RE: Private Hives and 'The Rules' - (Update from Rocket inside)

[Boris_Bee 6]

I've been looking for a non hive server to play on giving the rampant rise in alt f4 and hacking. Is there a place to find a list of popular non hive servers? I've pretty much hit my limit with dayz and I was hoping a private server could give new life to the game for me.

[Boris_Bee 6]

This thread makes me so sad to see the direction dayz could head.

I can't explain it better than rocket has multiple times.

You're taking a groundbreaking game that has a legit chance at success and showing him that it doesn't work and only games that don't really penalize you for making mistakes or playing dumb can succeed.

Instead of letting players balance the game (politics of a post apocalyptic society is what I think rocket calls it) themselves you cut yourself off from the populace and defy that whole concept of the game. You're not really interested in the evolution of player interaction or how the games progresses at all. You only care about your server and forget everything else.

All I can hope for is that people like you don't ruin this game for the people who want to play it the way it was intended and that he sticks with the "core" of his vision for the game.

The only thing people are trying to avoid are the server hopping, disconnecting, hackers, and a lack of community. If rocket could solve those issues I don't think anyone here would have an issue with hive servers.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Boris_Bee

[Anton17 97]

This thread makes me so sad to see the direction dayz could head.

I can't explain it better than rocket has multiple times.

You're taking a groundbreaking game that has a legit chance at success and showing him that it doesn't work and only games that don't really penalize you for making mistakes or playing dumb can succeed.

Instead of letting players balance the game (politics of a post apocalyptic society is what I think rocket calls it) themselves you cut yourself off from the populace and defy that whole concept of the game. You're not really interested in the evolution of player interaction or how the games progresses at all. You only care about your server and forget everything else.

All I can hope for is that people like you don't ruin this game for the people who want to play it the way it was intended and that he sticks with the "core" of his vision for the game.

It seems like in your preaching ignorance that you've actually adopted ignorance. The game is exactly the same in a private hive as is in the public hive, apart from better performance and people sticking around longer. Knowing a couple of people on a server will never change the thrill, danger and effect that running into or seeing another player has in DayZ. You still die, you still lose all your stuff. You still team up with people, you still get killed by bandits and bugs.

Generally? Less hackers, DCers, server hoppers and kids and/or people with no interest in the game's longevity that, as stated earlier in the thread, do not give a fuck who you are or what you're doing and will hop from server to server adopting that notion. That's not dangerous, its borderline idiotic and fucking annoying. All the overheads are exactly the same, you just don't have to put up with the general consesus of wide-spread public bullshit as is always in a large body of people. In a private hive I get killed just as much as I do in any public hive. The difference? I can get offered to turn around, to give up my gun, to join them, to be chased, to be betrayed.... what's that? Yes, every option that is and should be available in DayZ. Not just some pointless shoot-em-up in two towns. Yes, its a part of a game, but not the core element. In my own experience, private hives tend to have a ping-limit for IQ - if your IQ is in double-digits, chances are you're not in a private hive. That is experienced opinion.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Anton17

[Astronomer (DayZ) 16]

Keep playing in your private bubble missing the whole point of the dayz experiment.

Glad you guys like the game enough to try and ruin it.

And what of people who practise with new weapons they find in DayZ in the ArmA 2 armoury? Do you hold them in equal contempt? They are comparable practises, given that someone can practise on a private hive, get considerably better at most aspects of playing DayZ in different conditions, then come back to the main hive. They can do the same with the armoury to get really good with that new dragunov before risking it, should we frown upon that too, and say they they're "ruining the point of the game"?

What a load of bollocks. Their experience in no way affects the actual hive servers, and by extension does not affect YOUR experience or the development of the alpha. They may as well be playing any other game, and you have yet to demonstrate how this practise is any more detrimental or malicious than deciding you'd rather vanilla ArmA 2 multiplayer than DayZ.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Astronomer

[MikeCrick 8]

This thread makes me so sad to see the direction dayz could head.

I can't explain it better than rocket has multiple times.

You're taking a groundbreaking game that has a legit chance at success and showing him that it doesn't work and only games that don't really penalize you for making mistakes or playing dumb can succeed.

Instead of letting players balance the game (politics of a post apocalyptic society is what I think rocket calls it) themselves you cut yourself off from the populace and defy that whole concept of the game. You're not really interested in the evolution of player interaction or how the games progresses at all. You only care about your server and forget everything else.

All I can hope for is that people like you don't ruin this game for the people who want to play it the way it was intended and that he sticks with the "core" of his vision for the game.

I understand what you mean here and I actually agree with you in pretty much every regard.

What these non-hive servers are offering is what (I'm hoping) will be the final Day Z experience, with one central server just like any other MMO, where things are a bit more persistant and you can get an idea of the flow within the world. Right now each server is too different, chaotic one day and cool and calm the next. I totally agree that adds to the appeal of the game but It's something I don't see as necessary to get the effect required. You have to admit that tieing players down to a single server has benefits to the game.

I'm not interested in these servers because they feel more 'friendly' or 'safe' but because they are providing something which is more analogous to a real world environment than the current hive structure provides. Obviously just my opinion there.

I try to keep up to date with Rocket's posts and comments in regards to most issues and I'd be interested if he'd preffer a selection of a few large player servers (like, god forgive me, WoW) or the current environment of small servers with a global persistance.

[Kageru 18]

You mock us for playing in our "private bubble," as you say, but you offer no logical reasons for your dissent.

I'm having fun in my private bubble. So is everybody else in the server. Is that so bad? It's not affecting you at all, in any way.

It means less targets for him to potentially shoot.

Private hives sound fun, and much more realistic / interesting in that you'd develop factions and politics.. Which is what kept Eve interesting.

[Anton17 97]

As interesting as I find this discussion from both parties involved, I did simply ask a question regarding the rules and these servers, not the moral ethics of playing on them.

[MikeCrick 8]

I guess I'd also add that this is Alpha, shoudln't both styles of play be 'tested'?

Far be it from me to dictate to Rocket how to design his game, but shouldn't he support all avaliable data? He can still decide against it but it doesn't hurt to see what an alternative method of play adds. It may even inspire some interesting ideas he wouldn't have thought of otherwise.

[Swineflew 480]

It seems like in your preaching ignorance that you've actually adopted ignorance. The game is exactly the same in a private hive as is in the public hive, apart from better performance and people sticking around longer. Knowing a couple of people on a server will never change the thrill, danger and effect that running into or seeing another player has in DayZ. You still die, you still lose all your stuff. You still team up with people, you still get killed by bandits and bugs.

Generally? Less hackers, DCers, server hoppers and kids and/or people with no interest in the game's longevity that, as stated earlier in the thread, do not give a fuck who you are or what you're doing and will hop from server to server adopting that notion. That's not dangerous, its borderline idiotic and fucking annoying. All the overheads are exactly the same, you just don't have to put up with the general consesus of wide-spread public bullshit as is always in a large body of people. In a private hive I get killed just as much as I do in any public hive. The difference? I can get offered to turn around, to give up my gun, to join them, to be chased, to be betrayed.... what's that? Yes, every option that is and should be available in DayZ. Not just some pointless shoot-em-up in two towns. Yes, its a part of a game, but not the core element. In my own experience, private hives tend to have a ping-limit for IQ - if your IQ is in double-digits, chances are you're not in a private hive. That is experienced opinion.

Did you really try to argue the game is the same then go on a tangent about "higher IQ" players on private servers?

Listen I don't give 2 craps if someone is playing dayz or my little pony kiddie ride.

If your playing on a private server just to avoid loading the hive, then you're hurting the game by giving false stress tests.

If you're playing because there is a better community then you're going against the "players balance the game" mentality of the game.

If you're playing to avoid the hackers or server hoppers then I can actually sympathize with you, but don't condone it for the other reasons I've already stated.

If you're not passing through proper channels when playing you're hurting research and development of this game wether you realize it or not.

[disorder 344]

You're taking a groundbreaking game that has a legit chance at success and showing him that it doesn't work and only games that don't really penalize you for making mistakes or playing dumb can succeed.

Incorrect. Its a mod and its an experiment. it does work regardless of private/public or pve/pvp. I would say its a success at all those things. Why pigeon-hole it? Secondly its about choice, you make a lot of people happy (and paying customers) if you cater to as many demographics as possible.

Edited July 29, 2012 by disorder

[Bribase 251]

I play an open, non-hive server exclusively now. Along with the rigid no-hack policy, side chat enabled and a public TS channel it's just nicer to play on a server that feels like home. There are people I collaborate with, fight against, steal from. There is an ebb and flow to how the different factions are doing along with a steady stream of less accomplished players that hop in for a quick game, some stay for good.

I would hate to see non-hive servers that do a good job and run a clean server banned.

[Anton17 97]

If you're playing to avoid the hackers or server hoppers then I can actually sympathize with you, but don't condone it for the other reasons I've already stated.

To be honest, the entire reason I even stumbled onto private hives was just this. I play on New Zealand servers, that got absolutely plagued with hackers especially in the evenings. The group I played with had all 3 of their bases on one server simultaneously raided by hackers, with most of them getting killed/trying fruitlessly to get back to their camps to repeat the cycle. Then came the instant server-wide killings and that was me done, I wasn't playing NZ servers after that. I tried Australian servers, and by chance a couple of them were private hives without being advertised as such. I figured it'd be a good way to gain experience without the threat of instant death from illegitimate means. I'm fine with being outgunned by a better player, or a lucky one, but not a hacker... fuck that. Everything else with private hives came after that, but yeah, that was the sole reason I even accidentally found out about them, let alone played on them. I've seen better players on private hives that don't need hacks and have learned from every death.

[sambody 44]

I started playing in a alt hive server something like week ago and all i can say it is way nicer than the normal server because the server builds up community of people who starts to organize attacks and raids cities (not being a clan, just having random people from the server who wants to join them). Recently there was few raids to bandit camps and vehicle hoarder camps.

That is way more realistic than having a different server every day with different people.

Edited July 29, 2012 by sambody

[Nalestom 116]

Did you really try to argue the game is the same then go on a tangent about "higher IQ" players on private servers?

Listen I don't give 2 craps if someone is playing dayz or my little pony kiddie ride.

If your playing on a private server just to avoid loading the hive, then you're hurting the game by giving false stress tests.

If you're playing because there is a better community then you're going against the "players balance the game" mentality of the game.

If you're playing to avoid the hackers or server hoppers then I can actually sympathize with you, but don't condone it for the other reasons I've already stated.

If you're not passing through proper channels when playing you're hurting research and development of this game wether you realize it or not.

Have you ever considered that perhaps, by "isolating" ourselves from the public hive, we're contributing our own balance to the game?

Right now, I'm happy in my private hive. I can reliably connect to a server and load into it within a few seconds and play DayZ without worrying about whether I'll be teleported and killed by a hacker. I can play DayZ without worrying about a server hopper or a ghoster ruining my day. I can play DayZ without worrying about the server randomly going offline, disconnecting from the hive, or any other number of performance issues that the occasional hive server will encounter. AND, if I do encounter any of these issues, I can easily contact the owner of the private database and resolve the issue quickly with little to no hassle on my part. Not only that, but the development of factions and the construction of bases is encouraged by the community because you see familiar faces often.

Listen to some of Rocket's interviews. He's stated multiple times that he wants something extremely similar to the environment that we've created in this non-hive server. By not restricting players to a single server, you end up dooming any possibility of a sense of community - at least, with the game in its current state. Without a sense of community, without creating a group of reliable friends that you have fought and died with, you're not going to foster any motivation to set up trading posts, shelters, or any other fortification that requires defense.

[Astronomer (DayZ) 16]

If your playing on a private server just to avoid loading the hive, then you're hurting the game by giving false stress tests.

Really? Your objection is that because some players don't play on the main hive, it will make it a bit harder to accurately predict the load on the hive for when they return (ie: release perhaps)? And you have a problem with this during the alpha phase? This seems an utterly trivial concern at this stage of development, especially given your venomous attitude.

If you're playing because there is a better community then you're going against the "players balance the game" mentality of the game.

No they're not. If this was true, then opting to play on the same server as your friends would be against this mentality too. After all, you're making a metagame decision (which instance of the DayZ universe to play within) based on how much you like the players who reside there. There is no discernable difference.

Even if there were, this mentality is not something you as the player have to keep in mind. This mentality is needed to make appropriate game design decisions, it has nothing to do with the choices (metagame or ingame) of the players themselves; the range of actions the player can take should already be decided by game mechanics, designed based on that very mentality to begin with.

If you're playing to avoid the hackers or server hoppers then I can actually sympathize with you, but don't condone it for the other reasons I've already stated.

Which are horrible reasons.

If you're not passing through proper channels when playing you're hurting research and development of this game wether you realize it or not.

This is an assertion. It's actually just a rewording of your original assertion. As I have repeatedly pointed out, you have yet to provide any substantial reasoning for this assertion.

[Swineflew 480]

Last I heard he wanted and eve type structure and is working on things to encourage grouping like bases and stuff like that.

I'm just worried that private servers will detract from the overall growth of the game.

I'm not so quick to say that private servers aren't detrimental to the overall long term of dayz.

If I knew that private servers wasn't hurting dayz development in any way and rocket didn't have a problem with it I would be on your side of the fence. Hell I might be on your server, but I see something great in this game so I'm going to play it through the hive server and stick with it and do anything I can to see the game succeed.

Edit: I'm going to keep ignoring you astronomer because you're just going to dismiss any reasoning I've already made and I don't feel like going back and forth with you.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Swineflew

[Astronomer (DayZ) 16]

I'm not so quick to say that private servers aren't detrimental to the overall long term of dayz.

That's fine. I don't know for a fact that private servers won't have any adverse affects either. Except that's not the problem here. The problem is that you ARE so quick to say that private servers ARE detrimental to DayZ, and you have come onto the public forum and accused everyone who runs or plays on them of ruining the game's future, and just generally pissed on people's happy meals. Slick use of double negatives do not change this, and it seems increasingly likely that your reaction is based on a 'gut feeling' rather than any concrete reasoning. Gut feeling is a capricious whore.

EDIT -

Edit: I'm going to keep ignoring you astronomer because you're just going to dismiss any reasoning I've already made and I don't feel like going back and forth with you.

Wait, you already gave reasoning? Please, forgive me, where is it? Perhaps there's even actual data you can point to, to substantiate any-fucking-thing about what you're accusing people of? That'd be nice :) No. I didn't ignore it. I told you why it seems blisteringly obvious to me that it's erroneous. I find it more likely that you are ignoring me becase you cannot address my objections to your overzealous, incoherent, knee-jerk reaction tyrade.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Astronomer

[Nalestom 116]

Last I heard he wanted and eve type structure and is working on things to encourage grouping like bases and stuff like that.

I'm just worried that private servers will detract from the overall growth of the game.

I'm not so quick to say that private servers aren't detrimental to the overall long term of dayz.

If I knew that private servers wasn't hurting dayz development in any way and rocket didn't have a problem with it I would be on your side of the fence. Hell I might be on your server, but I see something great in this game so I'm going to play it through the hive server and stick with it and do anything I can to see the game succeed.

Edit: I'm going to keep ignoring you astronomer because you're just going to dismiss any reasoning I've already made and I don't feel like going back and forth with you.

You think that private servers are going to detract from the overall growth of the game, yet the majority of players who participate in a private hive are working towards establishing a strong sense of community through factions, bases, trading posts, and so on.

The overall growth of DayZ, given by 95% of the posts I've seen by users of its official forums, can only be determined by the content that Rocket pushes into DayZ. If Rocket encourages players to build bases and group up with other players to fight over high-value targets, then he will have to design the game around that philosophy (and I'm sure he will!) However, at the moment, the majority of the public hive community is more concerned about gearing themselves out with high-caliber sniper rifles, ghillie suits, and nightvision goggles, then using that equipment to tally as many kills as possible onto their debug monitor, then posting screenshots in the hopes that their e-peen will stretch.

So please, tell me: which game would you rather play?

I think I'll opt for the private hive experience now, then switch to public when the community - and DayZ - has properly matured to fit the archetype we all covet.

[Boris_Bee 6]

Still waiting for someone to actually say what server they play on, or where someone can find a server to play on....

[Anton17 97]

As interesting as I find this discussion from both parties involved, I did simply ask a question regarding the rules and these servers, not the moral ethics of playing on them.

[Swineflew 480]

I'd rather the private hive community come to the public community and setup trading posts medical teams, try to change the public game. I don't think the game itself can evolve if the helpful type players play on private servers detached from public play. I'd like to see the helpful players band together and make a public stand.

And yes Astronomer I'm going to assume that private servers are detrimental to dayz until I hear an official word otherwise. I know it's weird to think that I'd have some type of apprehension about it when I'll I've ever seen is rocket saying no to private servers, so I do apologize for taking his word over yours.

[Nalestom 116]

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing that Rocket can do that would punish users for either running or playing on a non-hive server. It might be possible for him to implement something in the standalone that would require all users to connect to the public database, but for right now, I would say it's legal.

I would still like a member of the DayZ staff to confirm it, however. Just in case I'm wrong. =)

[Nalestom 116]

I'd rather the private hive community come to the public community and setup trading posts medical teams, try to change the public game. I don't think the game itself can evolve if the helpful type players play on private servers detached from public play. I'd like to see the helpful players band together and make a public stand.

Sadly, it's impossible to do on the public hive without a high risk of death and destruction.

Let's say our current group of 10+ decided to set up a trading post on a public hive server. For one, we don't have any resources whatsoever to set up a trading post, but I'll play your game and say that we've gathered them. After we set up the trading post, we would be forced to advertise it. If we advertised it on the official forums, a group of bandits would read it and would server-hop past our defenses, then proceed to kill us all. All in the name of 10 additional kills.

If we chose not to advertise it, we'd end up with no business whatsoever unless we placed it in a major city. If we placed it in a major city, we'd only run into the same problem: bandits abusing the system to kill us all.

In its current state, the mod and its players simply are not friendly to any attempts of peaceful gathering on the public hive. If we tried to bring our game-changing ways to the public hive, we'd end up dying to the point of us losing motivation - which changed absolutely nothing in the game.

[Astronomer (DayZ) 16]

And yes Astronomer I'm going to assume that private servers are detrimental to dayz until I hear an official word otherwise. I know it's weird to think that I'd have some type of apprehension about it when I'll I've ever seen is rocket saying no to private servers, so I do apologize for taking his word over yours.

So now it's gone from "I dunno man, they just look shifty to me, here are some flimsy reasons" to "Rocket said so", an appeal to authority. You realise that Rocket, much as I love his work and admire his game design philosophy, is not infallible? He has had many an argument with the community on the forums, and that is not only healthy it is necessary. What this developing game needs is to be driven by disagreement and criticism based on *facts*, reasoning and data.

What it does NOT need, is credulous sycophants running around agreeing with everything and anything Rocket says, simply because he said it. I would submit it is people like you, who favour mindless agreement with Rocket over actually thinking for yourself, that probably do more damage to the development of this mod than private databases ever can. Case closed, class dismissed.

[Doctor_sloth 119]

Because they ruin the whole point of why the game was developed?

Maybe that has something to do with it.

How does it affect anyone except those who play on them? If what you're saying is the logic we're using, then DayZ "ruins" the whole point of ARMA II, since it's a military simulator not a zombie game. See how dumb that sounds?