The Moral Effect Theory v2.0

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

"This was relatively recent, so humanity and human costumes would still be around. And I actually think the movies highly exaggerate on the destruction because of zombies. We would be able to take them down."

Yea I thought we were talking about realism and apocalypse, its not an apocalypse if we can take care of/handle it, just a disaster. Now who wants to play Zombie disaster?

(a·poc·a·lypse/əˈpäkəˌlips/

Noun:

The complete final destruction of the world, esp. as described in the biblical book of Revelation.

An event involving destruction or damage on an awesome or catastrophic scale.)..

i feel like you didnt bother understanding my post or the whole concept of what you are talking about. try again please.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

I think most people would argue that the fun part is the killing and looting part' date=' putting yourself against another player and outplaying them, not the artificially imposed vomiting and screaming uncontrollably part, although I would be interested in hearing how exactly screaming and vomiting are "thrilling" to you. Trying to simulate the human psyche in a videogame IS going to be artificial, clunky, and ridiculous, even if we had access to an actual psychiatrist who actually knows the effects of murder on the psyche of the murderer. It's overambitious.

If survivors want consequences for bandits, form a bandit hunting group. Use the advantages of your playstyle, which, by reading the forums, most of you seem to have totally overlooked, to combat the bandit playstyle. CREATE organic social consequences, don't bitch and ask for artificial and gamey consequences.

[/quote']

Read more of the thread, I can't even count how many times it has been said how superficial the examples were.

As for the rest of your post, I'll ignore them for the sake of the thread, as I'm aware of your types.

[Booya 1]

ahhh, the *vomiting* thrill of the hUUUUUUUNNTTT AAAAAAH AHHHHH AAAHHH AUUUUUUUGH. Nothing more satisfying than a job well done *passes out*

---

I think most people would argue that the fun part is the killing and looting part' date=' putting yourself against another player and outplaying them, not the artificially imposed vomiting and screaming uncontrollably part, although I would be interested in hearing how exactly screaming and vomiting are "thrilling" to you. Trying to simulate the human psyche in a videogame IS going to be artificial, clunky, and ridiculous, even if we had access to an actual psychiatrist who actually knows the effects of murder on the psyche of the murderer. It's overambitious.

If survivors want consequences for bandits, form a bandit hunting group. Use the advantages of your playstyle, which, by reading the forums, most of you seem to have totally overlooked, to combat the bandit playstyle. CREATE organic social consequences, don't bitch and ask for artificial and gamey consequences.

[/quote']

Read more of the thread, I can't even count how many times it has been said how superficial the examples were.

As for the rest of your post, I'll ignore them for the sake of the thread, as I'm aware of your types.

hey, the point is you're not going to implement a deep simulation of the human psyche into a mod for a military sim, maybe not into any game at all, and especially not without access to an expert who actually knows shit about the human psyche. your suggestion for consequences is inherently arbitrary, superficial, and artificial punishment of bandits when the tools to fight bandits are already ingame in the form of social interaction and cooperation. why ask for artificial and clunky intervention by the game when you already have the tools for much deeper player controlled consequence from the get-go

[Suicide Mouse 50]

"This was relatively recent' date=' so humanity and human costumes would still be around. And I actually think the movies highly exaggerate on the destruction because of zombies. We would be able to take them down."

Yea I thought we were talking about realism and apocalypse, its not an apocalypse if we can take care of/handle it

(a·poc·a·lypse/əˈpäkəˌlips/

Noun:

The complete final destruction of the world, esp. as described in the biblical book of Revelation.

An event involving destruction or damage on an awesome or catastrophic scale.)..

i feel like you didnt bother understanding my post or the whole concept of what you are talking about. try again please.

[/quote']

You do know post-apocalyptic is a figurative and idiomatic term, right? Because... there is no post in apocalypse...

I think that maybe you had the wrong impressions on the semantic in questions.

You see, rocket said the zombies were basically humans on an animal state, where they they chase and kill everything they see without any sense of self preservation. Giving that the numbers of zeds outnumbers the survivors on server in at least 50 to 1, it means that this just happened and this humans are the few survivors who haven't started to build another social structure. They won't all be crazy cannibals, simply because there hasn't been enough time for that.

---

hey' date=' the point is you're not going to implement a deep simulation of the human psyche into a mod for a military sim, maybe not into any game at all, and especially not without access to an expert who actually knows shit about the human psyche. your suggestion for consequences is inherently arbitrary, superficial, and artificial punishment of bandits when the tools to fight bandits are already ingame in the form of social interaction and cooperation.

[/quote']

No, it is not, ok?! You can't tell bandits from other players, your suggestion is to form a gang to kill bandits, which means everyone on sight, which just means you'll prolongue even more the kind of behavior that is killing the game.

What I suggested is something incredibly complex and I though it might not be possible to implement weight on your choices, but the guy who have created the game posted in this thread saying he's actually looking into it and from the start he wanted to make sure people feel their decisions reacting on the ambient. So I think I'll thrust the guy who created this thing and will leave that up to him, 'mkay?!

[Booya 1]

You can tell bandits from survivors though. It's actually pretty easy to tell once they start shooting other players for their gear. You can then tell people the name of the bandit that's doing this thing, or describe the equipment he's using and his location, and then the survivors can be on the look out for that guy.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

how exactly is people killing each other killing the game? surely thats just an exageration

[Suicide Mouse 50]

How are you ever going to know the name of the guy? Nametags doesn't show up, you're not told who've killed you.

How are your little posse going to convenientely be watching as some innocent guy gets shot?

How are you going to be able to tell you're being shot in the first place? I go for headshots and I don't miss.

It is broken, period. The creator acknowledges that, I can't see why you people still try to play blind, like nothing needs to be changed. Why are you an Alpha forum with that mentality? Plenty is going to be changed and you're here to HELP that.

[Booya 1]

At most we need more tools to identify players without outright revealing them as bandit or survivor at first glance, not an overly ambitious attempt to simulate the human psyche in a videogame.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

how exactly is people killing each other killing the game? surely thats just an exageration

The great thing of the game was not knowing when someone would be friendly or just backstab you. As it is right now' date=' no one will ever take the chance for that, everyone is killing everyone indiscriminately.

This is not a deathmatch game you can find another 400 just like it, where only the title changes.

[hr']

At most we need more tools to identify players without outright revealing them as bandit or survivor at first glance' date=' not an overly ambitious attempt to simulate the human psyche in a videogame.

[/quote']

Dude, this is not just to solve the killing thing (it probably wouldn't), it's to add to immersive gameplay.

I'm talking about removing the titles of bandits and good guys and putting everyone on the same level, where people kill to survive, but some will go on most extreme ways.

[Booya 1]

Nametags do actually show up on most servers btw, and as much as I dislike them they're kind of a necessary evil, since they represent the only realistic way to identify individual players

At most we need more tools to identify players without outright revealing them as bandit or survivor at first glance' date=' not an overly ambitious attempt to simulate the human psyche in a videogame.

[/quote']

Dude, this is not just to solve the killing thing (it probably wouldn't), it's to add to immersive gameplay.

I'm talking about removing the titles of bandits and good guys and putting everyone on the same level, where people kill to survive, but some will go on most extreme ways.

making killers uncontrollably scream and vomit is explicitly not "putting people on the same level," and doing so probably will solve your issue by making most playerkillers outright quit the game.

edit: how is artificially removing control from the player to simulate "psyche" that has little to no basis in the real complexity of the human psyche immersive

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

How are you ever going to know the name of the guy? Nametags doesn't show up' date=' you're not told who've killed you.

How are your little posse going to convenientely be watching as some innocent guy gets shot?

How are you going to be able to tell you're being shot in the first place? I go for headshots and I don't miss.

It is broken, period. The creator acknowledges that, I can't see why you people still try to play blind, like nothing needs to be changed. Why are you an Alpha forum with that mentality? Plenty is going to be changed and you're here to HELP that.

[/quote']

you can see nametags ans see who you killed, it depends on the server settings

---

The great thing of the game was not knowing when someone would be friendly or just backstab you. As it is right now' date=' no one will ever take the chance for that, everyone is killing everyone indiscriminately.

This is not a deathmatch game you can find another 400 just like it, where only the title changes.

[/quote']

i see people take chances meeting people all the time on side chat, sometimes they die and sometimes they dont

90% of the time they die IF they are on the coast it seems

[Suicide Mouse 50]

making killers uncontrollably scream and vomit is explicitly not "putting people on the same level' date='" and doing so probably will solve your issue by making most playerkillers outright quit the game.

edit: how is artificially removing control from the player to simulate "psyche" that has little to no basis in the real complexity of the human psyche immersive

[/quote']

OH MY GOD, I give up. Forget the fucking vomiting, will ya? It is much more complicated than that!

Just read the thread, and by that I mean the posts. Read rocket's posts, how he thinks of ways that your action will have weight. I just can't have the patience to keep on with this argument, sorry.

---

you can see nametags ans see who you killed' date=' it depends on the server settings

[/quote']

Perhaps this is why you find it so easy?! Did you tried to play on veteran servers? If you didn't I suggest you try. The names alone can make 90% of the difference.

[Booya 1]

making killers uncontrollably scream and vomit is explicitly not "putting people on the same level' date='" and doing so probably will solve your issue by making most playerkillers outright quit the game.

edit: how is artificially removing control from the player to simulate "psyche" that has little to no basis in the real complexity of the human psyche immersive

[/quote']

OH MY GOD, I give up. Forget the fucking vomiting, will ya? It is much more complicated than that!

Just read the thread, and by that I mean the posts. Read rocket's posts, how he thinks of ways that your action will have weight. I just can't have the patience to keep on with this argument, sorry.

Feel free to suggest an alternate thing, I can guarantee you that anything we can come up with in this thread is going to be either equally arbitrary punishment or totally inconsequential and cosmetic.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

There are already totally arbitary effects in the game, you don't notice them because they were there when you started playing. There are arbitary effects in EVERY single game you play.

If you think gaming is about having your rights and freedom, then you should reavaluate why you play.

[Donkey (DayZ) 3]

I think one of the keys to getting the player killing to a realistic level is just to offer motivation for what people should really be doing here, which is what what they would be doing in reality, trying to survive.

Currently there is not any great motivation to survive. Sure you lose your gear, but you can get it back, especially if you have a buddy or a group to hold it for you. There needs to be something personal that is lost, or something that is gained for survival. Maybe your character gets better at something the longer they are alive, or he just looks like more of a badass or something, I don't know, but it needs to be something everyone wants and doesn't want to lose when they die.

I don't like the idea of grinding for points, but even a score for how well (or long) you've survived would be okay. For the same reason, tracking points for players killed, or even the humanity number that was displayed, is probably a bad idea since people will be motivated to just increase (or decrease for -humanity) just to get the high score.

If the emphasis could be placed on survival, then any way to survive would be a good strategy. Being a bandit is a good way to survive, but it's dangerous work, and people would be less inclined to just murder for fun; unless that's what they really like to do, but murder in itself should really have no reward or measure (even in terms of getting the "best murderer" skin). The run and gunners on the beach would definitely not have great success in terms of survival. They might continue to cause grief just because they are jerks, but at least they'll mostly be doing it near the spawn points which just makes going into the city that much more dangerous.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

making killers uncontrollably scream and vomit is explicitly not "putting people on the same level' date='" and doing so probably will solve your issue by making most playerkillers outright quit the game.

edit: how is artificially removing control from the player to simulate "psyche" that has little to no basis in the real complexity of the human psyche immersive

[/quote']

OH MY GOD, I give up. Forget the fucking vomiting, will ya? It is much more complicated than that!

Just read the thread, and by that I mean the posts. Read rocket's posts, how he thinks of ways that your action will have weight. I just can't have the patience to keep on with this argument, sorry.

---

you can see nametags ans see who you killed' date=' it depends on the server settings

[/quote']

Perhaps this is why you find it so easy?! Did you tried to play on veteran servers? If you didn't I suggest you try. The names alone can make 90% of the difference.

i have, but it doesnt really make a difference for me as i kill most people i encounter anyways

[TeaLeaf 5]

Now that I've had a chance to think about it some more, I think I might have a way we can get around the issue of it feeling like the emotions are being "forced" on you: Make them appear as an "external" force.

It's a bit hard to explain what I mean, but essentially don't simulate moral breakdown by forcing the player to vomit, feint or perform any kind of action themselves. Instead, make the manifestations seem like part of the actual world and make them fairly subtle.

For example, there are a number of ambient sounds that put me on edge momentarily when I hear them such as the sound of something bumping a chainlink fence. Making sounds like that more common could actually make the player a little paranoid, rather than actually trying to directly simulate the effects of paranoia. The "music" could also get more oppressive when you are supposed to be depressed, but it should fade out entirely when you have a clean concious. If you go in the options and fiddle with the games music level, it feels much much scarier when it's on but fairy calm when it's off (assuming zombies are not chasing you).

You could do more advanced stuff like occasionally duplicating the sound of the players footsteps if they have been running for a while so it sounds like someone is behind them, but make it stop as soon as they stop moving or at night simulate the sounds of someone sprinting past you panting. I think obvious hallucinations would be pushing it a bit too much and a seasoned player would ignore them, but stuff that is more about the "mood" of the game rather than the actual mechanics is fairly hard to ignore.

I need to flesh this out a bit, but I'm kinda tired. Hope it makes sense. I'm still not 100% sold on the idea, but I'm coming around.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

I think one of the keys to getting the player killing to a realistic level is just to offer motivation for what people should really be doing here' date=' which is what what they would be doing in reality, trying to survive.

Currently there is not any great motivation to survive. Sure you lose your gear, but you can get it back, especially if you have a buddy or a group to hold it for you. There needs to be something personal that is lost, or something that is gained for survival. Maybe your character gets better at something the longer they are alive, or he just looks like more of a badass or something, I don't know, but it needs to be something everyone wants and doesn't want to lose when they die.

I don't like the idea of grinding for points, but even a score for how well (or long) you've survived would be okay. For the same reason, tracking points for players killed, or even the humanity number that was displayed, is probably a bad idea since people will be motivated to just increase (or decrease for -humanity) just to get the high score.

If the emphasis could be placed on survival, then any way to survive would be a good strategy. Being a bandit is a good way to survive, but it's dangerous work, and people would be less inclined to just murder for fun; unless that's what they really like to do, but murder in itself should really have no reward or measure (even in terms of getting the "best murderer" skin). The run and gunners on the beach would definitely not have great success in terms of survival. They might continue to cause grief just because they are jerks, but at least they'll mostly be doing it near the spawn points which just makes going into the city that much more dangerous.

[/quote']

motivation to survive and motivation to kill people is different, i want to survive at all costs, but i will still kill most people i meet

---

Now that I've had a chance to think about it some more' date=' I think I might have a way we can get around the issue of it feeling like the emotions are being "forced" on you: Make them appear as an "external" force.

It's a bit hard to explain what I mean, but essentially don't simulate moral breakdown by forcing the player to vomit, feint or perform any kind of action themselves. Instead, make the manifestations seem like part of the actual world and make them fairly subtle.

For example, there are a number of ambient sounds that put me on edge momentarily when I hear them such as the sound of something bumping a chainlink fence. Making sounds like that more common could actually make the player a little paranoid, rather than actually trying to directly simulate the effects of paranoia. The "music" could also get more oppressive when you are supposed to be depressed, but it should fade out entirely when you have a clean concious. If you go in the options and fiddle with the games music level, it feels much much scarier when it's on but fairy calm when it's off (assuming zombies are not chasing you).

You could do more advanced stuff like occasionally duplicating the sound of the players footsteps if they have been running for a while so it sounds like someone is behind them, but make it stop as soon as they stop moving or at night simulate the sounds of someone sprinting past you panting. I think obvious hallucinations would be pushing it a bit too much and a seasoned player would ignore them, but stuff that is more about the "mood" of the game rather than the actual mechanics is fairly hard to ignore.

I need to flesh this out a bit, but I'm kinda tired. Hope it makes sense. I'm still not 100% sold on the idea, but I'm coming around.

[/quote']

if you really want to come up with an idea rocket will use, make it so you arent punishing bandits

[Suicide Mouse 50]

motivation to survive and motivation to kill people is different' date=' i want to survive at all costs, but i will still kill most people i meet

[/quote']

Doesn't matter, there NEEDS to be people like you, who no mind how the stting will change, will still kill anyone. It's a vital part of the game.

It just needs to be contained so not everyone starts doing that because there's nothing to lose in it.

[TeaLeaf 5]

if you really want to come up with an idea rocket will use' date=' make it so you arent punishing bandits

[/quote']

It doesn't really punish them gameplay wise at all. You can still gun people down all day without effecting your aim or anything like that. The game just makes itself appear more hostile than it actually is.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

I need to flesh this out a bit' date=' but I'm kinda tired. Hope it makes sense. I'm still not 100% sold on the idea, but I'm coming around.

[/quote']

No, this is actually of great potential.

Players too human could have the same sense tuned down a bit. Opposites sides of the spectrum. It needs to be polished, but it's an idea and it's all about that.

What rocket and I mentioned earlier was that your actions would take you to a path that you had define as yours. If you're a killer, you have to accept to live as a killer. It wasn't going to be negative, because that's what the killer wnats for his life, but might be not what everyone wants, so they'd have to choose, "do I want to have this life?"

We don't know yet how to cause this effects so that you feel them based on your actions, but it isn't punishment or penalties. AND I CAN'T EMPHASIZE THIS ENOUGH, for everyone.

[Kaw 23]

"not about punishing player killers"

[You kill 2 or 3 people and you get nausea and vomits, possibly affecting your aim, making your hand shake.

You keep on killing more 6 people, you occasionally can pass out now.

You kill several people and now can be considered a psychotic individual with violent addiction and now you require medication, a special in-game item that serves the function to calm these violent people. It could be hard to find, making the mass murderer constant scavenge for it. Without medication you can suffer hallucinations, shaking, blurred vision, you can involuntarily scream, alerting zeds and players, and other effects.]

sure...*rolls eyes*

I'm sure Rocket will find away to make both sides happyone day, but ur ideas of penalizing players for killing others just shows your what side your on, and whos interests you have in mind.

[TeaLeaf 5]

Yeah I get what you are saying. Whatever happens has to be a negative experience for someone like me that never player kills unless it's self defence, but a positive experience for someone that runs around murdering everyone?

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

I need to flesh this out a bit' date=' but I'm kinda tired. Hope it makes sense. I'm still not 100% sold on the idea, but I'm coming around.

[/quote']

No, this is actually of great potential.

Players too human could have the same sense tuned down a bit. Opposites sides of the spectrum. It needs to be polished, but it's an idea and it's all about that.

What rocket and I mentioned earlier was that your actions would take you to a path that you had define as yours. If you're a killer, you have to accept to live as a killer. It wasn't going to be negative, because that's what the killer wnats for his life, but might be not what everyone wants, so they'd have to choose, "do I want to have this life?"

We don't know yet how to cause this effects so that you feel them based on your actions, but it isn't punishment or penalties. AND I CAN'T EMPHASIZE THIS ENOUGH, for everyone.

have there been any ideas so far that arent punishments for bandits?

[Booya 1]

There are already totally arbitary effects in the game' date=' you don't notice them because they were there when you started playing. There are arbitary effects in EVERY single game you play.

If you think gaming is about having your rights and freedom, then you should reavaluate why you play.

[/quote']

I didn't say anything about rights and freedom, the reason it being arbitrary is a bad thing is because you say you want to feature as an immersion thing. I'm saying that, since the feature is arbitrary and serves only to take away control from the player, it isn't immersive, just a random punishment you want imposed on my playstyle. I'm totally fine with things that aren't based in reality as long as they add to gameplay, but I don't see how adding anything along the lines you suggested could add to gameplay or immersion.