'OP' Guns and the Future of Dayz

[tarquinbb 28]

A kind of controversial topic... so let's get straight down to business. To put it bluntly, I would like .50 cals (AS50 and M107) and thermal (L85A2) either totally changed or removed from the game entirely.

I have several reasons for wishing such a drastic change, but to focus on the primary reason let's assume that all duping and hacking is dealt with, therefore we can skip the problem of weapon inflation and how the 'special' rare weapons are common as mud.

Basically, in my opinion the weapons in question are ridiculously overpowered as they render pretty much every other weapon in the game completely obsolete (unless you want to be a total badass and gimp yourself with inferior weapons, which can be fun). I feel this has a really negative impact on the game longevity, with both the lack of diversity and the stunted skill ceiling brought about by such godly weapons.

Note: I absolutely want people to be rewarded for finding and collecting rare gear.

Perhaps removing from the game is overkill. I honestly love the AS50, M107 and L85A2; and I have no problem with the use of them in the current build. However, it's the future of the mod I'm concerned about, and I feel that endgame will be very stale if the weapons remain in a similar 'shady' state further down the line.

For the sake of keeping the weapons in the game, the change I propose would be to make these weapons function with charges instead of ammo magazines. For example each AS50/M107 only gets 5 (up for debate) charges/shots, then it's destroyed and dumped. I believe this same mechanic could work for the rocket launcher as well, and would work to prevent the mass hoarding of ammunition and the nigh infinite ammo stockpiles, which would help to increase value and rarity of these weapons.

Regarding the knock-on effect for players, my theory is that skilled players with strategic knowledge won't be harmed by the change, and it would provide a more enjoyable game because it would require more skill/strategy/diversity and less dependancy on a complete zerg of AS50/thermal facerollers, "lolz i win coz my team haz more as50z and thermals!".

Anyway this is me just voicing my thoughts... First of all, the focus should be on dealing with hackers, altf4/aborters and server hopping ghosters etc. But eventually I would really like the 'overpowered' weapons to be neutralized to provide a more competitive and diverse endgame instead of effectively transforming into superman the second you pick up a certain weapon.

Edited August 5, 2012 by tarquinbb

[umandez 139]

Well rocket wants to implement a sense of durability with weapons as such. Alot of these problems will be fixed with a stand alone version as rocket will pretty much be able to do as he wishes with the engine that's what people fail to see. He will more than likely have a bigger work force at his disposal.

[suspense 210]

I dont understand the debate on these weapons, they aren't OP.

The mod is currently build on a military simulator, set in chernarus shortly after or during the invasion. Everything is up for grabs.

If you played arma 2 or arrowhead, you would know its not difficult to beat an as50, 107 or l85. Just dont play the game like CoD or BF3. Countless of times have i attacked groups with snipers, lone snipers aswell, just flank them properly and stop trying to outsnipe them with your assault rifle lol.

Yes its a oneshot kill rifle, and its supposed to be. If your complaint is that you die before you can spot them, then you didnt scout your area well enough, and didnt move toward your goal carefully enough

Edited August 5, 2012 by Suspenselol

[yumey95 10]

Well, i do not agree with your proposition on charges. That does not make any sense. Being shot by a .50cal bullet from 1000 meters hurts, i think the damage should be where it is right now. But the NVG's do require some change, IRL ones only give you the ability to see in darkness for about 125 meters or something. And Dayz NVG's make you see really far, in the night.

Thermal weapons are just doing their job, i dont know what to do about them since ive never used one.

Edited August 5, 2012 by SniFF

[OrLoK 16187]

Hello there

IMHO highpowered / OP weapons are fine.

But, ammo for rare weapons should be ....rare.

Thermal scopes should need batteries (al la A.C.E mod) which should be low charge and also something to scavenge for.

.22 / shotgun shells should be more common and milspec ammo rarer.

Mechanics like this keep the leet gear in game for those who want it and makes owning the gun more prestigious, without having a glut of them on every server and makes snipers and night vision owners the feared opponents they should be.

rgds

LoK

[Chuckles (DayZ) 32]

There have been some similar ideas, personally I still hope there will be a solution when they fix the "unlimited ammo" bug (refilling magazines) and perhaps make military ammunition slightly more rare. I love the pvp in this game, but it would be nice for there to be less incentive to camp the starting spawn areas. Had a guy waste I don't know how many bullets from an m4 SD this morning as a fresh spawn, I just ran zig zags... Doing something about duping would hopefully help too.

[Swineflew 480]

This isn't really a weapon balance issue imo.

If these rare weapons werent being hacked in an duped the rarity would balance out their strength.

Although if you're getting shot by a sniper you're likely going to die regardless on which gun it is, unless you altf4.

[The_Man 393]

The weapons don't need to change. Your tactics do.

[Kozmas 30]

I don't think they need to remove the high powered weapons. They just need to make all the other weapons do a shit load more damage. If someone gets shot in the chest with a 9mm with just bandages and morphene they're going to die. They're not going to keep on running like nothing happened.

[Avean (DayZ) 31]

I agree about the AMMO. If you lets say had 2 bullets and a struggle finding more for an M107. Would you use it to hunt other players or to keep it in emergency situations ? I think the last. It would fix alot of the PvP problems right now as well and balance the game alot more.

But i dont think we are experienced DayZ balance as it should, not since ever. Hackers have brought in tons of weapons and duping is done by everyone as its so easy, so everyone running around with ghillies and snipers. Thats not how it is supposed to be at all.

Ghillies and camo have like 0.2% spawn rate, pretty ridiculous that entire clans have them right ?

[Golgo82 28]

These weapons aren't "overpowered" because to be overpowered there has to be balance in the first place.

Luckily (for me at least) this game isnt about balance, its about the very basic survival of the fittest. Not just the strongest, the smartest or the best geared but the fittest.

You have to adapt and overcome lots of obstacles, the very first would be to aquire the knowledge of Zed Evasion, followed by Navigation, Opportunism and so on.

That being said, most people packing the aforementioned kind of heat are just the best geared. They can be outsmarted. They can be killed. Very easily most of the time.

The only thing that needs to be adressed in terms of "balance" is to ensure that everyone is on the same playing field.

1) No more duping(intentional or unintentional)

2) No more hacking(we can still dream)

3) Proper Ammunition Count Tracking( no more infinite Ammo by relog/Mag-Conversion)

4) No more combat Logging/ALT+F4

After 1, 3 and 4 are accomplished the Cherno Whores (Combat-logging Noobs with AS50/M107/.. and infinite ammo) will diminish.

The L85's Thermal is very powerful in the right hands and completely worthless in the hands of others. But the gun itself kind of sucks in terms of long-range accuracy and damage. As soon as 1 and 2 are fixed, this will be a very rare weapon with copious amounts of ammunition should you be lucky enough to get it.

[tarquinbb 28]

I dont understand the debate on these weapons, they aren't OP.

The mod is currently build on a military simulator, set in chernarus shortly after or during the invasion. Everything is up for grabs.

If you played arma 2 or arrowhead, you would know its not difficult to beat an as50, 107 or l85. Just dont play the game like CoD or BF3. Countless of times have i attacked groups with snipers, lone snipers aswell, just flank them properly and stop trying to outsnipe them with your assault rifle lol.

Yes its a oneshot kill rifle, and its supposed to be. If your complaint is that you die before you can spot them, then you didnt scout your area well enough, and didnt move toward your goal carefully enough

you can't really flank when they have several players scanning 360 degrees with thermal.

also, indeed it's a military simulator game and hense it's plausible that a guy could have an as50 with plenty of ammo. however, dayz is meant to be an pseudo-apocalypse scenario where you have to survive attrition, it's simply not plausible that your team would have a whole stack of as50's with dozens of magazines. there's literally more ammo lying around than in left4dead. "hey guys we're in luck - the world has reset so there's another 12 crashed BAF choppers out there waiting to be plucked of goodies!"

Well, i do not agree with your proposition on charges. That does not make any sense. Being shot by a .50cal bullet from 1000 meters hurts, i think the damage should be where it is right now. But the NVG's do require some change, IRL ones only give you the ability to see in darkness for about 125 meters or something. And Dayz NVG's make you see really far, in the night.

Thermal weapons are just doing their job, i dont know what to do about them since ive never used one.

i think you kinda misunderstood the charge idea. the charge idea is to give each weapon a limited number of shots before it's destroyed. this is to simulate the effect that you only have a few shots available - therefore people would actually have to be careful with their shots (so you can't spray and pray with your 'super rare' weapon which is what people do atm). you can't carry a bunch of as50's, but you can carry dozens of mags - ergo you'd actually have to aim with it.

The weapons don't need to change. Your tactics do.

yeah... well... that's just like eh... your opinion, man.

seriously though, 50% of my deaths may have been from as50 - but my thought on the weapons mostly comes from watching the high level streams/vids on youtube. where it's ALL about .50cal/thermal and comparatively almost every other weapon is about as useful as dog turd.

[tarquinbb 28]

I agree about the AMMO. If you lets say had 2 bullets and a struggle finding more for an M107. Would you use it to hunt other players or to keep it in emergency situations ? I think the last. It would fix alot of the PvP problems right now as well and balance the game alot more.

But i dont think we are experienced DayZ balance as it should, not since ever. Hackers have brought in tons of weapons and duping is done by everyone as its so easy, so everyone running around with ghillies and snipers. Thats not how it is supposed to be at all.

Ghillies and camo have like 0.2% spawn rate, pretty ridiculous that entire clans have them right ?

ghillie and camo aren't that rare tbh.

if you farm a low population area such as polana, you will almost certainly find a ghillie or camo in maybe 2-3 hours. ghillie and camo are indeed more scarce than as50 etc purely because you can't recycle them.

[Argent_LeRoche 13]

My two cents on weapons would be a Far Cry 2 like system were weapons wear and tear over time.

However I would have it that the simpler weapons (Lee-Enfield for example) would have more durability then the complex ones.

[Swineflew 480]

Fixing duping fixes this problem.

Seriously.

[suspense 210]

you can't really flank when they have several players scanning 360 degrees with thermal.

also, indeed it's a military simulator game and hense it's plausible that a guy could have an as50 with plenty of ammo. however, dayz is meant to be an pseudo-apocalypse scenario where you have to survive attrition, it's simply not plausible that your team would have a whole stack of as50's with dozens of magazines. there's literally more ammo lying around than in left4dead. "hey guys we're in luck - the world has reset so there's another 12 crashed BAF choppers out there waiting to be plucked of goodies!"

Yes you can, thermal makes it difficult to see terrain, you can easily get lost and lose angles.

If you pick a fight against a group of 5 with as50s and l85s, then you shouldnt be mad for losing, its obviously against your odds.

[Rono 56]

Superior tactics will always win out. Also, stop crying about 50 cals, you would likely have died in one shot from any of the other sniper rifles anyways, and if not then you would A) DC like a noob or B) Get shot again and die. If he hits you at range you weren't moving properly or he really deserves to kill you.

[Erik (DayZ) 61]

I do somewhat agree with you that these weapons are quite unfair but we do really need high tier guns.

[Dingus (DayZ) 429]

I would love to see a weapon durability system. After enough use, a weapon needs to be maintained, possibly repaired with parts or else it could jam frequently. Or! Or the ammo situation could just be fixed so you relog with full magazines or refill magazines simply by converting them. This would be useless as long as there is duping however.

[-SA-Vanguard 10]

That round furthest on the left is the .50BMG round, which is what the Barrett M107 and Accuracy International AS50 use. These weapons have an effective range of up to 1500-1800 meters. If you get hit by it, you WILL die instantly. These weapons are by no means over powered, they reason they're designed is in the name: anti-materiel rifle.

Materiel is basically the French word for military. AM rifles are meant to take out lightly armored vehicles and ALL infantry types. If you find yourself being shot at with either of these two guns, you're most likely not going to live through it.

Now that the gun lesson is over, I'll share my opinion on the matter. People saying you need to adjust your tactics are right. For a sniper to be effective, he needs to remain concealed and have a clear view of his target. If you're in clear view of him and he's still concealed, he has a huge advantage. A good sniper will always hit their target on their first shot. After that first shot, their position is revealed and they usually pick up and move.

If someone shoots at you with one of these guns and misses, you better get your ass either out of sight or behind cover. Good snipers always have a spotter with them who usually packs the range finders and automatic weapons to deal with close combat situations.

Simply put, either stay out of sight (stick to trees and tree lines, minimize your exposure time) or stay in cover, return fire and keep moving closer to him. If you hear the first shot whiz past your head, take a guess at where the sniper is and return fire. You may actually kill him, or he might get spooked and bug out.

The guns don't need balancing. If you're lucky enough to find one, you deserve to use it as you please.

Edit: Oh yeah, those white smoke grenades are really useful as well. Get in cover, throw one either as a distraction or cover, then sprint through it :] Green and red aren't as good, they're mainly used for signalling things like extraction points/landing zones.

Edited August 5, 2012 by -SA-Vanguard

[Demon20 46]

Hello there

IMHO highpowered / OP weapons are fine.

But, ammo for rare weapons should be ....rare.

Thermal scopes should need batteries (al la A.C.E mod) which should be low charge and also something to scavenge for.

.22 / shotgun shells should be more common and milspec ammo rarer.

Mechanics like this keep the leet gear in game for those who want it and makes owning the gun more prestigious, without having a glut of them on every server and makes snipers and night vision owners the feared opponents they should be.

rgd

LoK

Thank you for bringing up the "batteries" option. That's the elephant in the room. Power. NVGs, Range Finders. Thermal Optics. Flashlights. GPS devices. All require batteries. There's the first thing that I would do after fixing duping. Make these things require batteries. I know that I am not alone, but ask any guy that has spent time with this kind of gear plus radios and you will find out exactly how many batteries and extra batteries you have to hump in just to get this crap to work in the first place.

Superior tactics will always win out. Also, stop crying about 50 cals, you would likely have died in one shot from any of the other sniper rifles anyways, and if not then you would A) DC like a noob or B) Get shot again and die. If he hits you at range you weren't moving properly or he really deserves to kill you.

Yep. Don't play by yourself. Scout better. Get better tactics. Tactics are more important than weapons. Numbers are also. Ask the British about superior weapons...the Zulus still killed them because they had more numbers.

I would love to see a weapon durability system. After enough use, a weapon needs to be maintained, possibly repaired with parts or else it could jam frequently. Or! Or the ammo situation could just be fixed so you relog with full magazines or refill magazines simply by converting them. This would be useless as long as there is duping however.

And another piece of the puzzle.

Look, the answer OP isn't removing weapons for the game. Nor is it about "balance". You can't balance a .50 round versus .223. It's not possible.

Here's the truth of the matter, Chris Kyle, America's current best sniper got the vast majority of his kills using .338 and .380 win mag...not .50. Admits in his book he's not a fan of the .50 systems. Yes, he used it, trained it, etc., but wasn't found of it. Not flexible, etc. He speaks candidly about the weapon systems he used and why. It all points to versality. .50 weapon systems are not flexible.

The question about "9mm to the chest"...you'll die? Not true. People survive gun shots all the time. Even in war. I have said it before, I'll say it again, if you don't put that 9mm, or .45, or 5.56mm or even 7.62mm in the "right" place, you will get nothing but a bleeding target. Bleeding can be stopped. What kills? A bullet to a vital point. The head. The spine. The lungs. The heart. A major artery in the leg or chest. The odds of doing that? Slimmer than you think. You can't balance that like you think. That's why the .50 works as a single shot kill...it's ballistic energy and damage potential means you don't have to be any more exact than a hit. Every other round requires a vital point being hit.

The answer to the problem you want fixed OP is simple. D, all of the above. Fix duping. Fix infinite ammo. Make ammo fit its "rareness". Yes, .22 is going to be very common. But so is everything else but specialty ammo. Hate to break it to you, but the world is full of everything. Millions of rounds of 9mm, .40, .45, 5.56mm 7.62, .308...etc. What's rare? .50, 6.5mm, etc. And that's rare in comparison to other ammunition types...not rare in comparison to whether they exist or not.

Then for some spite, make batteries required. Make them come in two types...rechargable and not. Throw in tools for solar systems, gasification, bicycle & alternators, generators, etc...let me recharge some batteries and make them required for range finders, thermal optics, power optics, gps...etc.

Couple that with some durability and chance of weapon system failure and then you don't have a problem. But in the end brother, you're still gonna die. Death will still be there. Because people will make their way from survivor to striver and they'll have the batteries and the spare barrels and the replacement springs and they'll have found enough ammo...and will guard it and use it wisely...and then they will shoot you. And you'll be right back where you are now.

Out.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Demon20

[-SA-Vanguard 10]

But in the end brother, you're still gonna die. Death will still be there. Because people will make their way from survivor to striver and they'll have the batteries and the spare barrels and the replacement springs and they'll have found enough ammo...and will guard it and use it wisely...and then they will shoot you. And you'll be right back where you are now.

Exactly, well said.

[Dingus (DayZ) 429]

I just don't believe it's an issue of "balance." It's not supposed to be balanced. The weapons you take issue with are supposed to be among the rarest in the game, but they don't seem to be. It's an issue of duping/hacking/spawnfarming/serverhopping making these items far more prevalent than they otherwise would be.

[oZiix 45]

The Guns aren't supposed to be balanced because Guns aren't balanced. A 50. cal is suppose to be a 1 hit kill. If you are a few centimeters off the shockwave from the bullet will hurt you in real life. Not to dig into the real life argument.

EDIT CAUSE I READ THIS:

For the sake of keeping the weapons in the game, the change I propose would be to make these weapons function with charges instead of ammo magazines. For example each AS50/M107 only gets 5 (up for debate) charges/shots, then it's destroyed and dumped. I believe this same mechanic could work for the rocket launcher as well, and would work to prevent the mass hoarding of ammunition and the nigh infinite ammo stockpiles, which would help to increase value and rarity of these weapons.

Not Cod next people will ask for auto shield regen. M107 using charges instead of mags and then has an imaginary timer that makes it desolve. wtf gtfo.

Edited August 5, 2012 by oZiix

[_Gunslinger_ 46]

I think once duping and mag refills have been fixed, you'll find .50cal rifles ditched on the roadside because most of the derphards that use them don't put the effort into finding ammo; they steal one gun and some mags from somebody's tent, and dupe the ever-loving shit out of it.