Knockdown

[abysmal 2]

Many people have expressed this before, but I think knockdown is literally the most frustrating lapse of game design in the entire mod. The game is already highly punishing to solo players, but this seems really excessive in every sense. There is nothing enjoyable about a routine encounter with a zombie randomly forcing you to watch for half a minute as you die with literally no chance of recourse. It turns close quarters engagements with the Zeds into non-gameplay where your skill and your equipment are absolutely meaningless, and it almost always seems to spell certain, unavoidable death when it happens.

I'm not a 'carebear' player who wants to dumb down the game in any way, and I am all for widespread PvP and ultralethal zombies, but I think this mechanic needs a serious overhaul if not outright removal. What does everyone else think?

[tajin 17]

I really like the fact that the game has some aspects that encourage you to try and group up with others instead of just mindlessly gunning everyone down.

Also, as far as "skill" is concerned. If you're skilled... then you dont get into close quarter combat with zombies if you can avoid it. (and most of the time you easily can)

[bondematt 0]

Zombies would be completely non-lethal if knockdown was removed. Right now the only way they can kill an experienced player is if they get a lucky shot in, without this they would be walking hug machines that make you eat food a little faster.

[Freyar 8]

Many people have expressed this before' date=' but I think knockdown is literally the most frustrating lapse of game design in the entire mod. [/quote']

And you made another thread about it? ;)

[tpenn 9]

Zombies would be completely non-lethal if knockdown was removed. Right now the only way they can kill an experienced player is if they get a lucky shot in' date=' without this they would be walking hug machines that make you eat food a little faster.

[/quote']

Well it's also common the first hit could cause bleeding, now if you've got to dispatch of quite a few zed's and you're low on blood or it takes you too long it's quite possible you'll bleed out or fall unconscious.

That being said the #1 rule of game design is never ever NEVER take away control from the player over their avatar for any extended period of time. Good game design has shown there are many clever ways of achieving realism without "stun" effects (such as slow-down effects instead). Guess it's a good thing this isn't a game right?

[tajin 17]

That being said the #1 rule of game design is never ever NEVER take away control from the player over their avatar for any extended period of time.

I can still yet at my pal over TS to save my sorry ass. That means I'm still in control! :P

Number one rule for surviving against zombie hordes in DayZ is to always immediatly run into the next building. Then as long as you have enough ammo, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Hell... if the building is big enough, you can even sit there and bandage youself easily while they slowly shuffle towards you.

[Felix (DayZ) 21]

Is your frustration with the pure random nature of getting knocked down, or with the knockdown itself?

If its the former are you suggesting something less random and more sequential in phases before you're fully knocked down and immobile?

[orbital 10]

Felt the knockdown a few times and it is often a oneshot zombie attack, atleast if your alone.

My latest rage moment was this morning;

At the NW Airfield (alone), all thinkable survival supplies on me and full health.

after 2 minutes of exploring, sneaky sneaky style, ONE military zombie knocks me down. The hourglass takes forever and when I finally awake i got less than 1000 blood, unable to stand and a endless cycle trying to equip the weapon.

-short trip to the Airfield... and it wasn't even a player kill.

Frustration level is extreme in such a case and I really want to blame the engine or the timer for being too long :(

[swayzesghost 14]

Taking control away from the player is the #1 cardinal sin in game design for me. Knockdown needs to be completely altered.

Spawned the other day, knocked down in one hit by a teleporting zombie, drained to 6000 blood. Killed myself to respawn.

[abysmal 2]

Also' date=' as far as "skill" is concerned. If you're skilled... then you dont get into close quarter combat with zombies if you can avoid it. (and most of the time you easily can)

[/quote']

This means that a skilled player will therefore never be in a situation where he can be killed at all, and therefore never require blood or meat, or even guns. The most skilled player by this definition would find a building to hide in, and never leave or expose himself to danger.

Yes, it ultimately is the player's fault for getting close to them, but that doesn't mean it is a balanced attack by any means, in the same way that one shouldn't expect the player to be a hermit and avoid the sight of any players to avoid being killed.

The game shouldn't punish solo players just for being solo. Being in groups already has huge advantages, and it sucks terribly when I get KOd right after spawning just because I haven't had the chance to group up yet.

[drakenof 9]

This KO system is probably the most awful choice in the entire mod.

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

I agree with panther completely. and the point of the game is not to force a player to do anything, if you want to solo go ahead you shouldnt have artificial advantages due to a game mechanic for grouping up. also as people already said you cant always get a group even if you want to, language and time constraints to play among other reasons why people might not be able to get group going. and on its own losing full control of you character for a long period of time is just not a great machins especially when its random and unpredictable especially in a bugy mod with zombies doing all kinds of weird shit. game should be hard and even cruel but not this way, its unfair in a sense that game has power over you thus taking away your "freedom".

[tuchmaipp 2]

i disagree, somewhat. knockdown is a pretty sweet feature that actually makes the sight of a charging zombie quite scary. the real problem imo is the zombie's speed combined with its erratic movements. they are literally cheetahs which makes taking them down very difficult if youre outdoors and dont feel like back pedaling half the map. if either the speed or erratic movements were toned down then it would be the player's fault for letting himself get 1 hit ko'd.

HAVE A RAGE STORY - zambies get alerted so i run into a small shed. a zombie running for the door runs past the wall at my back and LANDS A CHARGE through the wall before he redirects back to the front door. WOW did i cuss up a storm.

[LanceUppercut 7]

i actually like the knockdown effect, it makes zombies a lot more dangerous

[Killdozer (DayZ) 0]

I really like the fact that the game has some aspects that encourage you to try and group up with others instead of just mindlessly gunning everyone down.

Also' date=' as far as "skill" is concerned. If you're skilled... then you dont get into close quarter combat with zombies if you can avoid it. (and most of the time you easily can)

[/quote']

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Without knockdown I would have less hesitation in approaching multiple zeds on my own. It's not just driving me to group with others but also be more cautious and more aware of my surroundings.

[rocket 16567]

Totally agree that it needs tweaking.

However, having had my arse kicked a few times in real life, I think people don't realize how easy it is to get knocked out - particularly if you are holding something (i.e. a rifle). One lucky hit to your head is all it takes.

I'm not really aiming for realism here, but authenticity would be nice. I.e. one determined person (in this case lacking brain function and highly aggressive) can really fuck your day up quite nicely.

I want to do raychecks and then have the hits dependent on positioning (behind you higher chance of knockdown), and factor blood pressure into it - but that requires an overhaul of one of the mechanics that actually works (well technically anyway), so its not super high on my list right now. And thats more CPU cycle taken up when i only have 30% of the frame for ingame scripts. If it was done in the source of the game itself... well... different story :P

[LordFrost 3]

I've been owned by knockdowns quite a few times, almost as often as I got sniped by bandits, really.

And honestly? I like it that way.

Imagine for a second, if rocket took the knockdown out.

Teaming up would not just be risky and mean only a part of the loot is yours, it would also not serve a purpose. In fact, it would defeat the purpose.

You may get hit and require bandages other players have looted, you may also have to share weapons and ammo other players saw first. Not to mention: If you do find something epic, they may just put one in the back of your head for good measure.

For what would this happen? For nothing. There's no situation where more people making noise could benefit you at all.

Suddenly, solo play would be the only viable play.

Next people would get bored, sit on rooftops, snipe newbies and wonder how it came to this.

The knockdown forces you to either seek support of allies, or make intelligent decisions about engagements. Do I shoot now, or do I pass on the lootable building? Do I run into the building and risk agitating more zombies as I do? The list goes on. This consideration would not be there anymore, if zombies could not pose a legitimate threat. Yes, even when the threat comes from a comparatively cheap knockdown move.

[rocket 16567]

The experience at the moment is very digital - with extremely simplistic animations that were configured very quickly and configuring animations in RV is not my specialty. With attention from a specialist, some more Mocap time, optimization in other areas to free up CPU - I can easily achieve the effect that is needed. I.e. something more fluid, which will convey a much more authentic experience and probably also make it seem much more scary with pretty much the same effect.

But that would be a late alpha task - gotta get the things not working right first. Like hearing peoples thoughts and ideas on it though, it's helpful.

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

I dont think people want it to be easier, on contrary I think zombies need to be harder but atm their difficulty is mainly due to their buginess and knockdown which are both annoying. People probably prefer getting killed by zombies due to getting overrun, running out of ammo, having slow reaction, bad strategy, miscalculation, surprise/unexpectedness and plain bad luck which is somewhat a combination of everything like some would say "you make your own luck". The things you can improve on, you cant improve on random knockouts.

Im not complaining, the mod atm is already better than any game i have played in a long time(no bullshit) so even if it stayed at 1.5.4 I would probably still play it for very very long, until I would have completely nothing to do. But if we can discuss and even suggest something to devs and they might like it why not? I never completely trust my own judgement, especially on things I have no experience making so what I have is just ideas which can or cant be useful. So maybe things suggested wont fit into the existing structure without needing restructuring/rebalancing the core ideas of the game. In that case the idea to add directional attack and blood pressure seem like a logical improvement to current mechanic, they do make sense and can be fun so yeah, either way I think rocket knows what he is doing.

Edited

[Metiphis 4]

When the zombies don't hit me through walls or floors, I don't mind knockdowns.

[LordFrost 3]

When the zombies don't hit me through walls or floors' date=' I don't mind knockdowns.

[/quote']

That I can root for, not to mention relate to.

I dont think people want it to be easier' date=' on contrary I think zombies need to be harder but atm their difficulty is mainly due to their buginess and knockdown which are both annoying. I wanna get killed by zombies due to getting overrun , running out of ammo, having slow reaction, bad strategy, miscalculation, surprise/unexpectedness and ofc some bad luck.

Im not complaining really, the mod atm is already better than any game i have played in many years so if it stays at 1.5.4 I will probably still play it for very very long time until i have completely nothing to do. But if we can discuss and even suggest something to devs and they might like it why not? I dont really trust my own judgement completely and maybe knockdown has something I just dont see I can live with it np.

[/quote']

I'm absolutely not saying anything against brainstorming - quite the contrary!

But let's face it, there's quite a few folks who'd rather snipe newbies than make intelligent decisions. Let's not cater to them, that's all I'm really saying.

[lev 39]

I agree with keeping in knockdown for the various reasons expressed in this thread. Though I do agree a tweak should be necessary.

Perhaps tie the duration into the player's current blood level, so that higher blood = higher chance of lower duration of knockdown. Note my phrasing; this doesn't remove the chance of a 1 hit KO till death scenario but rather reduces it.

A side effect that this change does have is that lower blood players are now more likely die from being knocked down, but I suppose this is somewhat realistic as humans would suffer more in combat if they were injured vs if they were healthy. Game-play wise, it would also disadvantage lower blood players which can encourage team play more.

[rinaun 26]

Is this getting fixed/adjusted soon? It really does make the game frustrating and unplayable to a point. This, and the screen effects for low blood. The pulsing every time makes me just hit restart.....at 60% blood it's already grey.

Edit: Take your time. Too many game-breaking bugs to work on first, and I'll be taking a break until this game gets more tuned. Bleeding out from getting knocked out about 100 times was just too much for my gamer spirit to handle :(

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

I guess the problem boils down to zombies being bugged, walking and hitting through walls, server laggs etc. This all leads to some frustrating situations where you get killed even tho you did everything right, but didn't account for bugs or lags, so this knockdown effect becomes that more annoying, but once those bugs get fixed I think it's gonna be alright, anyway this effect should definitely stay in the game imho.