Why this mod is failing

[Sticker704 121]

I am a new guy in this game ,and seriously thinking i wasted my money on ARMA II + expansions.

Been playing for a couple of days and never met anybody who is prepared to help or just let me be on my own way. Shot on sight at the first glimpse ,with NOTHING in my hands or my pack.

Well i guess so much for survival horror game,you kids need to go back to COD or BF3.

Is it so hard to be friendly these days?

Yes it is. It's much, much easier to be a dick and shoot someone.

[Element47 2480]

I am a new guy in this game ,and seriously thinking i wasted my money on ARMA II + expansions.

Been playing for a couple of days and never met anybody who is prepared to help or just let me be on my own way. Shot on sight at the first glimpse ,with NOTHING in my hands or my pack.

Well i guess so much for survival horror game,you kids need to go back to COD or BF3.

Is it so hard to be friendly these days?

not these days. always. being friendly has always been harder and on many levels less rewarding. its the reality of our life. compare the actions and rewards of aid organisations and mercenaries in battle zones. in this regard, this mod remarkably succeeds at realism.

[ZomboWTF 527]

finding vehicles is the end game dude, also having people to play with over ts3 orsimilar, if you play alone, its geting boring quite fast, but thats in every game the same

oh yes, please QQ some more about the most awesome part of the game

[Guest]

Shooting people is my reward for collecting all the gear i need to survive. When i play games i play for my own experience , i have no interest if what i do upsets you , that's not my responsibility and it shouldn't be in an apocalypse scenario. If you can't handle the violence involved between people in this mod then my suggestion is to stop playing and stop trying to mould the game into hello kitty or other nicey nicey BS game. Accept it for what it is and move elsewhere.

I'd also like to add this , why does a game need a "endgame". A multiplayer game has never needed one , they are what you make of them. If you are looking for stats/safe zones/penalties then this is not the game for you.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Guest

[ken@thekab.com 37]

Is it so hard to be friendly these days?

Only if you want to survive.

Find people outside of the game, then join up with them. Most people move in groups and work together, but I guarantee most of them didn't meet in the game. Some did, they're the exception.

[j_riddell@live.com 32]

I am a new guy in this game ,and seriously thinking i wasted my money on ARMA II + expansions.

If you're not playing ARMA 2 and Expansions, then yes you did waste your money.

People need to understand that they did not pay for DayZ. DayZ is free.

Yes, Rocket has not the slightest clue why his mod became popular or how to appeal to a non-niche audience. It wasn't for the PvP. It was because gaming magazines talked about the psychology and ambience of role-playing survival against zombies.

And he needs to pack it in with the "this is art!" bullshit. That is the saddest excuse for not actually thinking about the player behaviour your rule changes will have on how the game is played. He should just admit it's Arma-II, and you should bring your own organised team if you want to compete, with a bait and switch wrapper suggesting it's about zombies.

This is your personal experience and not fact, or even remotely close to being fact as seen by the majority of players.

[rossasaur 5]

See if banditry was the equivalent of real world bandits in that they would rob people at gunpoint, then this would be interesting! I agree entirely with the original post, we need some more goals in game etc. to help take people away from the snipe noobs mentality that is corroding the community.

[Xianyu 820]

I love how people STILL think I'm complaining about bandits and that I should quit playing the game if I die so much. Jesus christ. Do any of these guys have basic reading comprehension?

Hey, morons! I'm talking about the indirect effect all banditry is having on the state of the game and it's future, not my person bandit experiences!

The new players are going to stop playing. Why? Because there's no help. Most people seem to forget how utterly fucking impossible this game is for a first-timer. I had trouble back when you started with a makarov. Now you start with a bloody flashlight. If I didn't know where weapons spawned (which I only found out because I LOOKED IT UP, NOT trial and error), then I would have died. And died over. And over. And over. And over. And over. And you get the fucking point.

And you know what? It's just not fun when the only options are A) Banditry. B) Respawn.

Already, the game is shown in the media (IE, youtube) as being more about 'SICK FUCKING GUNFIGHTS AND HELICOPTER RAIDS!!!!111!!!1!11!!!' than it is about carefully trying to navigate post apocalyptia. The people joining the game to shoot at other people are getting EXACTLY what they want. They get to shoot other players.

The people joining who are joining to play a zombie survival? They get to play Bandit-shot-and-respawn with a tiny side dish of zombie survival in between these bandit deaths. The new players that DO stick around quickly learn to shoot first, and never trust ANYONE. EVER.

Give that guy a blood transfusion? Fuck. No. Why? because once you're done, he has absolutely no need for you and will probably just shoot you to be a cunt.

And why does this happen? Because everyone is a bandit. It's the communities fault, and the fault of the game design. You know what? This is a fucking alpha. We're playtesters.

And I'm saying right now that this ALPHA doesn't fucking work as intended. Don't give me some BS about 'Oh but Rocket doesn't want to CONSTRAIN people!' Well guess what? He has.

By limiting mid-game content to finding loot and 'surviving' IE, sitting in a fucking corner to see who gets the HIGH SCORE!!!!11!!11!!! He has forced these ALMOST A MILLION players to make choices. The casual gamer says 'fuck it, it's more fun to shoot at people and be a cunt than to sit in the fucking corner and wait.'

This is a problem of both community and of game design.

But you know what? Rocket is trying to change the game.

Why the fuck aren't you?

[vukster@gmail.com 75]

"Why I'm failing this mod...."

there fixed it for you.

[badger05 41]

It's failing because hackers are shitting all over the game. Not to mention the game breaking graphical glitches and the knock out mechanic makes pvp a joke.

[Joelho 1]

If you can't kill ppl , just hide LOL

[Guest]

Yeah.. I get my "top gear" in an hour or two and after that there's absolutely nothing to do, I'll probably just run around randomly trying to find somebody to start shooting me.

Good thing that I played ArmA 2 before DayZ for around 150 hours so I know how to aim and kill people, most of the bandits don't even how to aim with a gun.

For example, yesterday somebody started shooting at me, I jumped to a bush, looked around, saw 4 guys trying to find & kill me and it took me less than 5 minutes to kill them all and I still had 12000 blood left.

It's fun, free gear from the idiots that decide to shoot me.

I still want more end game content though.

[FrankDaTank1218 (DayZ) 41]

First of all, I disagree with the OP, but he is NOT FUCKING CRYING ABOUT IT!!!! He is criticizing the game, and the only responses you guys can have is "stop crying", stop being condescending douchebags and do one of two things:

-Make a meaningful contribution to the thread with a sound argument or counterargument.

-STFU and go away to a thread were you can do choice #1.

Any criticism on this forum is met with "Stop QQ-ing", "stop crying", "shut up, its alpha", "l2play", or "you just suck". When did game forums stop having ANY intelligent people and start consisting 100% of people who act like dudebros or high school bullies?

The issue causing coast spawn killing is two-fold, first is the reward you get for high kills (which you shouldn't get in a game centered towards survival), its a shallow, "badge of honor" type of a reward, but its a reward, you get a high number and players hear a terrifying heartbeat when you murder a lot. The solution to this would be to not track player kills at all, no stats, no heartbeat, no cool bandit costume. The second issue is the lack of things to do as a well equipped player. This could be solved just by waiting for the game to be complete, when promises of other features and things like base-building come into play. But all in all, its still realistic, in an apocalypse situation there will be evil "bandits", and they will be predators, and like all smart predators they will target the weak, like noobs, it makes starting out more exciting (why should I be deterred by dying as a noob if I already had nothing to lose?). And if you do get on a server where all the spawns are relentlessly locked down by bandts, use another server until you have moved away from the coast, and/or you have become skilled/equipped enough to deal with the bandits.

Edited July 31, 2012 by FrankDaTank1218

[Apelgrandure 18]

QQ more. Crymore. Carebear. It's an alpha. Sneak. Harden up. tl;dr

Okay, now we got that out of the way, if you intended on posting any of those, a combination thereof, or something similiar, get the fuck out. Intelligent conversation only, and not your brownnosing bullshit.

This game is failing because bandits.

That's it. It's that simple.

But this stems from design problems, I guess. And basic human (read: fucktard) nature.

I don't have anything better to do, so I'm going to kill you.

So, you just snuck through the fringe towns. You got some sweet hardware from the deer stands or wherever it is you get your weapons. You have a sniper rifle, and an assault rifle in your backpack. You have matches, a hatchet, food, water, heat packs, morphine. You're all set. You have everything you'll ever need.

Now what?

You know what? nothing. There's not a single fucking thing to do once you get this gear. You can sneak past MORE zombies. Or you can shoot them. You can roam the wilderness looking for crashed helicopters and NVG's. You can search for better weapons. but what do you do when you get these weapons?

You go back to the coast and shoot the guys who just got the game. There's just nothing else to do. I personally, have never stooped to this level. I've killed a total of maybe four other players. And never have I laid in wait to shoot them. But this isn't about me. This is about every single other cunt that plays this game. You have nothing better to do once you get this gear, other than shoot PEOPLE with it. A .50 sniper rifle is not designed for use on zombies. Don't even try to pretend it is. It's used specifically for killing players.

Now, let's look at it from the other side. Say you're a person who genuinely wants to help, like, say, me. I like to help people who are in a spot of bother in this game. I was running cherno/elektro server hopping at one point taking down the barbed wire that server hoppers had been putting up to fence off pretty much every single bit of real estate in the cities.

But I don't interact with other players. Why? You're all bastards. Sure, maybe one in five or so won't shoot me on sight. The other four? I'm dead. I'm not restarting and losing all my shit because you decided to be an asshole.

This is the mentality that has ruined this mod, on BOTH SIDES. "It's just a game, let's be COMPLETE, UTTER ASSHOLES! :D " Don't even fucking pretend to me that that isn't what 90% of you bandits feel, deep down. It's just a game. None of it matters.

Well you know what? It's not a fun game.

It's not a fun game when no one will help you. It's just a long, hard slog through brutal mutated zombies with the running strength of an olympic athlete pumped full of speed and on a sugar rush, looking for loot with no 'end game' in sight. Your entire gaming existence comes down to surviving. That's what this mod should be. But there are people out there who don't WANT to survive. They just want to deathmatch. You've seen them. Fuck, a lot of you have BEEN THAT PERSON. Sitting on the sidelines of the NWAF with a sniper rifle waiting for some hapless 'noob' to wander into your sights. Camping in Cherno looking to shoot noobs.

'It's just a game'.

New players either convert to being a bandit, or stop playing. Or they group up with friends that they have to meet OUTSIDE the game, because ALL of you are two faced, backstabbing pricks, and then that's their clique. They don't step outside that zone.

The only interaction between player groups in this game is the whoosh of bullets flying past their goddamn faces. This is half the fault of the game design, and half the fault of YOU, the player.

Every time you camp in Cherno killing noobs, every time you snipe some guy who's arrived at NWAF for the first time. Every time you betray and backstab just for the sheer glee you get in your heart for being an anonymous cunt over the internet. This is what is destroying the game.

And don't even try to pretend it's not. Or next time you see someone who's actually armed, walk up to them and say 'friendly'. Go on. I'll wait.

Eventually, the supply of fresh-faced, naive recruits WILL diminish, at which point you'll all have what you want. You'll have a deathmatch in Cherno. You'll have a deathmatch at the NWAF. You'll have a deathmatch called Chernarus. Because that's the direction this community is DRIVING this game.

New players are forced away by the constant banditry, or convert to the banditry way of playing the game. I know I have. If I see a player, I don't help them. I hide. And if they see me, I shoot.

I was a fresh faced recruit once, hoping to actually play a survival game where survivors were pitted against bandits, and zombies fucked up everyone. But now, everyone is a bandit, and no one can be trusted. Ever.

This isn't a survival simulator any more. It's a bandit simulator.

And guess what?

The bandits are winning.

And to the people who will say 'hey, I'm not a bandit! I help people!' Yeah. Welcome to the 1% buddy. Congratulations.

For the blatently retarded. I don't get killed by bandits. I actually have no problem with bandits. I have no problem killing them, or avoiding them. I can kit myself up to full capacity without meeting a single other player. Woopity FUCKING do. What I don't like banditry or the bandits way of gaming, is what it's done to the game. No one tries to help others, and avoids all contacts with others, because 4 out of every 5 people play the game as a bandit and will kill you. If not for your loot, then just to be a cunt.

To the blatently retarded, obviously blind: I have NEVER BEEN SNIPED. I don't get killed by bandits! When I do, I suck it up and start over! Can I not make this more clear? This is not a complaint of 'bandits killed me waaah' it's a case of 'Bandit mentality killed what could have been an awesome game, waaaaah!'

Agree with you 100% on everything you said except that the mod is failing.

When I bought this game I wasnt expecting everyone (although I should have, Iv been a gamer for many years and it should be the first thing you learn. Gamers. Are. Assholes) to be such dicks and shoot first ask questions later. Iv teamed up with a couple of guys only to have myself killed by them at a later stage or after iv collected some great loot they wanted.

I dont however think this mod/game will fail, its a fantastic experiance, bandits and all.

I truely hope these issues are addressed in arma 3 or in the standalone version of the game, guess we can only wait and see.

PS: Playing DayZ is about 1000% more fun when you play with friends that you can trust, rather team up with IRL friends and then KOS all other players just to be safe.

[WisdomSnork 42]

The second issue is the lack of things to do as a well equipped player

How many times do I have to explain to you that there IS NO FUCKING END GAME. Period. The only thing to do for a well equipped player is to burn through his equipment and food and then go find more and hope to survive longer.

That's the fucking game.

We're saying go QQ more because the OP is complaining about one of two things.

ONE: HACKING DUPING ETC (THINGS THAT CANT BE FIXED WITHOUT CHANGING THE ARMA 2 ENGINE)

TWO: BANDITS END GAME CONTENT (THINGS THAT ARE WORKING AS INTENDED)

The OP is not making any point at all worth responding to so all he's getting is garbage back, which is what he deserves for his inane bitch-fest.

Done.

[neo2157 21]

Your absolutely right man. Uninstall and come back in a year when the game is more complete.

You are are not cut out to be a tester.

I lvoe the game, not sure what else to say.

Neither are all the hackers, dupers, and disconnectors which make up a pretty good chunk of the people playing.

How many times do I have to explain to you that there IS NO FUCKING END GAME. Period. The only thing to do for a well equipped player is to burn through his equipment and food and then go find more and hope to survive longer.

That's the fucking game.

We're saying go QQ more because the OP is complaining about one of two things.

ONE: HACKING DUPING ETC (THINGS THAT CANT BE FIXED WITHOUT CHANGING THE ARMA 2 ENGINE)

TWO: BANDITS END GAME CONTENT (THINGS THAT ARE WORKING AS INTENDED)

The OP is not making any point at all worth responding to so all he's getting is garbage back, which is what he deserves for his inane bitch-fest.

Done.

Everyone exploits the survival "end game" which is why they find it easy.

Edited July 31, 2012 by neo2157

[VaultDweller (DayZ) 58]

Every day another thread, another circular discussion going nowhere because the discussion is based upon a fundamentally flawed premise: that there are two types of people in DayZ - survivors and bandits.

Nobody ever wants to account for the fact that most players are somewhere in between.

I do all of the things people seem to claim they want from the "survivor" portion of this game - I travel with companions, I share food, water and equipment, I bandage wounds and apply blood bags and epi-pens, I defend my friends from zombies and players, I cooperate to build and repair vehicles, I search for high-value loot, I've explored every inch of the map, I help new players learn the game and acquire basic tools for survival, etc. I do all of this every day I play the game.

But, I do it with people I know and trust.

If I don't know you and don't trust you and you run up on my squad expecting a high-five and a hug? You're going to get whipped into a fine paste by my M249.

Is that a flaw in the game design? That I don't want to be best friends with every stranger that sidles up to me unannounced?

I say no. I say a flaw would be some system of arbitrary and artificial restrictions and rules that would force me to be friends with you even though I don't want to. There are reasons I don't have more friends than I do already, and I don't want to play a game that forces me to make more. The day rocket adds some mechanic to force me to team up with every Cheeto-fingered, Mt. Dew-swilling ne'er-do-well who plays the game is the day I retire.

I've tried cooperating with random strangers I meet in the game. They run when they should walk, stand when they should crawl, shoot when they should wait, approach when they should stay back, lack communication skills, basic terrain knowledge, map-reading skills, etc. This usually results in my death or the death of a friends from either friendly fire or a zombie or hostile player that was alerted to our presence due to the actions of this stranger. It's not worth it. I don't want to be friends with you, okay? I don't want to cooperate with you. I have my squad and we're full so go away or face the consequences, eh?

The real meat of the issue is that people aren't used to playing games where trust and reliability matter so much. In WoW if you get a random dungeon finder with some assholes who don't know what they're doing, big deal. You lose a bit of item durability and 45 minutes. Okay, no biggie.

In DayZ so much more is on the line. Many hours, days, months of play and survival.

I'm sitting on Day 48 with 1200 zombie kills and you want me to put that in the hands of any old jackanapes who pops his head up and says "friendly!"?

Not a fucking chance.

rocket can do all he can to support and encourage cooperation, but he can't "game design" you into human relationships. You have to find those yourself, work on them on your own and then use them in the game to your advantage.

Just take my beans and shut up.

[j_riddell@live.com 32]

Do any of these guys have basic reading comprehension?

Do you?

The majority of people with legitimate arguments against you are not saying that you are crying about bandits. They're saying that you're not wording your agument correctly, and you even admitted it yourself. But then you continue to make claims about the mod failing, or the mod not being fun. You are wrong. What you are right about is that the mod is not working as intended for you. It is not fun for you. It is constrained for you.

You have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. You have nothing but speculation that new players will not keep playing. The majority of people are having fun, and not experiencing these issues you keep trying to say are present. The game has a steep learning curve. That's where that ends. Your claim that it is impossible for new players is laughable. It quite clearly isn't, even if they don't read up on the game. On the flip side, it takes about 30 seconds of reading to understand the basics and then learn from there the best way to survive, where to find loot, etc. I have purchased ARMA 2: OA for 6 people including myself, the majority of them casual gamers. They have no issues for this game. As seen by activity on the forums, even the majority of newer players here are not having issues with the game.

It's alright to have an opinion, but you keep using words that try to label it as fact. It clearly isn't. Your perception of the mod failing, and it's issues, are personal. Just because some people agree with you doesn't suddenly make it fact, either. It's a simple matter of wording your argument.

[Blakorr 77]

i don't think this thread starter really understands what failing means.

[orb917@hotmail.com 117]

Yes, Rocket has not the slightest clue why his mod became popular or how to appeal to a non-niche audience. It wasn't for the PvP. It was because gaming magazines talked about the psychology and ambience of role-playing survival against zombies.

And he needs to pack it in with the "this is art!" bullshit. That is the saddest excuse for not actually thinking about the player behaviour your rule changes will have on how the game is played. He should just admit it's Arma-II, and you should bring your own organised team if you want to compete, with a bait and switch wrapper suggesting it's about zombies.

the problem here is that people have read the gaming magazines and then didn't research anything beyond that. if people had looked at the objectives rocket had in mind for this mod before they purchased arma 2 oa, they'd be much better served and i'd like to think there'd be lots less bitching on the forums (but probably not). for example, you talk about rule changes, rocket has stated he is NOT going to script in rules or mechanics to force behavior on players. any behavior from the player is their own doing.

please read this over and over again, and look at the date it was posted, this is not new information:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/520-the-pvp-discussion-thread/page__st__440#entry6898

if players only play to acquire gear, they'll get bored. if they cannot find something else to do other than kill people that's their own fault. there's medics, traders, supply lines and other things going on right now that rocket had nothing to do with. people didn't bitch that there wasn't mechanics in the game to facilitate these things and look to the devs to make it happen. don't like banditry? do something about it damnit. form an organization. patrol a city or server.

to some extent the mod is probably popular due to its coverage in gaming magazines. but i think the reason it exploded the way it did in the first place is exactly because of the philosophy behind it, that being player freedom and what you call his "bullshit" art reasoning. the frustration, the excitement, the disappoint, and the camaraderie that the dayz experience can generate are something you cannot get from any other game i've played pretty much.

trying to get players to take responsibility for their own experience, generate their own objectives and not shove storylines and quests down their throat in a game really is like trying to wean people off heroin these days.

[j_riddell@live.com 32]

But you would shoot a guy walking past you, who hadn't even seen you?

I don't remember saying this at all.

What I did say was that I would without hesitation kill another human being (in a scenario such as a real world zombie apocolypse, or any apocolypse situation for that matter) if I had a hint that they were a threat to my own survival, my families survival, or the survival of my immediate friends. You're absolutely right I would. In the context of a real survival situation, a real-life zombie apocolypse.

ANd what do you know, that's how I operate in DayZ as well.

[j_riddell@live.com 32]

Asking to see some stats of one clame, and then clame something else without stats? (Your clame is probably right, if it's about people who want banditry all gone, but OP does not want that.)

I'm not making a solid claim. I'm saying that one only needs to look at the majority of posts on the forums, or the games playerbase itself, to see that it is incorrect to make a statement along the lines of "this mod is failing".

Saying The mod isn't failing at this early point of it's development could be premature. Right now its blowing up, I now that. But weirder things have happend, than a seemingly succes failing in the long run. (It looks like it'll be a succes to me too, but who knows?)

No. Because any claim that the mod is failing is simply from a personal and subjective stand point. End of story. Until someone can provide actual statistics that shows a decline in the playerbase, this can't really change.

Agreed...

You should keep in mind that I am not necessarily saying the OP doesn't have valid points. But I am most definitely saying that the argument needs to be worded much, much better.

[nashable 45]

The mindless PvP is a problem, but there is no effective solution.

I disagree, the game just needs more end-game content than it has now. I posted some suggestions previously over here: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18661-balancing-pvpbandits-end-game-goals/#entry184556

If players had more to do and could impact the world around them, or there were tougher challenges with hordes of zombies in areas you couldn't be saved within such as the airfields. Then we'll start to see players wanting to band together to complete higher goals.

If you look at something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs (don't get too hung up on the specifc items within the diagram) you can see that DayZ only really offers the first two levels of the pyramid. As there are no higher levels within the game (and certain levels/needs will never apply to a computer game) once people are stable in their own security they become bored.

PvP and Bandits are a must for DayZ, very few players are full time bandits but we end up with more and more banditry because players are quickly consuming the little amount of content available in the Alpha.

[CLewis 31]

I'm not making a solid claim. I'm saying that one only needs to look at the majority of posts on the forums, or the games playerbase itself, to see that it is incorrect to make a statement along the lines of "this mod is failing".

"(the people who dislike banditry are seriously outnumbered as well) and the number of people that would stop playing this game if banditry was removed or altered to the point of not being fun is far more significant"

That is still a claim in my eyes.

No. Because any claim that the mod is failing is simply from a personal and subjective stand point. End of story. Until someone can provide actual statistics that shows a decline in the playerbase, this can't really change.

I never said the OP was right about the mod failing. You can easily call this mod a succes, both number wise and "Rocket's dream" wise. probably in other ways too. So at this point in time it's not failing, but to say it isn't in the future is a qualified guess, but a guess non the less.

You should keep in mind that I am not necessarily saying the OP doesn't have valid points. But I am most definitely saying that the argument needs to be worded much, much better.

Agreed.

The who would you shoot thing, I'm backing out of. I don't think we'll ever see that the in same way. And It's one of those thiings You and I could discuss to the end of days...(pun intended)

[BigComfy 2]

I kind of agree with what you're saying, but it just makes me ask the question: If you take consequence away, why is it that so many people just become dickheads? People are saying banditry and pvp is a must in this game, okay but why does that have to mean kitting yourself out with all the best stuff and then hiding for god knows how long by the firehall in Elektro for the chance to shoot some guy who just started playing?

Is that the kind of person you want to be in real life, but can't because of society and laws etc? I hope not, because all the bullies in your life that fostered this attitude for you, where now in a videogame you can finally be a super nerd bully, are going to be out there still bigger stronger and meaner, and you'll be the one QQing IRL.

I guess it comes down to, go pick on someone your own size, someone who is as geared as you. Don't shoot some newcomer and then call him a faggot and a bitch. Or keep doing that, because it puts you firmly in my sights. I'mma git you weasally fucks, one by one.