Humanity

[cewinstherace 2]

*** MAJOR THREAD REVISION - SEE BELOW ***

As I listened to SideStrafe's interview with Rocket (

) I found myself thinking about ways in which the game could encourage behavior which more closely mirrored the real world.

If I were alone on an island the amount of energy required to gather a meal which sustained my existence would be considerably greater than if I were to live in a large city. On the island, and alone, I only benefit from the energy I produce. Whereas in the large city folks all around me are working day and night to achieve success in one form or another. Because of my proximity to their efforts I am able to spend less time focusing on where my next meal is coming from and more time focusing my efforts on other goals.

Goals

Provide a series of rewards which, if unlocked, improve players ability to survive. Provide, voluntary, mechanism for promoting cooperation beyond mere survival.

Reward Examples

- Bandage wounds more efficiently

- Improve weapon skill (based on specialization)

- Improve ability to convert ammo from one weapon type to another

- Harvest more meat per animal kill

- Improve endurance (more efficiently use food and water)

- Improve map reading (adds additional meta data to maps

- Mechanics skills (keep vehicles alive longer)

- Operate complex vehicles (aircraft)

- Generate power

- Reinforce structures

- etc..

Unlocking Rewards

All loot collectable via the world of DayZ has an associated value. Players have the option to either convert an item, directly, into base-skill or use such in the form of support to another player. Both actions produce the same result. The value of the item is added to the players base-skill. Via the skill menu players will have the option of unlocking skills when minimum thresholds, based on a players base-skill value, are met.

Earning Base-skill

1) Bob the bandit loots an AK off an unsuspecting bambi. Bob, with an assault rifle already in his pack, accesses his experience menu in order to convert the AK into additional base-skill.

2) Sam the survivor has a friend, Frank, whose just been mauled by a horde of agro'd Zeds. Sam quickly dispatches the Zeds with his silenced pistol, apply's a bandage, epiepen, morphine and a blood bag. The value of the items applied are immediately added to Sam's base-skill. Now Frank is also out of ammo. Sam has extra AK ammo in his pack. Accessing the skill menu Sam places 3 mags in Franks pack. Note: assets, once transfered via the skill menu, no longer provide an increase to base-skill if transferred a second time.

3) Once learned, a skill can be taught to others. Sam having taken the time to unlock the 'Improve weapon skill' accesses Frank's skill menu in order to teach Frank how to better use his AK to ensure the Zeds don't continue to own his bambi tail.

Edited September 18, 2012 by cewinstherace

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Get a friend > Dupe supplies > Profit

I say no. DayZ shouldn't become another MMORPG, with FPS elements.

[cewinstherace 2]

DayZ attempts to model realism in a fictitious world. Shouldn't the game encourage behavior which makes folks in the real world successful?

I don't feel turning ones humanity into a means of enabling access/opportunity turns DayZ into 'another' MMORPG. Rather a proper development of ones humanity score, I believe, is the mechanic required to bring the game within balance.

What motivates action in DayZ? If such a world were real, would you care of nothing more than what you could amass in a given day? Wouldn't you care about tomorrow, next week, next year? To suggest otherwise would be to ignore mans history.

As I defined, building your Humanity score isn't required for success. Just as in the real world you have the option to choose your path. The bandit's path, void of humanity, is still capable of opening doors. Opportunity, in such a case, is earned through the trade of goods acquired in his travels.

The individual who roams the world alone scratching out his way, the bandit who preys upon the unsuspecting and those with their eye on re-claiming humanity-lost all have paths to explore in such a world. The mechanic I suggest makes such possible.

Edited August 23, 2012 by cewinstherace

[00dlez 22]

No.

Humanity should represent a way to add a challenge that the otherwise simple life of "camp and shoot everything that moves" currently does not provide.

Bandits/murderers should not be barred from in game content as a result of their chosen play style.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

DayZ attempts to model realism in a fictitious world. Shouldn't the game encourage behavior which makes folks in the real world successful?

I don't feel turning ones humanity into a means of enabling access/opportunity turns DayZ into 'another' MMORPG. Rather a proper development of ones humanity score, I believe, is the mechanic required to bring the game within balance.

What motivates action in DayZ? If such a world were real, would you care of nothing more than what you could amass in a given day? Wouldn't you care about tomorrow, next week, next year? To suggest otherwise would be to ignore mans history.

As I defined, building your Humanity score isn't required for success. Just as in the real world you have the option to choose your path. The bandit's path, void of humanity, is still capable of opening doors. Opportunity, in such a case, is earned through the trade of goods acquired in his travels.

The individual who roams the world alone scratching out his way, the bandit who preys upon the unsuspecting and those with their eye on re-claiming humanity-lost all have paths to explore in such a world. The mechanic I suggest makes such possible.

You want to reward good behaviour, in society this exhists because society as a whole wants to discourage "bad" or a-typical behaviour, it upsets the rest of society. In a post SHTF scenario there is no society, and there is no one there to enforce anything other than yourself. Your advocating a fake currency that IMO has no place in the scenario, doing what is "right" or increasing humanity as you say should be the hard path, its the way it is and why it is viewed as a virtue that people walk that path. If it was easy or rewarded at the same rate as people doing what is easy then it would not be a valued archatype.

If you want to trade with people fine, I want the oppertunity to take their and your's shit, your system does not recagnize or account for this. AI/NPC disrupt the game because they and their items must be protected or they will be farmed like any other loot spawn. Not allowing players to combat them further removes immersion.

I am all for giving players the options to rebuild society and reclaim the map, I just think that people should be able to do it in multiple ways. There may be communes where everyone gets along and pitches in for the mutual good of the group... (right) but more than likely post SHTF societies will form like those of early man. People will be forced to follow the will of the few becaues they are stronger/better and the weak listen because they will have a chance compared to being alone against a very harsh world.

Once players have the option to do bigger things and AltF4 is removed people won't shoot noobs/unarmed people they will simply make them slaves that work in their labor camps on whatever project they're doing. Can't wait for that QQ...

Edited August 23, 2012 by xXI Mr Two IXx

[cewinstherace 2]

I believe you and I, 00dlez, are closer in agreement than you suggest.

Just as in the real world, the paths to opportunity are varied. The bandit, lone wolf and those looking to reclaim humanity-lost, provided the mechanic I suggest, would all have access to the same set of opportunities. What differs is the amount of energy required to enable such.

The lone wolf, scratching his way through the world, would in time amass the goods necessary to exchange. The bandit would do the same through plundering his fellow survivors. Those looking to reclaim humanity-lost would do so by way of the Humanity score.

Edited August 23, 2012 by cewinstherace

[cewinstherace 2]

doing what is "right" or increasing humanity as you say should be the hard path, its the way it is and why it is viewed as a virtue that people walk that path. If it was easy or rewarded at the same rate as people doing what is easy then it would not be a valued archetype.

Well said. Perhaps my altruism was showing through...

The bandit chooses the quickest path at the cost of his morals. The lone wolf's lack of belief in anything drives him to seek his own rewards at his own pace. And those looking to reclaim humanity-lost have the most difficult path and arguably the most rewarding...

Today, in the real world, we benefit from the efforts of those who came before us. So that, perhaps the relavant virtue you suggest plays more of a part during the building phase. Meaning, I could imagine the difficulty of building a group. Base of operations, etc.. Once built, however, my new community filled with like minded folks, all supporting each other, would accelerate my ability to bump my Humanity score and thus open the doors to opportunity that much faster.

[00dlez 22]

I believe you and I, 00dlez, are closer in agreement than you suggest.

Just as in the real world, the paths to opportunity are varied. The bandit, lone wolf and those looking to reclaim humanity-lost, provided the mechanic I suggest, would all have access to the same set of opportunities. What differs is the amount of energy required to enable such.

The lone wolf, scratching his way through the world, would in time amass the goods necessary to exchange. The bandit would do the same through plundering his fellow survivors. Those looking to reclaim humanity-lost would do so by way of the Humanity score.

I don't think we are, as I don't think that any level of "You can't do X until you have Y items or Z humanity" isn't going to fly.

Once players have the option to do bigger things and AltF4 is removed people won't shoot noobs/unarmed people they will simply make them slaves that work in their labor camps on whatever project they're doing. Can't wait for that QQ...

No, they will try have this level of control, but people will just play on a different server. If every server devolves into this, people will just find a different game. While I agree that in some real scenario, there isn't an option to just leave, but this is a game. Call them bitches, pussys, sore losers, or whatever, but in the end you'll be left alone on your server, king of a pile of loot and no one to play with like a rich kid with no friends.

Edited August 23, 2012 by 00dlez

[xximrtwoixx 104]

The bandit chooses the quickest path at the cost of his morals. The lone wolf's lack of belief in anything drives him to seek his own rewards at his own pace. And those looking to reclaim humanity-lost have the most difficult path and arguably the most rewarding...

Today, in the real world, we benefit from the efforts of those who came before us. So that, perhaps the relavant virtue you suggest plays more of a part during the building phase. Meaning, I could imagine the difficulty of building a group. Base of operations, etc.. Once built, however, my new community filled with like minded folks, all supporting each other, would accelerate my ability to bump my Humanity score and thus open the doors to opportunity that much faster.

My point was that anyone should be able to accomplish whatever they want, how they do so is up to them, and no path should be given extra weight through built in mechancis in an attempt to "balance" the system. We all have access to the same content, its up to the players to use the content the way they want to get to where they want. I agree that holding on to your humanity would be the most rewarding path, but thats because it should be the most difficult. I think this concept can be found in any form of media that deals with the break down of society, and I at least think its the way it should be in DayZ. No cookies for good little boys, if you want to be a white knight fine, but you should realize why your one of the few on that path.

I do think once players are able to build more stable structures and ghosting/altf4 are removed/addressed any friendly communities will draw tons of attention both from friendly and bandits.

No, they will try have this level of control, but people will just play on a different server. If every server devolves into this, people will just find a different game. While I agree that in some real scenario, there isn't an option to just leave, but this is a game. Call them bitches, pussys, sore losers, or whatever, but in the end you'll be left alone on your server, king of a pile of loot and no one to play with like a rich kid with no friends.

I completly agree, thats why no other games feature the mixture of content that DayZ does. Perma death, open sandbox, full pvp, realisitic damage, etc. the majority of gamers can't handle these factors because it forces them to reliaze that they can't/won't win. This is why we have the crazy PVP/hacking we do, people can't handle investing in their character when it can all be taken away through their own actions or the whim of another player.

This is the biggest design challenge for DayZ, IMO I want no escape, single EVE style servers where everyone is forced to endure the same horrible experiance. I doubt it ever gets there though because most people would quit once they realized they aren't 100% in control and can't escape the evil shit other people want to do to them.

This is why altF4 will never really be fixed, if you listen to recent interviews rocket has talked about doing cool offs, but not log out timers. If people can't escape they freak out, even if they die after logging back in they still didn't lose as bad as if they died after being shot, they still got to give a last F U to the killer by ensuring they don't get their gear.

This is also why there will never be intrinsic value to a player character, ie skills or things that aren't easily replaced. This would add alot to the game IMO, and I think its the only thing that could encourage random grouping, otherwise you can just get what you need yourself and don't need anyone else. It would incrase the butt hurt to much though so it will never make it IG.

Pussy's are ruining this apocalypse sim

[Crabflesh 1]

I am sort of the opinion that banditry would logically be the most rewarding path. After all, in a SHTF scenario, there would be no reason to uphold any of the old world moral standards until some sort of police regulation could be formed. There's really no reward for 'humanity' in a society without rules, and if you go out of your way to be helpful, people will justifiably be suspicious of you. From there, you are liable to get shot. In the real world, initially, people would probably initially avoid each other, still holding on to old world morals, but unsure that others feel the same way. However, in Dayz, since there is no real penalty for death(e.g. your character dies, you die also), along with the whole internet anonymity thing, there is nothing stopping people from going on a killing rampage, since at the end of the day, they can always just change their character's name and start over with no consequences.

[cewinstherace 2]

I am sort of the opinion that banditry would logically be the most rewarding path. After all, in a SHTF scenario, there would be no reason to uphold any of the old world moral standards until some sort of police regulation could be formed. There's really no reward for 'humanity' in a society without rules, and if you go out of your way to be helpful, people will justifiably be suspicious of you.

I agree in principle however I wouldn't say the bandit has the most rewarding path. I would however say he has the quickest path to achieving some measurement of success.

The rewards for choosing the virtuous path of reclaiming humanity-lost are strength in numbers and, potentially, accelerating ones ability to earn Humanity. The more folks in your group the more folks there are to support. The more support you offer the higher your humanity score. The higher your score the more opportunities are made available.

How large of a group do you join? If you're the leader how large do you allow your group to become? The larger the group the more difficult your job in ensuring everyone is properly nourished. With a finite amount of resources available the competition for survival, within such a group, will be difficult to manage. Smaller groups would make necessities more readily available however the rate at which your Humanity score grows would be less than if you were to join a larger group.

For bandits, whether alone or in groups, similar issues will arise. Banding together improves your ability to acquire loot. The more loot the more opportunities. The more opportunities the greater your capabilities to enforce your will upon the world. Though size enables a stronger force, with larger groups come the same issues found by those who choose the virtuous path.

Enabling a mechanic such as a Humanity score doesn't change the nature of the game in my opinion. Bandits will still exist and honestly I see no reason to deter their behavior. I enjoy the chaos they bring to DayZ. Without them players would become bored with playing zombie whack a mole.

What it boils down to is this: whether bandit, lone wolf or humanitarian, beyond mere survival, what does the game offer? With a reward system of opportunities and a means to earn such, whether through the acquisition of loot and/or humanity score, I believe paths would start to develop. Paths which lead to forces attempting to reclaim humanity, forces bent on anarchy and every shade of gray in between. All of which would give rise to players caring more about how they play their first 30 minutes and also how they play their last 5.

Edited August 24, 2012 by cewinstherace

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Enabling a mechanic such as a Humanity score doesn't change the nature of the game in my opinion. Bandits will still exist and honestly I see no reason to deter their behavior. I enjoy the chaos they bring to DayZ. Without them players would become bored with playing zombie whack a mole.

What it boils down to is this: whether bandit, lone wolf or humanitarian, beyond mere survival, what does the game offer? With a reward system of opportunities and a means to earn such, whether through the acquisition of loot and/or humanity score, I believe paths would start to develop. Paths which lead to forces attempting to reclaim humanity, forces bent on anarchy and every shade of gray in between. All of which would give rise to players caring more about how they play their first 30 minutes and also how they play their last 5.

Your humanity score is a false currency that would reward one play style, why don't bandits earn "oppertunities" for having a negative humanity score??

Its because you want to reward or push people into doing something, IMO this should be avoided because it ruins the social experiment type of feel that I get playing the game. I recagnize that this feeling is largley absent now for several reasons, but it was there in the begining and I think once some fundemental flaws are fixed it will return.

People do provide tangible rewards for co-operative or alltrusitic behaviour, I've been saved by someone and I left them with supplies, and many other players do also. It is true some will simply shoot you though, it depends and thats the risk you take when you expose yourself to another person/player that has the potential to do violence to you. Look at white list medics they get gear from other players, body guards, etc. Having an additional buff is BS IMO.

[00dlez 22]

the social experiment type of feel that I get playing the game.

It's not really the social experiment that people crack it up to be. We are all* 18-24 year old males who enjoy playing violent video games. As such, the deafult is to shoot people rather than hole up out of sight and sitting around all day doing nothing every time we log in.

If the challenge to survive was cracked up substantially so that the focus of gameplay was back on survival rather than finding military grade assault rifles and ample food within the first 10 minutes and never giving it a second thought, then the game would have more replay value.

As it stands now, I'm afraid many players will leave because there is no endgame beyond PVP, and there are a lot of games folks can play that support this type of action.

* I know not all, shut up.

[curtis19 10]

I think humanity should only determine if you "CAN" start ina group after you die. The end game shoult and from what I heard is to allow people to rebuild a world, bascially makes bases, which would than allow people to fight over them and such, this is rockets in goal from what I understand, Like I said humanity should only be there to allow people to "START" with a group if they decided to, but the game needs to regconize player teams.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

It's not really the social experiment that people crack it up to be. We are all* 18-24 year old males who enjoy playing violent video games. As such, the deafult is to shoot people rather than hole up out of sight and sitting around all day doing nothing every time we log in.

If the challenge to survive was cracked up substantially so that the focus of gameplay was back on survival rather than finding military grade assault rifles and ample food within the first 10 minutes and never giving it a second thought, then the game would have more replay value.

As it stands now, I'm afraid many players will leave because there is no endgame beyond PVP, and there are a lot of games folks can play that support this type of action.

* I know not all, shut up.

I agree with most of what you said, and even recagnized that this aspect of the game was largley gone at this point. Before there was so much meta content, the game loot economy was F*d, and hackers were everywhere there was that feeling that you were trying to survive and it wasn't that easy to thrive. When people shot/robbed you didn't think they were out to pvp, you thought they were out for food/gear, and most of the time they actually were.

I think fixing some of the base issues that lead to anti social behviour would go alot longer than trying to provide rewards to players that do act in a social manner. Add more content so people have things to do, let people win back areas, fix ghosting/altf4, go private hives or severs that only allow linked IG travel, etc. This would increase the community feel, and also provide things to do, and I'm sure once the hacks are gone and some of the other pending zombie games come out the non sim fans will leave for something else.

[cewinstherace 2]

In the real world there are many numerous benefits to being an active member of a community. Some of which are gained through no effort of your own. Other benefits require your time and energy to realize.

Such is the mechanic I believe necessary to enable the path of the humanity-reclaimers in the wold of DayZ.

Again, what we're discussing is as follows:

1. A set of rewards unlocked by either the exchange of goods (value for value) or meeting a given opportunities minimum Humanity score.

2. Humanity is earned through, direct, peer to peer support. Hand a fellow survivor a can of beans earn the value of the beans in Humanity.

Some suggestions for the types of opportunities unlocked:

- learn to bandage wounds more efficiently

- improved weapon accuracy

- operate complicated vehicles

- generate power

- reinforce structures

- etc..

[curtis19 10]

In the real world there are many numerous benefits to being an active member of a community. Some of which are gained through no effort of your own. Other benefits require your time and energy to realize.

Such is the mechanic I believe necessary to enable the path of the humanity-reclaimers in the wold of DayZ.

Again, what we're discussing is as follows:

1. A set of rewards unlocked by either the exchange of goods (value for value) or meeting a given opportunities minimum Humanity score.

2. Humanity is earned through, direct, peer to peer support. Hand a fellow survivor a can of beans earn the value of the beans in Humanity.

Some suggestions for the types of opportunities unlocked:

- learn to bandage wounds more efficiently

- improved weapon accuracy

- operate complicated vehicles

- generate power

- reinforce structures

- etc..

I think your ideas are good, but they don't translate well from real world.

In real world humanity gets socity working together not knowledge. I think what your idea are should be used in a sense for sure, but not as a reward for your humanity. humanity should be used for just things like whter you start ina groupd or maybe what you start with after you die. the other things should happen once people start rebulding the world starting with a base.

Edited August 24, 2012 by curtis19

[cewinstherace 2]

I think your ideas are good, but they don't translate well from real world. In real world humanity gets socity working together not knowledge.

Society is the glue which enables the integrity of mans knowledge. Without our humanity, mans ability to maintain the knowledge which allows for the construction of everything from a light bulb to the most advanced micro processor erodes over time. Without our humanity, mans ability to train folks in the art of dance and brain surgery fades with future generations. Without our humanity the history of who we were and when we were here dissolves into the sands themselves.

Collectively we represent humanity. Through our compassion we endeavor, from generation to generation, to improve our stake.

If DayZ aims to accurately model the real world in a post apocalyptic setting then tools or mechanics which allow folks to do more than build tent camps and amass loot need to exist.

Rocket, during the youtube vid he recorded with SideStafe (

), suggests the creation of such tools are paramount to taking the game beyond one mans experiment. If you've not already watched the vid I suggest doing so. The man, Rocket, is very interested in the success of DayZ beyond enabling random folks with the ability to play out their ax murderer or bandit fantasies.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Society is the glue which enables the integrity of mans knowledge. Without our humanity, mans ability to maintain the knowledge which allows for the construction of everything from a light bulb to the most advanced micro processor erodes over time. Without our humanity, mans ability to train folks in the art of dance and brain surgery fades with future generations. Without our humanity the history of who we were and when we were here dissolves into the sands themselves.

Thats what happens in a SHTF scenario, almost immediatly the majority of what makes us "advanced" disappears because it is to reliant on the plethora of subsystems that exist to support it. The building blocks that we have based technology on are instantly gone, and like any tower without a foundation it all comes crumbling to the ground.

You talk about power and surgery when IMO these things would be years or lifetimes away for people in the first generation of a global apocalypse.

How many people in an advanced society would know how to 1. Stalk and Kill large game, 2. Dress and butcher game, from here we have a subset of people, now remove the blocks we relay on in modern life. 3. Prepare meat in 90 degree heat to avoid spoilage 4. Store prepared meat to avoid spoilage/contamination.

IMO these basics need to be modled into the game before expansive endevours like turning the power back on, survival isn't as easy as it is IG now and if it was implemented correctly it would create enough content to keep players very busy, and also provide an insentive to group up.

Now you shoot game and cook it over a camp fire, you don't need anyone for this.

If this was more "authentic" you would have a set amount of time to get meat cooked (more people needed to clean), cooked meat would have a set amount of time to spoil. You would be able to create smoke houses or drying sites where meat can be preparred in ways that ensure it keeps for longer periods. etc.

None of this requires humanity it simply requries some knowledge and alot of work, thats what got people by for thousands of years before technology and thats what would get people through an apocalypse.

[curtis19 10]

Society is the glue which enables the integrity of mans knowledge. Without our humanity, mans ability to maintain the knowledge which allows for the construction of everything from a light bulb to the most advanced micro processor erodes over time. Without our humanity, mans ability to train folks in the art of dance and brain surgery fades with future generations. Without our humanity the history of who we were and when we were here dissolves into the sands themselves.

Collectively we represent humanity. Through our compassion we endeavor, from generation to generation, to improve our stake.

If DayZ aims to accurately model the real world in a post apocalyptic setting then tools or mechanics which allow folks to do more than build tent camps and amass loot need to exist.

Rocket, during the youtube vid he recorded with SideStafe (

), suggests the creation of such tools are paramount to taking the game beyond one mans experiment. If you've not already watched the vid I suggest doing so. The man, Rocket, is very interested in the success of DayZ beyond enabling random folks with the ability to play out their ax murderer or bandit fantasies.

Having more humanity doesn't make me learn how to fly an airplane. i agree it allows me to get taught by people, but your saying that the more humainty I have than I should learn how to fly an airplane. If anything in the game it should be humanity allows people to come together to share, idk manuels or for everyone to create a library or a airplane school, not a because i got a certain score by being nice, that makes no sense. I'm not bashing your idea just saying it doesn't make sense with the use of the humanity system.

[DemonGroover 8836]

It's not really the social experiment that people crack it up to be. We are all* 18-24 year old males who enjoy playing violent video games. As such, the deafult is to shoot people rather than hole up out of sight and sitting around all day doing nothing every time we log in.

If the challenge to survive was cracked up substantially so that the focus of gameplay was back on survival rather than finding military grade assault rifles and ample food within the first 10 minutes and never giving it a second thought, then the game would have more replay value.

As it stands now, I'm afraid many players will leave because there is no endgame beyond PVP, and there are a lot of games folks can play that support this type of action.

* I know not all, shut up.

Ha, ha - you whipper snappers think you represent the "gamer age"

I was playing video games when you thought pooping in your pants was the pinnacle of fun!

I need a lie down.

[00dlez 22]

Ha, ha - you whipper snappers think you represent the "gamer age"

I was playing video games when you thought pooping in your pants was the pinnacle of fun!

I need a lie down.

I'm on the same side of the age bracket that you are, sir, but stats are stats.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I'm on the same side of the age bracket that you are, sir, but stats are stats.

What? Who said that?? Who's there?

Edited August 28, 2012 by DemonGroover

[RaphielDrake 2]

I think a 24 hour penalty of losing stamina twice as fast should be implemented after a murder to simulate the psychological trauma it would have.

Once humanity sinks to bandit level the effect no longer occurs. However, being a bandit you have a bounty on your head which can only be claimed by non-bandits. The bounty is worth more if claimed by a hero. This being the case heroes might become a target of bandits because of the potential of better loot gained from these bounties.

Its just the embryo of an idea but I think it has potential.

Edited August 28, 2012 by RaphielDrake

[xximrtwoixx 104]

And related to thread how....

Who pays the bounty, I can only hope its an invinciple sherif with aim bot and a mini gun...