Please, DONT add a bandit-indicator in this patch

[adamtheheretic 106]

Read OP but tl;dr...

I agree that being able to tell if someone is a bandit or "hero" is annoying through just cosmetics, but I'd like a way to tell which player is which in my group rather than skin colour or faces... clothing is a very reasonable request and this will add it even if it's in the wrong way. Just live with it and I'm sure rocket will realise the error of his ways.

[bazbake 456]

If someone with a hero skin and a sniper rifle comes along, I would probably pass him some mags so he can keep going on to countersnipe.

Wasteland legends. I would love to see a high-humanity player with a sniper rifle just strolling through with maybe a hero skin. I'd follow them to the gates of hell and back and give them all my beans.

[bazbake 456]

Simple system I had in mind involving threat tags.

1. Threat tags: if you swap items you get a threat tag and are a "threat."
   
2. Four seconds of being unarmed or lowering your weapon means you're not a threat.
   
3. Healing someone who's not a threat raises your humanity.
   
4. Being killed when you're not a threat raises your humanity.
   
5. Hurting someone who's not a threat costs you humanity.
   
6. Killing someone who's not a threat makes you a murderer.
   
7. Bandits are always threats.
   

Basically, murders don't count and humanity isn't lost if someone looks like they're pulling out a weapon, is currently holding one, or has just put a weapon away. Bandits can be killed without consequence. Being nice to people who aren't threats rewards you with humanity. Dying when you're not a threat also rewards you with humanity.

[Knollte 13]

Simple system I had in mind involving threat tags.

1. Threat tags: if you swap items you get a threat tag and are a "threat."
   
2. Four seconds of being unarmed or lowering your weapon means you're not a threat.
   
3. Healing someone who's not a threat raises your humanity.
   
4. Being killed when you're not a threat raises your humanity.
   
5. Hurting someone who's not a threat costs you humanity.
   
6. Killing someone who's not a threat makes you a murderer.
   
7. Bandits are always threats.
   

Basically, murders don't count and humanity isn't lost if someone looks like they're pulling out a weapon, is currently holding one, or has just put a weapon away. Bandits can be killed without consequence. Being nice to people who aren't threats rewards you with humanity. Dying when you're not a threat also rewards you with humanity.

Sounds good just make sure bandits cant give 10 bloodpacks to his buddy and be fine again.

[my_opinion 0]

I can't wait for the indicators, the should have never removed them

I agree , bandits are just too chicken to collect their own goodies themselves.

they wait in the woods until some new guy gets in and collects a few items then they kill them for them.

poor bandits , looks like you will have to get close to some zombies yourself.

[stonedmonkey 1]

I just saw Rocket on Machinima where he says they will introduce a bandit-indicator in this next patch.

39:30 in this video:

This is really bad for a number of reasons. Right now, you are scared of other people and you dont really know who to trust. That's good, since you will have to build that trust. Peoples agendas are not visible to you like a TF2-hat. It has a nice psychological impact on you as a player.

The bandit-indicator is moving the gameplay away from the realism-aspect of the game and suddenly you magically get a hat from heaven when you kill somebody. Things like this will ruin the immersion and while some players might think this is "cool" it's moving the game towards not feeling like a real thing anymore.

People tend to say "Duh, realism? ITS A ZOMBIE GAME".

src:http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/597-ai-death-squads-bullet-lethality-and-delayed-disconnect/#entry7140

Rocket spoke of an idea he had a while back - that you would get bloody if you looted a players corpse. That's a much better idea since that doesnt really HAVE to mean that a player is a bandit. Maybe he just found a corpse along the beach and looted it? When another player meets him he might have to explain himself. Why is he bloody like that? Is he bandit?

Stuff like that is the really fun part of the game and it adds to the immersion and builds tension.

Please, please, please dont add any achievement-style cosmetic changes to the game!

Edit: People need to understand that this has nothing to do with "cod kids" or only bandits. This costmetic change applies to everybody and while some people might not think that immersion is an important part of the game, I do.

I am not against the indicator in general. I simply just want a realistic change/addition and not an achievement-style change (item appears from nowhere)

This costmetic change can be made in different and more realistic ways that will not remove anything from the immersion and at the same time the guys that just want the indicator gets their piece of the cake too. Both parties happy.

WORD!

[bazbake 456]

Someone in another thread I can't find right now described the idea of you looking more like a zombie the more people you killed. The logic is that everyone is infected by the virus (like Walking Dead) and the more innocent people you kill, the more you act like a zombie, the faster the virus overtakes you. Being "humane" has a placebo effect and your body fights back harder to resist losing your "humanity." Giving in to your worst nature makes you more like the zombies that are overtaking the village.

It would also make normal people creeped out around you (heartbeat/panic). And if you're zombified enough they could kill you without consequence since they're just stopping an infected person.

[soapmak3r 677]

QQ bandits...QQ...

Oh, that felt good!

You guys have been playing easy mode for nearly 2 months now. Just killing indiscriminately and getting away with it. Now when survivors see you, you are fucked!

http://youtu.be/UmvnXKRfdb8

[Cadmus 0]

There's so little you can take away from text and the movement of a 3D model. Unless you have a gameplay mechanic that will help you find out what a given player is likely to do to you, it's virtually impossible to tell what they even /could/ do. So people are going to default to KOS just to be safe so they don't, like harken was, get shot in the back and lose precious time and progress.

My idea? Some sort of Sanity of Humanity meter. The more non-bandit people you kill, the lower it drops, having some sort of negative effect on your character that cannot be reversed. Is it flawed? Probably, but it'd give people at least one reason not to randomly shoot everyone they see.

[Mister Motivational 24]

Nice try, but you're not very convincing at all.

Bandits are KoS. Period. No matter what you do, they want to shoot you first and take your stuff.

Survivors are not KoS. They won't shoot until you shoot.

Considering how powerful guns that aren't shotguns or pistols are in this game, and the high probability of a first-shot kill, these are the possibilities when two players meet [Current Example 1]:

1. Bandit finds Bandit = 50/50 chance of being shot or shooting first.
   
2. Bandit meets Survivor = Bandit will shoot while survivor hesitates.
   
3. Survivor finds Survivor = Survivors won't shoot. Survivors lose nothing. Survivors gain nothing.
   

So in 75% of all encounters involving a particular bandit, he gets to take someone's stuff. In half of all encounters involving a survivor, a survivor gets to live.

Logic says that survivors will eventually give up and become bandits. Not only will their odds of not dying go up by 25%, but their odds of getting someone else's loot will go up to 75%. It's going to happen. The only way this won't happen is with a constant influx of new players who don't know any better and the heavy use of metagaming (using forums, chatrooms, ventrilo, mumble, and bringing your friends along in order to circumvent the limits of the game.)

But don't be fooled. Bandits knows exactly how the system works. The reason they don't want to be identified is not because it will break the game. The reason they don't want to be identified is because the game is already broken in their favor. There is only one situation where a bandit is ever under threat, and that is if they encounter another bandit. Bandits are already statistically more likely to benefit from encounters with other players than survivors are to walk away alive.

Now, what happens if bandits are identified? [Example 2]

1. Bandit finds bandit = 50/50 chance of being shot or shooting first.
   
2. Bandit meets survivor = 50/50 chance of being shot or shooting first.
   
3. Survivor finds survivor = Survivors won't shoot.
   

If bandits are identified, then survivors have a 75% chance of surviving encounters with other players and a 25% chance of getting someone's loot. Bandits, on the other hand, get a 50% chance of surviving encounters with other players and a 50% chance of getting someone's loot.

The idea of this breaking the game is nonsense. It's actually the only way the game can function unless the playerbase turns fully bandit. Now, if everyone is a bandit [Example 3]...

1. Bandit finds bandit = 50/50 chance of being shot or shooting first. 50/50 chance of getting loot.
   

This is the game some of them want to play. But here's the thing. For bandits interested in PvP combat, Example 2 and 3 are the exact same game. For bandits actually wanting to fight in PvP, having bandits identified on sight would be no different for them. It's the bandits that don't want a straight-up fight that are affected by this. They are afraid that a survivor will sneak up on them and kill them before they have a chance to respond. They're terrified that survivors will treat them the same way they treat everyone else. And to them, that breaks the game.

Well you make a rather lengthy point there, not all that good of one but lengthy none-the-less.

Banditry is a problem for various reasons and while identifying the bandit is a simple solution it's a rather poor one.

I'm not interested in player killing and I've been killed a couple times because of this. Now an identifier sure might have helped tell me what kind of person I was dealing with, but it wouldn't really give a whole lot of depth to the scenario.

That's the reason indicators break the game, because at the end of the day the real point of the game is the experience. The choices you make no matter how informed, the tension, the conflict, the requirement to think in every instance are what it's about.

If every bandit you see is readily marked it's unlikely you'll think twice before blasting them.

On the flip side bandits have no reason not to shoot anyone they meet, whether they're acquiring gear or just shooting for the sport of it.

There are better ways to fix these issues, they require a lot more work than a simple indicator.

[libertine 351]

Well when this is added, I guess I am never comming down the hills for close combat, but is just going to sit on a hill sniping people.

This bandit indicator will REALLY help others in preventing me from putting sniped bullets in their brain! ... or maybe not.

Most of this was sarcasm btw.

The indicator won't help shit.

Bandits in groups could easly boost their "hero rating" by continous bloodtransfusing and so on.

While the hero type players going solo is more then likely going to look like bandits because they spend more time defending themself then helping the random dude who is bleeding a bit.

Sure more people will be prevented from backstabbing the fellow survivor after saying friendly if he is bandit skinned.

But do you people really believe that soon, every player in survivor or hero skin is not going to wack you for that shiney AS50? LOL

If you let a stranger roll up on you in real life, in a dark alley or in the middle of the desert where you are completely alone, then dying is YOUR mistake!

This scenario is basicly a white van pulling up, giving candy and guns. Some of them is going to take you on and make you a soldier and have good times, others are going to do some funky shit to you and then kill you. What you are asking for is white vans with the words "WE KILL YOU" and blue vans with "WEAPONS AND SAFETY!".

Good luck with that in real life, it will work just as well, the weapons and safety is still going to be a 50/50 chance of death and mutalation. And "we kill you" vans are still going to be 50/50 on w/e or not it is actually going to murder you.

An bandit indicator WILL help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No not every player will refrain from being a selfish cunt and killing you for your stuff, but many, like me will. That also the beauty of the bandit skin, it doesn't completely eliminate the tension of meeting another survivor. And since so many people aren't even grouping [or even getting close to each right now], this change will encourage communication between survivors thus that we might be able to get a hint that the guy is an a-hole. Bandits, in my opinion, get a huge benefit of the game being harder with more tension and i might even consider being a bandit now that i wouldn't be taking advantage of people's real life tendency to not harm other people to stay safe and cozy, like a GOD DAMN PUSSY!

[bazbake 456]

@MisterMotivational

Banditry is the easiest way to play the game. But you know that (you quoted me), which is why you're not arguing on fact, you're arguing on principle.

If you're a bandit, wear the badge. If you're good at PvP and stealth, you'll survive. Unless a 50/50 chance of survival in a stand-up fight is too much for you to handle (you have my sympathies...we can't all be good at combat :rolleyes: ).

Edited August 7, 2012 by BazBake

[Mister Motivational 24]

@MisterMotivational

Banditry is the easiest way to play the game. But you know that (you quoted me), which is why you're not arguing on fact, you're arguing on principle.

If you're a bandit, wear the badge. If you're good at PvP and stealth, you'll survive. Unless a 50/50 chance of survival in a stand-up fight is too much for you to handle (you have my sympathies...we can't all be good at combat :rolleyes: ).

I've never shot another player, or at one for that matter, nor do I intend to if it is not necessary. I suppose that is a rather principled approach.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Sounds good just make sure bandits cant give 10 bloodpacks to his buddy and be fine again.

Are you saying no one should get a humanity gain from giving blood packs or that once you get the bandit skin your just stuck with it forever?? Do you really think you won't ever have to defend yourself or your group from other players??

I agree , bandits are just too chicken to collect their own goodies themselves.

they wait in the woods until some new guy gets in and collects a few items then they kill them for them.

poor bandits , looks like you will have to get close to some zombies yourself.

I still plan on doing this, mainly from a bush so that you don't see me before I shoot.

Also skins and lack of humanity drop for "survivors" shooting "bandits" really only leads "bandits" to always shoot to loot, why would I try and stick you up for gear if I know you have nothing to lose?? Also if people actually listened they wouldn't be shot as much but I think your white hats are to tight because you always try to shoot/run and then you just end up dead.

QQ bandits...QQ...

Oh, that felt good!

You guys have been playing easy mode for nearly 2 months now. Just killing indiscriminately and getting away with it. Now when survivors see you, you are fucked!

If people playing as survivors were any good they wouldn't be QQ'n on the forums as much as they have been. Skin or no they will still be shot/sniped whenever they are seen, a bandit having a skin won't change the way they act, and most non bandits are so blind they don't even see their shooters.

This is only a victory for gamification not for actually addressing any of the problems that cause KOS or DM play.

@MisterMotivational

Banditry is the easiest way to play the game. But you know that (you quoted me), which is why you're not arguing on fact, you're arguing on principle.

If you're a bandit, wear the badge. If you're good at PvP and stealth, you'll survive. Unless a 50/50 chance of survival in a stand-up fight is too much for you to handle (you have my sympathies...we can't all be good at combat :rolleyes: ).

Playing as a bandit is the easiest and fastest way to aquire all of the kit you need/want, it is not the easiest or safest way to play. Actively looking for other players or their loot leads to conflict and PVP is much more dangerous than PVE, look at the numbers its why there is a larger number of deaths for bandits compared to survivors when adjusted for total counts. Your statement is a blatent lie and reeks of butt hurt.

Also if your so good at combat you would not act like there are 50/50 odds, you never fight straight up IRL and you don't in DayZ either. The only time you have a 50/50 is when you blindly bump into some sorry son of a bitch inside a building or something and you both try to get a shot off at the same time. This only happens when you are blind or alone, real combat runs a 90/10 split I would say, one side knows there is going to be fight the other side has their thumb in the ass while they wait to catch a bullet with their temple. Adding skins won't change this, people will continue to snipe/ambush and groups will continue killing people not in their group.

Edited August 7, 2012 by xXI Mr Two IXx

[mattressi 3]

Playing as a bandit is the easiest and fastest way to aquire all of the kit you need/want, it is not the easiest or safest way to play. Actively looking for other players or their loot leads to conflict and PVP is much more dangerous than PVE, look at the numbers its why there is a larger number of deaths for bandits compared to survivors when adjusted for total counts. Your statement is a blatent lie and reeks of butt hurt.

This would be true in real life, where people don't respawn. Bandits would be involved in the more conflicts than survivors and would eventually die whether because they were outskilled, unlucky or hunted (or, of course, attacked by other bandits). In game, however, there are so many bandits relative to the number of survivors, that survivors are likely to be in only slightly less conflicts than bandits (unless the survivor spends their time hiding), but the conflicts that they are in will always be someone else shooting at them first, which will usually result in them dying. PVE is a load of crap - survivors don't just turn off PVP mode; they are just as likely to get murdered if they choose to PVE instead of PVP (hell, I'd say they're even more likely to be murdered).

On top of that, as you said, it takes less time to get gear as a bandit. As a survivor, you need to SLOWLY crawl your way through populated areas, avoid other people (because most will KOS you), get your basic gear and then flee to the wild. This takes much longer than for a bandit who simply goes and gets the first gun he can find, then promptly shoots anyone he sees. If he dies, it doesn't take all that long to get another gun and he starts again. When a survivor dies with gear, they die having spent at the very least 30 minutes (usually much more, depending on time of day and server population) crawling around to get it. It's slow and it's boring and then you get either get shot by some knob on a hill with a sniper rifle because he's bored or you get shot by someone who you see in front of you, ask if they're friendly, only to have them turn, see you and kill you while you're typing/talking.

Currently I have no incentive to play this game. I don't like KOSing (previously, KOSing wasn't the point of the game) and I don't like spending ages crawling everywhere to get basic gear, only to be killed by someone for no reason (they never even take my gear). I can't see why anyone who doesn't want to play as a KOS/DM bandit would play this - for all that people say bandit identifiers would ruin the game and take away the choice, right now the choice is either KOS, live alone in the woods or die within an hour, after spending that hour crawling. There's no real choice at all.

If you think playing as a survivor is easier, go try it. Try NOT shooting everyone you see on sight and only shooting if you have actual reason to believe they aren't friendly (eg, they don't respond to you in direct). See if you last longer and get better gear by doing the "safe" (ROFL) option of "PVE" (as if you can isolate it from people PVPing you). I'll bet that you get much better gear and live much longer by hiding somewhere and shooting people on sight, then taking their stuff.

[JulieMeyers 78]

According to the official dayzmod.com's statistics there are 133,392 bandits and around 666000 survivors right now. Are bandits really a PROBLEM? They're part of the game. I play a friendly character in the game and I hardly ever get killed. Perhaps you guys are living in Cherno 24/7? It seems you're doing something wrong. Just be careful and keep away from hotspots on the map. It's simple to stay alive.

If you see a guy on a mountain aiming towards a city - kill him. It's a bandit. Never run up to somebody with a gun yelling FRIENDLY.

[bazbake 456]

@xXI Mr Two IXx

Banditry is easy mode. You know this for a fact. That's why you're so afraid of bandit IDs, because you can't handle actual PvP.

Also if your so good at combat you would not act like there are 50/50 odds, you never fight straight up IRL and you don't in DayZ either.

If you believed this, you wouldn't care about bandit IDs -- survivors would never see you because of your ninja leetness. But we both know you don't. The fact that you're still arguing instead of shrugging and going with bandit IDs is proof that all you have is anonymity and the survivors' fear of a murder tally for shooting you first.

@JulieMeyers

1/4th of the players are bandits. The number of players increased 31% in two weeks. The number of bandits increased 36%. The number of murders increased 50%. Not only are bandits increasing at a faster rate than new players, the number of murders that bandits are committing is improving even faster. People aren't just converting to banditry at a rate faster than new players can replace them, they're killing even more people.

Truth.

[JulieMeyers 78]

@JulieMeyers

1/4th of the players are bandits. The number of players increased 31% in two weeks. The number of bandits increased 36%. The number of murders increased 50%. Not only are bandits increasing at a faster rate than new players, the number of murders that bandits are committing is improving even faster. People aren't just converting to banditry at a rate faster than new players can replace them, they're killing even more people.

Truth.

Interesting. Source of statistics, please?

[bazbake 456]

EDIT: Here it is.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/62881-what-has-changed-the-dayz-player-mentality/page__st__40#entry602372

Scroll up for the actual data.

Edited August 7, 2012 by BazBake

[Seiseki 16]

Trust cannot be gained unless people are given a chance.

People will never be given a chance with the current system.

This is just a way of saying bandits should not have to stand up for their playstyle.

[lemon65 2]

Completely agree with you

I second that ! ... everyone just shoots on sight ..... and IRL there are ways to tell if someone is bad (the way they, talk, act , dress , the people they are with ) ..... but in a video game its a little hard to show personality in a player model

[JulieMeyers 78]

I second that ! ... everyone just shoots on sight ..... and IRL there are ways to tell if someone is bad (the way they, talk, act , dress , the people they are with ) ..... but in a video game its a little hard to show personality in a player model

The problem cant be narrowed down to just an indicator. People will still kill on sight. For example; you cant holster your gun. You point it where you look and then you're just a click away from having better gear (depending on who you look at ofc). I dont know about you but I feel threatened when somebody is pointing a gun at my head.

Murders will also drop once people have more stuff to do. Once you have your end-game gear there's not much to do but kill other players.

However, this is not what the thread is about. It's about the coming modelchange.

Edited August 7, 2012 by JulieMeyers

[Sinvex 38]

Smells like speshul needs. How many times can you miss the point in one thread?

No... The point isn't to make everyone trust each other. That would be stupid and destroy everything that DayZ is. The goal is to give some indication as to whether a player is a bandit/murderer or not...

You have a perfect indication, If you have a hole in the back of your head he was a bandit, if not he wasn't. Either way its your fault for trusting the guy. I think you're the one riding the short bus if you think that's going to fix anything. In such an environment you really can't trust anybody by default, go figure it would be the same in DayZ

[Sinvex 38]

I agree , bandits are just too chicken to collect their own goodies themselves.

they wait in the woods until some new guy gets in and collects a few items then they kill them for them.

poor bandits , looks like you will have to get close to some zombies yourself.

Pretty sure it has less to do with being chicken and more to do with there is literally no end game aside from pvp.... if you havent figured that out yet you've probably played for all of 5 minutes.

[Sinvex 38]

QQ bandits...QQ...

Oh, that felt good!

You guys have been playing easy mode for nearly 2 months now. Just killing indiscriminately and getting away with it. Now when survivors see you, you are fucked!

http://youtu.be/UmvnXKRfdb8

Cry moar?