Why does Rocket want us to have congenital insenssitivity?

[ptk (DayZ) 178]

I think that like, right before you pull the trigger a cartoony looking angel and devil appear on either side of your screen and the angel says,

"Oh No! Don't do it you wicked man you!"

meanwhile the devil says,

"OMGZORS! That kid's backpack looks BEEFY as HELLZ!"

and like, they would continue to argue to the point where your game would start to get a headache and then scream at them to stop over an open mic...

just like in real life.

wait what? no on else here does this?...

WTF!

wish I had a toggle cmd in real life...

[That Guy (DayZ) 46]

I don't think the ui should be removed but should be like everyone else said, an option.

Nightmare servers: No UI, no ammo count, basically no anything, zombie aggro 100% (basically if a person could see you in RL the zombie can too), in game sounds are a must.

Hard servers: UI included, No ammo count, zombie aggro 75% (a little more then the normal amount) and the regular options for hard servers

Medium: UI included, ammo count included, CH, no tracers No nameplates. zombie aggro 60% (normal amount)

Easy servers: UI, ammo count, CH, and everything else included zombie aggro 40% ( it's night time for zombies all the time)

And of course the servers would be able to add different elements of each difficulty to create their custom one.

[Heiduk 265]

Ok, let me make sure I have this straight, video games can give us information through two senses, sight and sound. Yet the two HUD indicators Rocket says he doesn't think they can remove are the two indicators that directly duplicate those senses, noise and visibility.

I won't be able to tell that I'm bleeding without spending 30 seconds visually inspecting my avatar for blood spots but I can instantly tell that I'm making exactly 2 bars of noise. That isn't immersion breaking at all.

[venthos 605]

It takes you 30 seconds to see a big spraying red fountain of pixels spewing from your character? Wow dude, yeah you're at a disadvantage.

But Rocket agrees with you about the audible/visible meters still being there being immersion breaking. He WANTS to remove them and indicate them in-game without a UI. He just hasn't come up with a solution YET. But, it's his goal as well.

[GhillieBandit 24]

I have mixed feeling regarding this change. I've heard Rocket talking about this idea a lot. I understand it might add more immersion - a.k.a I don't have a hunger/water system in real life, however, you can't really tell if your character is hungry with no indicators unless you could actually feel the nervous system of your character., I do enjoy the indicators. Ideally, I think it should be something that you can toggle. However, it is Rocket's game and if that's the way Rocket wants to take the food and hunger system - I'll be happy.

[jetao2008@hotmail.com 175]

I'm hungry almost all the time which means i wouldn't survive the zombie apocalypse, since it would be impossible for me to hide from humans and zombies due to the amount of noise in my belly.

That's very sad, i hope i die before this happens.

Back on topic, if the temperature icon gets fixed, i wouldn't mind taking the number out of the debug window.

Zombie kills and player kills, i don't think that's necessary either, since we have the hero/bandit skins to keep track of our "behavior" in-game (but of course, a lot of people like that data).

Maybe removing the debug window and creating a new window that needs a hotkey to be accessed with a lot of information regarding player and zombie kills, amount of time played, etc.

[venthos 605]

The "just have it toggle" idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of what DayZ is. The game is all about even footing. No one is inherently advantaged/disadvantaged from any other player as a result of game mechanics. By doing this, you would be saying "If you want, you can make the game harder for yourself and toggle off the UI. But others can just keep it". In the interest of survival, you'd never turn off the UI because you'd be at a disadvantage to those who don't turn it off.

Whatever solution occurs, it must be enforced across the board. Starting these toggle situations is just a slippery slope of bending to peoples' desires vs. letting Rocket exercise his vision, which would really destroy the charm of the game and turn it into FischerPriceZ.

[Max Planck 7174]

I'm hungry almost all the time which means i wouldn't survive the zombie apocalypse, since it would be impossible for me to hide from humans and zombies due to the amount of noise in my belly.

Gut worms man, they are mean.

Maybe removing the debug window and creating a new window that needs a hotkey to be accessed with a lot of information regarding player and zombie kills, amount of time played, etc.

How about if the UI became visible if you held down the spacebar? Unless they are reserving it for bunny hopping of course.

The "just have it toggle" idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of what DayZ is. The game is all about even footing. No one is inherently advantaged/disadvantaged from any other player as a result of game mechanics. By doing this, you would be saying "If you want, you can make the game harder for yourself and toggle off the UI. But others can just keep it". In the interest of survival, you'd never turn off the UI because you'd be at a disadvantage to those who don't turn it off.

If I could toggle it, I would have it off most of the time and just have a look-see every once in a while. It's not like there is any crucial necessary-here-and-now information on the UI.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Max Planck

[{CQF} PFC Demyan 43]

The more realistic and hardcore the terrier. Fuck the status quo of gaming. Bring it on. Immerse me.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Red Statham

[zak757 146]

Immersion =/= Difficulty

[venthos 605]

Not necessarily, but generally speaking when you're talking about a more "authentic" and/or "realistic" game, it usually (but not always) means that it is much less forgiving as a result.

In the case of DayZ, further immersion is generally going to mean increased difficulty. I'm all for it. Even if you want to say they are always independent of each other, bring on more immersion and more difficulty. RAMP IT UP, ROCKET! :D

[ptk (DayZ) 178]

The "just have it toggle" idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of what DayZ is. The game is all about even footing. No one is inherently advantaged/disadvantaged from any other player as a result of game mechanics. By doing this, you would be saying "If you want, you can make the game harder for yourself and toggle off the UI. But others can just keep it". In the interest of survival, you'd never turn off the UI because you'd be at a disadvantage to those who don't turn it off.

Whatever solution occurs, it must be enforced across the board. Starting these toggle situations is just a slippery slope of bending to peoples' desires vs. letting Rocket exercise his vision, which would really destroy the charm of the game and turn it into FischerPriceZ.

I see what you're saying, and personally it wouldn't bother me, but there comes a point where limiting a players choice based on how the dev envisions the game, equals limiting the number of players playing your game. art is a circle of artists and fans/art lovers/groupies etc... you can't have one without the other, especially if you want to sell it. I'm sure dayz will do well regardless, but why would you want to intentionally limit your fanbase???

it's just like pvp vs pve or 1st person vs 3rd person. no one side is right, and to imply so means that the way other people play in this sandbox isnt viable.

is this game about having an even footing with everyone else? I don't think that was ever part of the plan. I was led to believe that dayz life was unfair and cruel and that once in a while, you just might get lucky and survive a few days. some people might enjoy the extra challenge toggling a hud off would have, but I'm not going to dictate how others should play.

so in the end and as in other threads, perhaps toggle options with a way to overide these by means of additional serverside options would be the best of everything. that way, everyone can enjoy it their own way without hindering others playstyle.

otherwise, we might as well start persecuting jewish people all over again, or better yet, the spanish inquisition. Anyone?

[Inception. 9443]

Man, you guys are angry.

SillySil voiced a concern, we talked about it a little, then all of a sudden the thread explodes in aggressive one-liners and all caps.

Wanting less UI to intrude on the game does not make someone a bad person who needs to get shouted at.

I think a UI toggle would be best, it works in the Stalker games.

A toggle option would indeed be the best.

[Gogster (DayZ) 626]

I eat and drink far less than my character.

But then I rarely get attacked by zombies either.

[Max Planck 7174]

I eat and drink far less than my character.

But then I rarely get attacked by zombies either.

For me it's the direct opposite.

[{CQF} PFC Demyan 43]

One thin that everyone needs to bear in mind is that these features, if implemented, aren't going to be a one chance "you missed the queue and now you are fucked" kind of thing. Growing hungry you may even see a text prompt stating, "you feel faint / famished / thirsty" etc that may be accompanied by different queues of varying frequency and intensity. For example, if you are slightly hungry, you may find that your aim is very slightly off, or that your character may pick up an empty can the next time you find one to look inside in hopes for a morsel. If starving, your sprint may last only a handful of seconds before you start to stagger, and that it you must actually sit down and rest chronically if you are emaciated. Your character may become visibly gaunter, notable in first and third person, and you may find that you cannot temporarily take your eyes from another morehealthy looking player (cannibalism eminent...)

Whatever the case, true DayZ fans should know by now that Rocket, while busy, is bloody brilliant and his choices are both intuitive and made with the best evolutions.for DayZ in mind. He will try and test something before implementation in he standalone. He will listen, as he always does, and note players' reactions to new features during the new alpha, and if they are overly flawed he will remove them either permanently or until they are fixed. Have faith. He may not be the most experienced game producer but his track record for choosing what is best has been near flawless.

Before anyone troll about hacking being possible or any of the other shit that loves to get thrown into flame wars, Alpha Mod before he had any control over the game's engine or source code. Let him show you what he is made of come November before you start making negative presumptions :-)

[Heiduk 265]

It takes you 30 seconds to see a big spraying red fountain of pixels spewing from your character?

I don't play on 3rd person servers. Ok 30 seconds might be an exaggeration, but the point is assessing damage goes from being an almost unconscious action of glancing at the HUD to the explicit action of inspecting myself to see if I'm bleeding. Neither option is terribly realistic, but I would argue the first is closer to how most people experience the real world, i.e. we can assess pretty quickly if we have sustained a potentially serious injury or not. Note I'll be happy to see the debug monitor go as there is no reason I should be able to determine my health to 5 significant digits.

But Rocket agrees with you about the audible/visible meters still being there being immersion breaking. He WANTS to remove them and indicate them in-game without a UI. He just hasn't come up with a solution YET.

I guess I don't see what makes this a hard problem. Is the player moving quietly? Play quiet movement noises. Is the player making noise? Play loud movement noises. Do we really need a bar graph to tell us exactly how much more visible we are while standing up in a parking lot compared to lying down in the grass?

Remove both indicators and adjust the volume of movement noises, problem solved.

The current, blood, temp, food, and drink icons provide a lot of information in an unobtrusive, relatively compact way. Maybe they could come up with audio and visual queues that can convey all of this information in an intuitive, unambiguous, way but it seems like a hard problem. I find it difficult to imagine a system that wouldn't lead to inauthentic and immersion breaking guessing games along the lines of: "My aim is shaky. Is that because I just ran 5 km or because I haven't eaten in half an hour?"

[Bat (DayZ) 230]

I am for trying no HUD at all, see how it's playing, because, you know, it could work really well ! Also having to check your body to find injuries, using the alt button, would be awesome.

Imagine you're not sure if you took a bullet or not, and then you look down to your body only to see this huge open wound bleeding and all with hi res textures! that would be cool !

[nyk_nunya 40]

Having the ability to toggle, while one takes away some immersion, fits with Rocket's overall intention of "Playing it your way." Anything done that limits that, like skins that are not your choice to wear, for instance, seem goofy and counter intuitive to what Rocket had intended.

[{CQF} PFC Demyan 43]

one thing alot of people don't realize in its full capacity is that being shot at, especially incrdibly close shots, is terrifying, disorienting and shicking to ANYONE that has never been in a firefight. you grt tremors, your eyeballs shake in hour sockets. you have so much adrenaline coursing through your body that sometimes it is truly difficult to immediately ascertain if you are wounded and where. in fact, I would like to see adrenaline implemented. I think it's perfect for DayZ, and would be truly gripping without a UI for it

[SillySil 295]

I have mixed feeling regarding this change. I've heard Rocket talking about this idea a lot. I understand it might add more immersion - a.k.a I don't have a hunger/water system in real life, however, you can't really tell if your character is hungry with no indicators unless you could actually feel the nervous system of your character., I do enjoy the indicators. Ideally, I think it should be something that you can toggle. However, it is Rocket's game and if that's the way Rocket wants to take the food and hunger system - I'll be happy.

Except you do have hunger/thirst indicators in real life. You just can't see them in the corner of your vision, you feel them instead.

[ptk (DayZ) 178]

one thing alot of people don't realize in its full capacity is that being shot at, especially incrdibly close shots, is terrifying, disorienting and shicking to ANYONE that has never been in a firefight. you grt tremors, your eyeballs shake in hour sockets. you have so much adrenaline coursing through your body that sometimes it is truly difficult to immediately ascertain if you are wounded and where. in fact, I would like to see adrenaline implemented. I think it's perfect for DayZ, and would be truly gripping without a UI for it

one thing alot of people don't realize in its full capacity is that being shot at, especially incrdibly close shots, is terrifying, disorienting and shicking to ANYONE that has never been in a firefight. you grt tremors, your eyeballs shake in hour sockets. you have so much adrenaline coursing through your body that sometimes it is truly difficult to immediately ascertain if you are wounded and where. in fact, I would like to see adrenaline implemented. I think it's perfect for DayZ, and would be truly gripping without a UI for it

I've been in several close calls and firefights and I can never recall a time where my eyeballs shake in my sockets, to include the time mortar rounds were blowing up exceedingly close to where I was taking a shit lol.

the idea of adrenaline sounds interesting, albiet you can never really tell how someone will react in close combat. I've seen losers turn into heroes and warriors wet their pants. I've seen privates returning fire calm and collected while butterbars are panicking over coms.

looking at other survivor's stories that pop up here and there, I would have to say that there might be enough adrenaline from the individual players as is lol.

plenty of players posting about suspenseful firefights and scary moments in dayz, so it could be said that the adrenaline is there already, courtesy of the player reacting to the game rather than the character reacting to the environment.

[{CQF} PFC Demyan 43]

true, but each character is unique and it is because of that I feel that the. characyer itself reacting situationally, not to the environment (though also important) would have great merit in DayZ. While adrenaline is there for players, no doubt, converting that through twotching the mouse and keyboard hardly does it justice.

[Kraorr 6]

I've been in several close calls and firefights and I can never recall a time where my eyeballs shake in my sockets, to include the time mortar rounds were blowing up exceedingly close to where I was taking a shit lol.

the idea of adrenaline sounds interesting, albiet you can never really tell how someone will react in close combat. I've seen losers turn into heroes and warriors wet their pants. I've seen privates returning fire calm and collected while butterbars are panicking over coms.

looking at other survivor's stories that pop up here and there, I would have to say that there might be enough adrenaline from the individual players as is lol.

plenty of players posting about suspenseful firefights and scary moments in dayz, so it could be said that the adrenaline is there already, courtesy of the player reacting to the game rather than the character reacting to the environment.

What you state about player reacting to the game is prevalent to the current player trends of playing merely to shoot, not caring if taken out or not once they have the "play to survive" mind becoming numb when they know that if their character dies they will only need to go back to a private server that is connected to the hive thriving with vehicles/tents to instantly get all the gear they want back and hop back into a new server, rinse repeat.

Again given the current state of the game, sticking around too long in cherno/elektro means dealing with people positioning themselves to gun down fresh spawns with high end warfare gear - as if after all some kind of legit longer term effort you would go all the way back to the beginning parts of the map to use the most nasty military items accessible in DayZ to shoot the newcomers/recently dead players? In all logic such a player wouldn't remotely want to travel all the way back there with such gear. The rest can be poorly equipped compared to you in that spot, doesn't mean you're immortal. It would also mean upsetting your chances of staying alive for your new parcour, provided you don't switch servers. The shit is still there though and will upset the rest of the player's situation in there, getting shot by those types of weapons in areas where someone carrying it shouldn't even logically decide to be there.

The play to survive right now has been ditched by the window because of this, (including the script/hack users largely participating in this) as those kind of players leave dead bodies with the sweetest loot possible in the starter areas and upsetting how the areas should be tactically and strategically evaluated as you progress through the different hotspots. I mean, for the guy that doesn't have any kind of "help" like those, why even try to go elsewhere than cherno/elektro? All you need - no - you could find anything, even the sweet loot by simply staying there. You'll spend longer time there so you're likely to die there. You might not slip out of it either because the big guns are hidden on the outskirts of those cities, letting nothing get out alive... You know... "what happens in cherno/elektro... stays in cherno/elektro" or "the only way to leave cherno/elektro is in a bodybag".

The quotes are exagerative, yet awfully close to how DayZ is played. If not it's "then go to stary or straight to NWAF" or "go on edges of the map until you find tents with top gear - don't save state after picking stuff or the next time you go there again once the server restarts you won't be able to pick what you took again"... Then what? Yeah the guys go back down in cherno/elektro. Probably because of the easy gearing up and... the only unconscious reaction left for the bitter ones out there, give some payback or go psychotrigger on anyone because you had to go through that. All of the reactions have been twisted / became a pejorative. "LOL kill or be killed man, don't be a pussy", "Dude don't play try to survive as long as possible, it's stupid and pointless" etc.

However the only idea I like about giving more visual and sound cues is not for the player seeing his own character do it, but for me, as the other player witnessing his current health state. This is both interesting for the ill-intended player or the kind one. If this is really meant to happen, I think we can say that DayZ is meant to have every sign in game to leave ambiguity and rough estimations as a part of the gameplay. You see a survivor/hero/bandit. You have a possible idea of how he might behave, but nothing is certain. You see someone moaning, it might be thirst, the beginning, end or inbetween part of some sickness (different types of illness in the future?). It could be hunger. You're not too sure. You have an idea but you'd have to get closer to get a better idea. Things like that.

As of suppressing entirely the UI, I guess we'll see. Personally I don't mind the need to evaluate, as long as there isn't anything with too many colors changing to give you that rough feel of how your character is doing since I have some color blind issues: irl handicapped players are always tough to think about, because it is way harder than some could think it is to actually realize how things are harder for them. It could also be someone inflicted with some partial paralysis: I actually played with someone on another fps and he later told me about having complications due to his "hemiplegic" issues (dunno if it's said that way in english, kinda frenglished it, hehe) after I was getting a bit upset on what seemed to be reaction timing issues ingame after being his spotter/backup for months - I tried finding a way to propose a different keybinding set to optimize as much as possible his physical limitations that were having too much negative impacts for him ingame (he has about... 2 fingers "and a half" that are numb / almost entirely unresponsive for his left hand, the one he used for the keyboard. He actually liked using a joystick instead, as his wrists are not impacted by his handicap!).

Ok that one is really stretching the offtopic but I found the deaf argument interesting and wanted to add things to it. But how about the different autisms and degrees of them? For those who have a limited awareness of body language, by how much would they be oblivious to it in order to identify/estimate the health state of their character? Maybe by exagerating the expressions?

To go back to the colorblind example, even the UI right now gives me issues about evaluating of how much more time/running distance I can cover before it starts blinking. I see it green/greyish when my character is fresh, then it seems to become red at some point - the slow transition from green to red for me is nearly impossible to see properly until I stop, stare, focus and strain my eyes. At least, the essential moment of emergency is clear, thanks to the blinking part. Should it not blink, I probably would have hunger/thirst issues pop in my face like a bad surprise on a regular basis. Ironic that a UI-less interface, for my case, might end up being a more consistent and accurate way for me to know what's up with my character.

Sorry for the wall-text, it's a bad habit. Including the drifting off. My last joker is that it's getting really late. Pillow has my beans. Bye.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Kraorr

[{CQF} PFC Demyan 43]

I do not mean this in any offensive capacity, but games like DayZ that are made deliberately to be impressive, hardcore and pulse pounding cannot cater to many individuals with disabilities if they plan to retain what makes them so visceral and gripping. Working around such disabilities is not only spreading resources that are critical to the game's development thin, it is also difficult to do completely because it takes an acute understanding of HOW the disability manifests itself and in the instance of autism, it can change quite a bit from person to person. It would be much like trying to make an FPS for some that is epileptic, and trying to find the middle line