WAS, when theres more high tie than low tier gear floating around.

Adding 50 tws then removing it later is a really really dumb idea, the majority of players wont use the forums and dont even know its banned and they are all over the maps on bodies and tents.

Adjusting the opening list of weapons is just such a massive no no, on the removal side(adding more is ok).

Im with op and believe all weapons should be spawned in from here as balance is no longer an issue and its crippling new players.

You cant just say its for balancing reasons then stick your head in the sand when the balance is gone due to unfixed bugs.

The best way to restore the balance is likely to just add a thermal scope loot in barracks which you can then apply to any gun you find with a suitable rail size in the same manner you apply a ghillie to your person, but then that would mean some coding oh nos:D

Im not saying the stand alone should be like this only that you need to make the alpha a new balance if you want new starters to play for more than an hour in which they get sniped 5 times then go buy bf.

I hope you realize I only think the guns that don't have any real impact on balance should be added (non NV, non thermal), and also not the crazy military guns all camo'd up for the desert which would just look silly on chenarus. However, there are still 30-40+ guns that are not only absent from the mod but are getting people banned from servers who might not know better if they didn't come check with the forums/wiki first.

[porkus_maximus 36]

It's pretty typical of basement dwelling admins to only see the world in extremes, black or white with absolutely no shades of grey in between. For example I've been banned from a server for using an m4 holo SD which I found on a corpse, at the time I didn't even know which guns were legit and which ones weren't but functionally it's no different from the m4 cco SD. However as far as mr. high and mighty admin was concerned, using a scripted weapon makes me no better than someone who nukes servers or teleports people into the ocean.

People seriously need to loosen their rectums when it comes to items in this game. As people are so fond of point out "THIS IS STILL AN ALPHA", your immersive gameplay experience is absolutely the LAST thing that anyone should be worrying about. There are 101 ways to lose your items in this game through absolutely NO fault of your own, so if someone wants to say "screw it" and script in some gear to goof around with or maybe spawn themselves a vehcile that functions no differently from any other vehicle in the mod It's not going to bother me one bit.

[Obsolescence 129]

It's pretty typical of basement dwelling admins to only see the world in extremes, black or white with absolutely no shades of grey in between. For example I've been banned from a server for using an m4 holo SD which I found on a corpse, at the time I didn't even know which guns were legit and which ones weren't but functionally it's no different from the m4 cco SD. However as far as mr. high and mighty admin was concerned, using a scripted weapon makes me no better than someone who nukes servers or teleports people into the ocean.

This is precisely the reason why Rocket made the rule that admins weren't allowed to ban for hacked weapons, and the main reason I made this thread. Not including perfectly legitimate guns in the game causes people to be banned for unknowingly using a gun they found on someone's body that may be no better than a legit gun already included in the loot tables.

so if someone wants to say "screw it" and script in some gear to goof around with or maybe spawn themselves a vehcile that functions no differently from any other vehicle in the mod It's not going to bother me one bit.

Yeah, I disagree with you on that one. Nobody should be spawning in any hacked guns, the issue is that once they are spawned in why are the admins/community punishing potentially innocent people for using guns they picked up from a corpse. HOW DARE THEY NOT KNOW THE FULL LIST OF WEAPONS IN DAYZ BY HEART. HOW... DARE... THEY...

Which points to THE LARGER PROBLEM, if they included most of the guns in the loot tables, then there would only be a handful of balance-breaking guns left to ban. Why not just implement a server-side query that searches the inventory of every player who joins and purges this smaller list of banned guns / ammo? If they join the server, find their hacked guns missing, and respawn their weapons then they just added evidence of their hacking to the server logs and now that admin can provide the proper proof of hacking and get them globally banned.

[jdz (DayZ) 238]

Not sure if OP is fucking retarded or just trying to troll...

[Col. Kurtz (DayZ) 91]

Not sure if OP is fucking retarded or just trying to troll...

My beans, have them.

[OrLoK 16182]

Hello there

OP I understand the essence of your point but you are missing the target by a wider margin.

Say a scripter inputs a MBT and I discover it. Is that legit to use? By the vague rules it is. But It's going to annoy a heck of a lot of players that have no defence from me that i can easily take out and grief.

The allowance to use scripted in weapons takes away from the inherent awfulness/evilness/stupidity/lazyness that is scripting and the vague rules unfortunately assist in this.

If I had a server, and anyone was caught using scripted in weapons, they would be asked to get rid of them and then banned if you didn't comply within a reasonable timeframe.

Lastly, again if I were a server owner, I would use Rockets Rules as a guideline rather than a god given set of rules.

Use common sense, it's a key thing IMHO.

If using common sense get me blacklisted then this isn't the game for me.

Rgds

LoK

[Obsolescence 129]

Not sure if OP is fucking retarded or just trying to troll...

The M9 SD has 15 9x19 rounds per clip. <---- Perfectly legit weapon, enjoy your stay on our servers.

The Makarov SD has 8 9x18 rounds per clip. <---- Drop the BANHAMMER and PURGE WITH FIRE.

If you can provide the logic and reason behind why it makes sense to ban someone from a server for using an 8 round 9mm silenced pistol they acquired from a dead player, but not someone using an otherwise identical 15 round 9mm silenced pistol they acquired from a dead player then I will merrily replace the OP with "I'M FUCKING RETARDED, AND JDZ PROVED IT TO ME!" in the largest font size possible and I will end this thread and never post on the topic of gun availability/hacks again.

The only reasonable, but inane, answer I will not accept as qualifying would be some equivalent to: "it's against the rules" / "Rocket said so."

[erocker 87]

Hacking shit into a game is generally against any "rules" for any game. It is common f*cking sense that hacking doesn't belong in the category of legitimate gameplay. Understand? What is being hacked in doesn't matter, it is the act of doing so. You are not the developer/artist/game maker and you do not have their idea/dream of what they want their creation to be. Nothing gives you or anyone the right to desecrate their work.

Edited September 1, 2012 by erocker

[Obsolescence 129]

Hello there

OP I understand the essence of your point but you are missing the target by a wider margin.

Say a scripter inputs a MBT and I discover it. Is that legit to use? By the vague rules it is. But It's going to annoy a heck of a lot of players that have no defence from me that i can easily take out and grief.

I know this thread is getting longer now, but I try to be very explicit that there are many weapons/vehicles which are far outside the bounds of what is already included in the game. Weapons outside the bounds of what already exists legitimately in the game would include, at the top of the list, Main Battle Tanks, along with thermal/nv weapons not already included (AS50 TWS). These weapons and.or vehicles should be dealt with more harshly than they are currently. However, many of the weapons in A2/OA are nearly identical or analogous to stuff we already have, but people are being banned from servers for having them. See the M9 SD vs Makarov SD comparison in the OP.

I added another item to my list at the top of the OP to also make it clear that I am not condoning or supporting hacking or spawning in weapons. I just don't see any reasonableness to the staff's and community's current approach of banning people for weapons that give them no real advantage over the current stock and that they might no be wholely aware are hacked in the first place.

If they included all reasonable and balanced guns from A2/OA in DayZ then the only weapons people would be getting banned for are the ones game-breaking enough to be worthy of it, and I would fully support the banning of people spawning or refusing to drop these imbalanced weapons.

[Obsolescence 129]

Hacking shit into a game is generally against any "rules" for any game. It is common f*cking sense that hacking doesn't belong in the category of legitimate gameplay. Understand? What is being hacked in doesn't matter, it is the act of doing so. You are not the developer/artist/game maker and you do not have their idea/dream of what they want their creation to be. Nothing gives you or anyone the right to desecrate their work.

1) No, I've never spawned or hacked in any weapons.

2) The only hacked weapons I've found up until this point I buried with the person I found them on.

3) I understand and agree with the very reasonable argument against certain guns for balance reasons (here's looking at you, AS50 TWS).

4) I do not condone, support, or engage in spawning in hacked weapons.

Please, see point #4, I added it just for you.

Furthermore, I am only questioning the reasonableness of punishing someone who picked up a Makarov SD from a player they killed in an identical manner to the horrible fate I'd prefer to impose upon someone gunning people down with an AS50 TWS.

The Makarov SD is by all measures a worse gun than the M9 SD, and yet admins are banning people for using it just as they might ban someone for using the AS50 TWS or a semi-auto grenade launcher. My main point with this thread is to question why should we treat people so harshly for having a gun that is functionally within the bounds of what already exists in the game, when we can't even be sure they spawned it in or are aware it is a hacked gun. Additionally, why not just include guns like the Mak SD in the game and then admins only have to worry about banning people with game-breaking imbalanced guns, which I agree should get people banned from servers.

[Col. Kurtz (DayZ) 91]

The Makarov SD is by all measures a worse gun than the M9 SD, and yet admins are banning people for using it just as they might ban someone for using the AS50 TWS or a semi-auto grenade launcher. My main point with this thread is to question why should we treat people so harshly for having a gun that is functionally within the bounds of what already exists in the game, when we can't even be sure they spawned it in or are aware it is a hacked gun. Additionally, why not just include guns like the Mak SD in the game and then admins only have to worry about banning people with game-breaking imbalanced guns, which I agree should get people banned from servers.

Because regardless of the hacked weapon being a game changer or not, using hacked weapons promotes hacking. So, admins ban anyone who even touches a hacked weapon (regardless of size) in order to discourage hackers and or the support of them.