Griefer, Hacker, and ALT+F4 - Not yet another thread

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

THIS IS NOT YOUR AVERAGE "SOLUTION" THREAD

This is the resolve we need right here. Out of the thousands of threads with this plea... "fix the hackers" or "fix the alt+f4'ers".

Give us the means.

We already know what doesn't work or is having little effect, or IMO is likely to cause more problems than it will solve;

- Battleye (What a joke. It's worse than PunkBuster, which is already the worst thing ever)

- The ARMA 2 engine's ability to allow heavy modification in just about every way

- Recording data to try and get a computer to figure out who is doing dodgy shit and ban them (but hopefully nobody else)

so, I made this post in another thread but here it is again, slightly revised and modified:

Like all other things in life, there are always rules and laws. I know, that while many of them are "made to be broken", most people can discern the difference between "right and wrong" or the "50 shades of grey". There should simply be rules in place where, if enough evidence is captured of players performing unsportsmanlike behaviour can be banned through submission and review. Tracking data and making life hard for people who have kids, run a business, have unexpected visitors, internet trouble (thanks, rainy weather) is really just crazy.

If the community gets fed up enough by this behaviour that "can't be fixed because of X reason" then give us the means and power to do it ourselves.

Then and only then will we stop seeing endless threads about the topic, and endless posts of Rocket repeating the same thing over and over again to everyone. Give us the ability to submit these screenshots and videos, and a way to more easily identify a player by name since everyone looks like a fucking clone of the next guy (I love APB Reloaded customization... you can't get any two players confused), and follow up by banning the individuals who cause the problem. When you die, you should be presented with your killers name, not for realism but for policing hackers that insta-kill entire servers worth of people from some place you can't even see them. For reporting the players that constantly seek to kill on sight, anyone and everyone, not for a non-gameplay realted reason but merely to grief.

Quite simply if someone submits a video recording of a player displaying poor behaviour, like ALT+F4 or server hopping to move covertly, griefing and hacking players, or anything else deemed inappropriate... get enough "strikes" they get banned for life. Simple as that. No need for any more "solutions". Give us the power and the means, and the hackers and griefers and ALT+F4'ers will all be gone. If the community truly hates it so much, we will make it happen if you give us the means.

The data collection system is still going to need review on a case by case basis for people getting falsely hackusated by the server bot anyway, so why not use the man-power more proactively and hand-ban the hand-full of douchebags that ruin it for everyone else. The biggest deterrent for playing in a shitty way will be having a real and absolute consequence.

~Sol

Edited July 31, 2012 by Sol

[Gogster (DayZ) 626]

It's similar to video evidence on the PsB site, which the community voted for. I'm not against the idea, but it would need to be moderated and controlled.

PunkBuster, which is already the worst thing ever)

No it isn't, you just don't know how to use it properly.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

No it isn't, you just don't know how to use it properly.

Not me, GamersFirst.

I guess "worst" isn't really accurate... should be "most useless, except for Battleye".

~Sol

Edited July 30, 2012 by Sol

[Uncle Gapey 16]

When you die, you should be presented with your killers name, not for realism but for policing hackers that insta-kill entire servers worth of people from some place you can't even see them.

This isn't a proactive solution, or really a solution at all, but definitely a step in the right direction! At the very least let the effin admins see kill data.

For reporting the players that constantly seek to kill on sight, anyone and everyone, not for a gameplay realted reason but merely to grief.

I strongly disagree on this one.

... we will make it happen if you give us the means.

The data collection system is still going to need review on a case by case basis for people getting falsely hackusated by the server bot anyway, so why not use the man-power more proactively and hand-ban the hand-full of douchebags that ruin it for everyone else. The biggest deterrent for playing in a shitty way will be having a real and absolute consequence.

Again, definitely a step in the right direction. I think the exploits/hax should just be patched out of the game. I don't know enough about the Arma2 engine though - Arma2 could have absolute shit client<->server code that was slapped together that would have to be completely rewritten to get rid of the 'sploits.

Eventually someone will read and acknowledge one of the thousands of hax posts (right?).

[tced 45]

good post, agreed. Give the Admins the needed tweaks in the mod... such as "who killed who" text, ether after you die or on the screen for all to see & we can better manage the servers by following similar guidelines that were mentioned in the OP. This is not about Admin domination, it's about help to combat hacking & abuse that is destroying the mod we've come to enjoy & are paying hard earned money for servers to run.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

This isn't a proactive solution, or really a solution at all, but definitely a step in the right direction! At the very least let the effin admins see kill data.

I strongly disagree on this one.

Again, definitely a step in the right direction. I think the exploits/hax should just be patched out of the game. I don't know enough about the Arma2 engine though - Arma2 could have absolute shit client<->server code that was slapped together that would have to be completely rewritten to get rid of the 'sploits.

Eventually someone will read and acknowledge one of the thousands of hax posts (right?).

Out of curiosity why do you disagree that grief behaviour is not acceptable.

I can understand shooting two guys in the middle of the night while hiding in a bush... because they had a motorcycle and you didn't (true story bro)... but killing players for nothing other than to grief should be "illegal" and a bannable offense. In APB Reloaded, you can smash other players around all you want... it's allowed by the game engine and perfectly "legal" from a non-exploit point of view... but guess what, it's not socially accepted and you can be banned from the game if someone records you being an asshole for no reason. On the flip side, if you're trolling someone because they are (for example) about to commit a crime and you want to stop them, it's perfectly legal.

I'm not saying to ban people who kill on sight... I'm saying ban people who kill on sight for non-game related purposes (IE killing noobs on the beach for a bandage, or stacking cars in Cherno and flattening the tires, only to snipe anyone who comes within 50 feet of it merely for "fun".

I'm keen to hear your reasoning.

~Sol

Edited July 30, 2012 by Sol

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

This can't die already...

Surely we can't be the only ones who think this is a step to take in the right direction.

~Sol

[zipper 69]

Why do you care? You know the game will be transitioning to standalone. I understand how frustrating these types of people can be, but there is no reason to "ban someone for life" because they griefed you or alt+f4'd out of the game. It just needs to be fixed so they can't do those things. You can't ban someone for taking advantage of a game mechanic that should have been fixed by the devs months ago. As long as it is fixed in the standalone game, I don't really care what goes on in the DayZ mod.

Edit: Just saw that you think people who kill on sight fall into the griefer category. The entire value of your thread just died. If you can't figure out how to deal with the shoot on sight problem, by yourself, you don't deserve to be playing the game, let alone making suggestions for it.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Zipper -82ndAB-

[teejayd 8]

Why do you care? You know the game will be transitioning to standalone. I understand how frustrating these types of people can be, but there is no reason to "ban someone for life" because they griefed you or alt+f4'd out of the game. It just needs to be fixed so they can't do those things. You can't ban someone for taking advantage of a game mechanic that should have been fixed by the devs months ago. As long as it is fixed in the standalone game, I don't really care what goes on in the DayZ mod.

Edit: Just saw that you think people who kill on sight fall into the griefer category. The entire value of your thread just died. If you can't figure out how to deal with the shoot on sight problem, by yourself, you don't deserve to be playing the game, let alone making suggestions for it.

Such analysis would be helpful to ArmA2 itself, and the upcoming ArmA3. I'm willing to say that most of people here never played a match of domination, warfare, or just coop'd with some bros on some awesome ArmA2 missions.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

Why do you care? You know the game will be transitioning to standalone. I understand how frustrating these types of people can be, but there is no reason to "ban someone for life" because they griefed you or alt+f4'd out of the game. It just needs to be fixed so they can't do those things. You can't ban someone for taking advantage of a game mechanic that should have been fixed by the devs months ago. As long as it is fixed in the standalone game, I don't really care what goes on in the DayZ mod.

Edit: Just saw that you think people who kill on sight fall into the griefer category. The entire value of your thread just died. If you can't figure out how to deal with the shoot on sight problem, by yourself, you don't deserve to be playing the game, let alone making suggestions for it.

I care for the same reason the dev team cares.

Also, great way to also not read what I said. On more than one occasion, this now being the third, I said: People who kill on sight for non-game realted purposes. Great way to look like a jackass, especially telling me I don't "deserve" top play the game? Who the fuck do you think you are mate?

~Sol

[Uncle Gapey 16]

Out of curiosity why do you disagree that grief behaviour is not acceptable.

It's honestly just my preference. There are strong arguments for both sides of the debate on this topic. In my opinion, nobody should be banned for using available functionality in a game (that's in a game, excluding third-party software and hax, scripts, etc.). To me, dupers should not be banned, nor should griefers. If it isn't an intentional part of the game then I feel it should be handled properly via hard-coded restrictions and abilities (inabilities?). I think that telling players "don't use this in-game functionality to your advantage - we'll fix it eventually... maybe... go away" is more immoral than the people duping gear in tents. I personally make one copy of my gear (most of it anyway) in the same tent each time I upgrade a piece. If the teleportation/nuke/etc. exploits weren't the #1 cause of my death, I wouldn't do this.

Back to the exploits and hax. According to the admins of the servers I play on, there is no way for them to tell who killed who. They don't have restricted access to their servers either - they literally remote-desktop into their server instance and have full access to all files. A step in the right direction would be to allow admins to see death logs. How else will they know who to ban when 45 people all die at once? There is much info that, if presented to admins, would potentially cut down on hax use. Sudden location changes (the teleport hack being the worst one)? Servers are already keeping track of player locations somehow. So something like this might help immensely:

if calcDistance(player.LocationOLD, player.LocationNEW) > maxPossibleDistanceCovered {

teleportPlayer(player, player.LocationOLD);

logPlayerOut(player);

} else {

player.LocationOLD = player.LocationNEW;

}

The above would need refinement (what's the current server-side player-location polling rate versus how long it typically takes you to die when a haxfag teleports you?), but it's better than nothing. It ultimately comes down to how much control Rocket/devs have over the server<->client code. Again, just being able to browse death messages would point a very obvious finger at who's screwing around. A full 50-slot server is teleported to the NW airfiend and everyone who isn't quick enough with Alt+F4 gets killed. One person is alive and perfectly fine, and he joined 5 minutes prior to the teleport? Bingo.

Sandbox games like this are my favorite. I love APB, EvE, etc. Killing nubs on the beach, especially now that respawn was taken out (which was a super terrible idea to implement pre-exploit-patching) is certainly an asshole thing to do though. I agree with ya there. That said, from a realism/RP perspective your character has no idea what that nub is carrying in their pack (this is a pretty lame justification, but think about it for a moment). Also, that beach nub is my direct competition - I'll be damned if he gets to the supermarket and grabs the tent before I do! Again, these aren't great justifications. I just don't think anyone should be banned for poor sportsmanship. I also feel that it adds a level of "oh shit!" when you fear for your life from the get-go. Let's face it, the zombies are difficult to shoot given their crazy chase-pathing, lag, and other bugs, but they are by no means threatening. Just run and you'll never get touched? I like the extra threat of players.

In the end, hax/scripts/3rd-party shit needs to be fixed before anything else is done. Then, in-game exploits need to be fixed. Then, after the integrity of the game experience has been solidified, new features can be added/tweaked. My guess is that Rocket/devs complete lack of noticeable action regarding hax is due to one of the following:

1) They just don't have access to the code that needs to be modified.

2) DayZ is simply being fleshed-out as a concept for now, using the Arma2 engine as it's currently the best/easiest choice. No resources are being put into the war against hax, as DayZ will ultimately be a standalone, or a mod for another game/engine that will have its own unique set of vulnerabilities/exploits/hax. Said resources would thus be "wasted".

3) They honestly feel that game-ruining hax are a rare occurrence (which would be complete ignorance, and I like to think Rocket/devs are intelligent fellows) and not worth the time nor effort.

Thing is, there's no guarantee that DayZ will ever be anything but a great Arma2 mod. I want my current favorite game to be nice and playable now though!

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

I guess I just have a different moral perspective to you.

Just becasue it's there doesn't mean you HAVE TO do it... I personally prefer to control myself, knowing that all I am going to do is make someone else rage, which I simply don't find fun at all to do.

If I'm worried they have something I don't then sure as fuck I'll shoot them if I don't think I can get them to cooperate. Making "friends" in DayZ is far more beneficial than shooting everyone on sight... simply because strength in numbers. Between myself and two other friends we have managed to fend off several "leet" players because we had more people than they did.

At the end of the day, regardless of what any of us feel should be a bannable offense, I still think having a submission/review system would be far more effective than anything proposed so far, and from the lack of genuine opposition in the thread here I think most of you guys agree (aside from our moral standpoint differences).

*EDIT*

I just realized I left a crucial "non" out of my original post.... no wonder there are a few butthurts.

~Sol

Edited July 31, 2012 by Sol

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Look at the butt hurt displayed over people being killed now, do you think this would somehow stop if people had another avenue to seek revenge against their killer?

People would be reporting people for griefing/killing all the time it wouldn't be localised to people griefing and thus would be completely useless. Also if your not teleported it can sometimes be hard to tell if you were killed via a hacker or just a single sniper round to the dome. So you would have people reporting unseen killers as hackers.

Also any type of tag system greatly takes away from the game experiance as it makes it to easy to spot players so you either get crap gameplay and the ability to identify AltF4 or no ability to identify them. This should be patched out and I'm sure it will at somepoint in development.

Testing is not meant to be stable and playable, playability/stability should not factor into dev decisions at this point.

[Ribano 46]

can they not do this automatically? i'm not any good at code but surely they can put somthing in that works like damage taken at 08.32.24 , player disconnects 08.32.26 and then issue a strike depending on the time an engagement is active compared to when a player logs?

[Uncle Gapey 16]

...playability/stability should not factor into dev decisions at this point.

This made me >:

...surely they can put somthing in that works like damage taken at 08.32.24 , player disconnects 08.32.26 and then issue a strike depending on the time an engagement is active compared to when a player logs?

That's a fantastic idea. Just give folks some sort of debuff when they take any kind of damage. If you log with that debuff, you come back to gender select.

In fact, if the "takes damage" and "disconnects" events are currently logged to the server log, I could write a simple parser that would read this info then issue any server-side command. This is how all BFBC2/BF3 server tools work.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Wouldn't stop people logging out before they take damage, ie run in aggro a bunch of Z's then logg to make them all despawn. Or see another player and log instantly. There is no way to stop altF4 without a timer that keeps a body ingame after log out for a set amount of time. This may not be possible within the Arma2 engine through a hack/mod but it should be something that can be implemented into a standalone version.

[zipper 69]

I care for the same reason the dev team cares.

Also, great way to also not read what I said. On more than one occasion, this now being the third, I said: People who kill on sight for non-game realted purposes. Great way to look like a jackass, especially telling me I don't "deserve" top play the game? Who the fuck do you think you are mate?

~Sol

The mere fact that you think there is a difference in people that kill on sight for game related, and unrelated purposes is a joke.

I never said you can't play the game, I said if you can't figure out how to solve the shoot on sight problem by yourself, you don't deserve to be playing. There is a difference. It is also my opinion, and I am entitled to it. If you don't like it too damn bad.

This is not real life. This is a video game. If you have such a GIANT problem with people shooting on sight, go play something else.

You want to BAN people that shoot on sight. How many times has Rocket himself said he will not punish people for playing the game how they want to? And you suggest an idea that these people be banned? lol wtf. And you call me a jackass haha. This is a FPS with zombies. If you want happy go lucky co-op fun go play vanilla Arma.

Like all other things in life, there are always rules and laws. I know, that while many of them are "made to be broken", most people can discern the difference between "right and wrong" or the "50 shades of grey". There should simply be rules in place where, if enough evidence is captured of players performing unsportsmanlike behaviour can be banned through submission and review.

Bandits are a part of the game. Just because they don't fit into your play style doesn't mean they should be banned. Open your eyes to the fact that this is a completely open game with no rules. Of all the ideas that have been presented in this forum to fix the shoot on sight "problem", this is by far the dumbest and most extreme idea yet.

Rocket: I don't want to punish people for playing the game how they want to.

Sol: People who don't play the game how I want them to need to be banned.

You see the problem with your idea yet?

Edit: Just realized it isn't the dumbest idea. Someone presented an idea that would make people wait 20 minutes per kill once they died. That has to be the dumbest one yet. This is still up there though.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Zipper -82ndAB-

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

The mere fact that you think there is a difference in people that kill on sight for game related, and unrelated purposes is a joke.

I never said you can't play the game, I said if you can't figure out how to solve the shoot on sight problem by yourself, you don't deserve to be playing. There is a difference. It is also my opinion, and I am entitled to it. If you don't like it too damn bad.

This is not real life. This is a video game. If you have such a GIANT problem with people shooting on sight, go play something else.

You want to BAN people that shoot on sight. How many times has Rocket himself said he will not punish people for playing the game how they want to? And you suggest an idea that these people be banned? lol wtf. And you call me a jackass haha. This is a FPS with zombies. If you want happy go lucky co-op fun go play vanilla Arma.

Bandits are a part of the game. Just because they don't fit into your play style doesn't mean they should be banned. Open your eyes to the fact that this is a completely open game with no rules. Of all the ideas that have been presented in this forum to fix the shoot on sight "problem", this is by far the dumbest and most extreme idea yet.

Rocket: I don't want to punish people for playing the game how they want to.

Sol: People who don't play the game how I want them to need to be banned.

You see the problem with your idea yet?

Edit: Just realized it isn't the dumbest idea. Someone presented an idea that would make people wait 20 minutes per kill once they died. That has to be the dumbest one yet. This is still up there though.

So, in other words... you think that people who intentionally seek to ruin other peoples fun, and basically be a total jerk-off on purpose is perfectly fine?

Says a lot about your personality. Enjoy being forever alone.

Oh and while we're on the subject, go and fuck yourself :)

Look at the butt hurt displayed over people being killed now, do you think this would somehow stop if people had another avenue to seek revenge against their killer?

People would be reporting people for griefing/killing all the time it wouldn't be localised to people griefing and thus would be completely useless. Also if your not teleported it can sometimes be hard to tell if you were killed via a hacker or just a single sniper round to the dome. So you would have people reporting unseen killers as hackers.

Also any type of tag system greatly takes away from the game experiance as it makes it to easy to spot players so you either get crap gameplay and the ability to identify AltF4 or no ability to identify them. This should be patched out and I'm sure it will at somepoint in development.

Testing is not meant to be stable and playable, playability/stability should not factor into dev decisions at this point.

So uh, this system works for countless other games avilable right now on the market... why do you think it's not going to work for DayZ? Why would it be useless? Of course there is always going to be some asswipe who will report a perfectly innocent player... thing is without video evidence to back it up it simply gets thrown out. You seem to be missing the key point of providing evidence to back up any claims.

I also never said "put a tag over someones head" I said, (read carefully please) when you die... as in, dead... you will get a message that says "you were killed by XXXX"... not any other time. Not when you're alive.... not when you aim at someone... when you die. Comprende?

Lastly, just because this is a test doesn't excuse people from doing the wrong thing. Just because the police aren't standing right next to you, doesn't mean stealing is fine. I think people like you who merely try to find the most negative reply to make about stopping hackers and griefers must do it themselves... clearly you are part of the problem if you can't see any positivity in trying to stop it. You are your mate who posted above should go kiss in the closet and make little grefier babies.

~Sol

Edited August 1, 2012 by Sol

[xximrtwoixx 104]

So uh, this system works for countless other games avilable right now on the market... why do you think it's not going to work for DayZ? Why would it be useless? Of course there is always going to be some asswipe who will report a perfectly innocent player... thing is without video evidence to back it up it simply gets thrown out. You seem to be missing the key point of providing evidence to back up any claims.

I also never said "put a tag over someones head" I said, (read carefully please) when you die... as in, dead... you will get a message that says "you were killed by XXXX"... not any other time. Not when you're alive.... not when you aim at someone... when you die. Comprende?

System won't work in ARMAII because players can change their name so this would require some type of modification to track CD Keys, (Are hidden by hackers anyway) this would mean adding/changing things that at this point provide no value to the project in terms of testing or future development if a completely different approach is going to be taken with stand alone.

It would be useless as there are no rules that establish a difference between a griefer and other players, also as this is totally subjective people's deffinitions are completely different. Add to this that people are angry when they die, apparently even when they have no kit which I don't understand, this system would be used to attempt revenge against their killer. As everyone knows everyone is elite and the only way they would ever die is to some hacker duche, and their tents only lose gear because of bugs/hacks never because they are hidden in some shit place.

Now we get to the good part, Video evidence of someone spawning in gear, alt f4, etc, but the server doesn't have tags so WTF are you going to do with the video? Did you really not even put enough thought into your own suggestion to realize what would have to be implemented for it to work properly? If your going to use any type of visual evidence then you need to be able to recagnize players to do so, thus tags would have to be on. I know you put in some trash about a pipe dream where we have player customization like apb reloaded (Doubt its possible in this engine) but even then whats going to happen via appeal are they going to do a line up of player skins vs video evidence? There would have to be tags and tags suck so thats what I said.

Don't get me wrong I hate exploits/hacks and think that they have a fairly large impact on current gameplay, I just think your idea is complete crap no offense. I understand that there is no point doing stop gaps if your trying to get to a standalone that would prevent them asap. It would be much easier to get rid of alt f4 via a log out timer, or get rid of the ability to spawn in all kinds of stuff by removing all that stuff from the engine, or removing some of the dependency on client side interaction.

Hell I'm for only official servers because I hate exploits hacks so much, alot of the community is completely against this but I think it is the only way to go when your character can persist from one server to the next there is to much room for exploitation with community servers.

[Squawk (DayZ) 0]

Out of curiosity why do you disagree that grief behaviour is not acceptable.

I can understand shooting two guys in the middle of the night while hiding in a bush... because they had a motorcycle and you didn't (true story bro)... but killing players for nothing other than to grief should be "illegal" and a bannable offense. In APB Reloaded, you can smash other players around all you want... it's allowed by the game engine and perfectly "legal" from a non-exploit point of view... but guess what, it's not socially accepted and you can be banned from the game if someone records you being an asshole for no reason. On the flip side, if you're trolling someone because they are (for example) about to commit a crime and you want to stop them, it's perfectly legal.

I'm not saying to ban people who kill on sight... I'm saying ban people who kill on sight for non-game related purposes (IE killing noobs on the beach for a bandage, or stacking cars in Cherno and flattening the tires, only to snipe anyone who comes within 50 feet of it merely for "fun".

I'm keen to hear your reasoning.

~Sol

So you think in a normal apocalyptic scenario someone wouldn't kill you on a beach for a bandage? Right. So that person can follow me from 300+ yards and watch and wait until he finds a Lee Enfield, snipe me, and take my gear? Yep. I'm killing him on the beach. Sorry you didn't spawn in a safehaven. Oh... wait, they didn't make those.

[zipper 69]

So, in other words... you think that people who intentionally seek to ruin other peoples fun, and basically be a total jerk-off on purpose is perfectly fine?

Says a lot about your personality. Enjoy being forever alone.

Oh and while we're on the subject, go and fuck yourself :)

I think people who want to make the game into something the game creator doesn't want, and has repeatedly said he will not change, are idiots. You have been posting on the forums for a bit now. You cannot tell me you haven't seen the countless video links and quotes from Rocket saying he would never punish someone for how they want to play the game, and yet you still make a suggestion that does so.

And on a side note, if people want to play the game just to kill players, that is their choice. Why you think you have the only right way to play the game is beyond me.

You sound like a whiny 4 year old. "Mommy, Tommy shot me and took my beans! Ban him mommy! Ban him!" I'm not sure what you expected when you installed this mod, but this is a FPS. You are either new to these types of games, or oblivious to how they work. Friendly fire isn't on so we can all sit around a campfire and hold hands. You need to adapt to the way the game is designed, not the other way around.

FYI, Zeds made a great point the other day in a post almost as whiny as this one. There is no such thing as killing for survival, or as you put it, killing for in game reasons. Any situation you put yourself in, there is always a better option for surviving aside from killing. So using your logical post, anyone who ever killed someone in game would be banned. Your idea would kill the game population from around 950k to about 5k in a matter of days. Thanks for suggesting an idea that would destroy the game. The rest of us appreciate it.