Request: Allow Bans for Death Dodgers

[RSF TheCapulet 45]

^Repped

Everything mojo just said is something that seriously needs considered. I think mojo here proves that the DayZ team and it's server operators eventually (or already have) will come to a head. The development team and the server admin group are both valuable parts of what make the DayZ community operate. When one starts pissing the other off to the point that they separate ways (such as mojo here), something needs to immediately be done to solve the problem.

And yes, I understand there are hundreds of other server owners looking forward to the chance to host a DayZ server. But both Chitown 1 and 20 are both well founded and respected servers with high speed and quality administration. Pissing off server owners who are constantly arguing the rules with the dev team, don't know what they're doing, or are running shitty hardware/connections is one thing. But pissing off the kind of people who help drive the community is something that will lead the community as a whole to disaster.

[cm. (DayZ) 28]

I'd ban for server hopping only if I have adequate proof (e.g. a fraps video and also checking the battleye logs of various servers).

I also do short (1 week-ish) bans for being immature - too many new players who think it's acceptable to spam the chat with cod-like behaviour. It's not a "dayz rule" but it keeps the servers relatively clean and free of annoying players (or at least restrains them).

[Deneme 8]

Gotta agree with Mojo on this. At the current moment people can too easily play the death dodging game with alt+F4. Generally leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you and friends waste ammo on people that start a firefight with you, just to duck around a corner or inside foliage and dodging out.

[dizzymagoo 19]

I completely agree with everything Mojo said... If the way the rules are going right now that the devs enforce, I will end my presence here in the DayZ community. I love hosting servers for the community. The "community" being the bunch of people that respect the game, play it the way its meant to be played. If I can't eliminate these "non team players" then I will eliminate myself from the community because at that point because its no longer enjoyable.

[jorgamun 2]

Sounds like we need a real rules list...

[jockbhoy@blueyonder.co.uk 3]

@mojo:

Metagaming such as spying on voip and so forth is actually allowed.

If you are having problem with someone spying on your teamspeak - ban them from the teamspeak but dont ban them from ingame.

If that's the case I'll need to immediately terminate my hosting duties. From hereon out' date=' Ander, any interaction with Chicago 1 and Chicago 20 should be done through Owl, the now-only host. Owl is aware of the namespace changes which we discussed, and does not need to be brought up to speed. Regardless, I'll both encourage him to run the server for at least another month for the sake of the donors, and direct him to send you a private message so that you two can get up to speed on the issues we discussed.

[/quote']

Oh well, if you really want to quit hosting because of something you see as ok to do and kick for, but its being mentioned as a legitimate means of spying in DayZ...enjoy playing Domination again....the rest of us will just have to put up with the cyrilic keyboard racists, death dodgers, high pingers and the like for the time being....BTW i still have space in my van for another hip young teenager and a plucky Great Dane if your interested in solving some mysteries with me, now you will have some free time on your hands....:D

But i fully agree with blackfuse, Death Dodgers should be banned

[Difecti 11]

Jocktamson, one thing you said struck me. "Have to put up with cyrillic". English is more recognised than any other language. I am not a racist person, I will never said a bad word against any person with regards to their race, religion or beliefs. Everyone has a right to speak their own language.

When people join EU5, I do ask that they speak English, simply because it is an international language. The people that use our server may not understand any other language, and may think that they are being slated for some reason. As I say, I do ask that people speak English, and if they can't, then I provide them with another location to do so, such as out TS3 server that has been set up specifically for DayZ.

I think I'm responding to a post I saw yesterday more than yours, but I hope people get what I mean.

[jorgamun 2]

Jocktamson' date=' one thing you said struck me. "Have to put up with cyrillic". English is more recognised than any other language. I am not a racist person, I will never said a bad word against any person with regards to their race, religion or beliefs. Everyone has a right to speak their own language.

When people join EU5, I do ask that they speak English, simply because it is an international language. The people that use our server may not understand any other language, and may think that they are being slated for some reason. As I say, I do ask that people speak English, and if they can't, then I provide them with another location to do so, such as out TS3 server that has been set up specifically for DayZ.

I think I'm responding to a post I saw yesterday more than yours, but I hope people get what I mean.

[/quote']

I got the impression that he was talking about using cyrillic characters to get around racism word filters/detection. If such filters/detection are even running.

[Difecti 11]

Sorry, I was probably ranting. Those detection features are running on some servers. With regards to your "using Cyrillic to get around racism", I do understand, and I do agree. If a server host doesn't understand another language, how are they to know what term is racist and what is not?

[jorgamun 2]

Sorry' date=' I was probably ranting. Those detection features are running on some servers. With regards to your "using Cyrillic to get around racism", I do understand, and I do agree. If a server host doesn't understand another language, how are they to know what term is racist and what is not?

[/quote']

There is that, and there's also using cyrillic characters to circumvent word detection, like "nigger" <- entirely latin characters compared to "nіggеr" <- cyrillic 'i' and 'e', most word filters are list based and aren't smart enough to notice this.

[jockbhoy@blueyonder.co.uk 3]

Jocktamson' date=' one thing you said struck me. "Have to put up with cyrillic". English is more recognised than any other language. I am not a racist person, I will never said a bad word against any person with regards to their race, religion or beliefs. Everyone has a right to speak their own language.

When people join EU5, I do ask that they speak English, simply because it is an international language. The people that use our server may not understand any other language, and may think that they are being slated for some reason. As I say, I do ask that people speak English, and if they can't, then I provide them with another location to do so, such as out TS3 server that has been set up specifically for DayZ.

I think I'm responding to a post I saw yesterday more than yours, but I hope people get what I mean.

[/quote']

Absolutely agree, the game is about communication, IMO a common language on a server only helps promote more co-operation and team play, it doesn't have to be in english, but a language common to all who use that server, When ours is full, Ive joined plenty of servers and when i find they are not speaking English I find another with a language I do understand...its not being racist, i just want to enjoy the game and understand what other players are saying to me. But i think we are starting to stray off topic....

[Difecti 11]

Without those detectors, people would get away with so much. A word filter is only as smart as the information that is put into it, which brings me back to the whole not know another language issue. The only way this can be fixed its to have a complete list put onto servers, in every language, or to allow server hosts to take the choice into their own hands, within reason and guidelines.

Edit: With regards to the previous post, and going off topic, I will end this side of the discussion now. If another thread is brought up regarding my concerns, I will mention them there, hopefully without offending anyone :)

[jorgamun 2]

Without those detectors' date=' people would get away with so much. A word filter is only as smart as the information that is put into it, which brings me back to the whole not know another language issue. The only way this can be fixed its to have a complete list put onto servers, in every language, or to allow server hosts to take the choice into their own hands, within reason and guidelines.

[/quote']

I'm not against the detectors at all. I don't know why you got that impression.

That is not the only way it can be fixed, also. Smarter detectors use character tokens for analysis rather than plain characters. It's a little bit more resource intensive but it catches cyrillic/numerical/symbolic circumvension. I've written such filters myself, not for ARMA II though.

And back on topic, death dodging is frustrating. I'm hoping to get a response to my post about automatic cheat detection. This is something I could probably implement as an automatic bannable offense after multiple occurrences or however the sensitivity would be set with my cheat detection system.

[Difecti 11]

I'm not saying you are against those detectors, sorry if it came across that way. They can be a useful tool. If implemented the right way.

[jockbhoy@blueyonder.co.uk 3]

If you have views on cyrilic keyboards heres the thread

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6377

[RSF TheCapulet 45]

I think it's important to remember here DayZ team that, as server admins and players, we're here to play a game. We understand that it's an alpha, an experiment, etc. And we're more than happy to help in that regard. But you can't forget the fact that it is infact a game and that people who do things that exploit the game are taking away the playability. And without that playability, we're left with an experiment.

I can even understand saying that it's an alpha and an experiment first above all else. But one of the required factors in the experiment is players playing the game, not dodging exploiters. So it's going to be important to incubate that factor in the experiment to make sure that it survives.

[jorgamun 2]

I think it's important to remember here DayZ team that' date=' as server admins and players, we're here to play a game. We understand that it's an alpha, an experiment, etc. And we're more than happy to help in that regard. But you can't forget the fact that it is infact a game and that people who do things that exploit the game are taking away the playability. And without that playability, we're left with an experiment.

I can even understand saying that it's an alpha and an experiment first above all else. But one of the required factors in the experiment is players playing the game, not dodging exploiters. So it's going to be important to incubate that factor in the experiment to make sure that it survives.

[/quote']

Agreed. If you want, please bump my thread here: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=7390. You can't have cheat handling for such a large userbase be manual. We need some sort of automatic system to handle the bulk of the work.

[Mojo (DayZ) 66]

There is that' date=' and there's also using cyrillic characters to circumvent word detection, like "nigger" <- entirely latin characters compared to "nіggеr" <- cyrillic 'i' and 'e', most word filters are list based and aren't smart enough to notice this.

[/quote']

The trick is to have an admin smart enough to notice this. Battleye Extended has word filters that can handle permutations like this so long as the admin actually remembers to put them in.

[THUNDERMINE 2]

There should not be a banning ability for this.

Too much power is in the moderator/ server owners hands as it is.

If it was built into the mod coding in a way that a players repeated "alt f4" escapes banned them for two days from that server, then that would be more fair.

I'd say three consecutive esapes from servers while wounded within a thirty minute period would constitute a ban from the game for 24 hrs........ anyone with me on that?

[jockbhoy@blueyonder.co.uk 3]

There should not be a banning ability for this.

Too much power is in the moderator/ server owners hands as it is.

If it was built into the mod coding in a way that a players repeated "alt f4" escapes banned them for two days from that server' date=' then that would be more fair.

I'd say three consecutive esapes from servers while wounded within a thirty minute period would constitute a ban from the game for 24 hrs........ anyone with me on that?

[/quote']

Nope, its cheating, no place for cheaters in ArmA period. We dont want it turning into another Battlefield Series F**K UP

[jorgamun 2]

There is that' date=' and there's also using cyrillic characters to circumvent word detection, like "nigger" <- entirely latin characters compared to "nіggеr" <- cyrillic 'i' and 'e', most word filters are list based and aren't smart enough to notice this.

[/quote']

The trick is to have an admin smart enough to notice this. Battleye Extended has word filters that can handle permutations like this so long as the admin actually remembers to put them in.

Hmm, I could write up a little application that converts a standard wordlist into one that contains all permutations if anyone is interested.

[Mojo (DayZ) 66]

I must also say, with regards to this thread in particular and why I resigned my hosting duties (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T THINK THE CHITOWN ORIGINALS ARE GONE, THEY'RE STILL RUN BY OWL), I think everybody needs a little clarification.

I stated yesterday that the rules were standardized as a franchise, and if franchisees did not like the rules the parent brand provided, they could sever their relationship with them. I didn't like the rules; I severed my relationship. It was that simple.

In regards to ALT-F4'ing: earlier in this thread, rocket made reference to EVE as a primary example of emergent gameplay and meta-gaming (and I love EVE and all its general dickfuckery). One of the things you couldn't do in EVE was just ... log out. Have a Titan sitting in a POS in nullsec and try to avoid losing it when the POS drops? (For non-EVE players, read that as "Do you have a giant, very expensive spaceship it took you months to develop the skills to pilot, sitting inside an invulnerable forcefield in a place where no AI guards protect newbies, and you don't want it destroyed when your opponents overwhelm the player-owned station generating that force field") Well, you can't.

It's going to blow up and you're going to lose that ship and no amount of quitting will save you during PvP, and the only solution then is to disband BoB and move across the map.

So, no amount of ALT-F4'ing will save you on my server. You will just lose access to the server. Or would have or should have, anyway. "We stalked a guy for an hour and then he left" isn't death dodging. People have lives and aren't there to die at your command. On the other hand, "we shot a guy twice, he disconnected, came back ten minutes later from a different position, and killed us" well get you got. "I had to stop playing" doesn't fly when you either a) have a pattern of behaviour of dropping every time a person engages you or b) don't stop playing.

Regarding ghosting on TeamSpeak: Again referencing EVE and metagaming, I have zero problem betraying groups, spying on them, stalking them, and eavesdropping. None. It's happened, people have come to me as an administrator, and my reaction is "well, too bad." There is a point, however, where metagaming goes too fucking far. Back to EVE: When Goonswarm/Goonfleet took down BoB and BoB's offshoot corporations in EVE, part of the way that was done was with metagaming.

That metagaming involved managing an "asset" in their group, a spy with high-level access. It did NOT involve violating third party TOS's. In fact, when The Mittani got himself onto the CSM, one of his presentations at the world's largest collection of spreadsheet Asperger's was to state that a player who had messaged the goons in game making suicidal ideations should be encouraged to "kill himself". Welcome to metagaming gone too far.

This is undoubtedly metagaming. After all, how can a person act against you, be an opponent, cause a risk to your assets, if they aren't even alive to play? Of course, this is the whole "going to far" bit. CCP eventually decided that this metagaming was, in fact, a breach of the EULA.

Now, there's a gradient between attempting to hound other players suffering mental illnesses into suicide and putting spies in their ranks, but let's start by defining what is black and what is white.

Here is why I believe ghosting on TS is going too far: FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT ELEVATES THE ADMINISTRATORS OR FRIENDS OF ADMINISTRATORS OR SERVER REGULARS TO SEMI-GODMODE.

Why? Because it allows a level of protection on their communications that pick-up groups and irregulars don't have. On our TeamSpeak server, we have private channels created for my guys, Monolith (composed of several Goonfleet/Goonswarm vets from disparate groups, ironically enough) and Owl has Rho Squad, an entire GF/GS fucking squad. Again, ironically enough.

Other administrators to the TeamSpeak server can create channels and groups. If asked by any player on the server to create a private channel, they are under standing instructions to do so, either passwording the channel for ad hoc groups that ask for one, or creating an entire user group/permission system that restricts entry only to those assigned to that group. This allows communications security that can only be properly penetrated by a mole, which, again, I'm fine with.

What the irregulars and PUGs on the server don't have is that. If they come into TeamSpeak and form an ad hoc group, there is no ability to police that group against forceful penetration. There are, however, checks against regulars and admins having their group forcefully penetrated.

As such, it creates a layer of communications security available to administrators and TS/Server regulars unavailable to pick-up players, and as such elevates us above those players, which directly conflicts with my philosophy that all players can and in fact must play on a level playing field.

The only way to effectively combat this is to create a penalty, a loss of priveleges, to effectively emulate 24/7 administrator presence.

I do this by creating publicly open channels and an EULA/TOS that clearly states that a public channel is owned by the first person to enter it and, for the purposes of accessing that channel, may only be done so on their graces. Entering that channel without permission is tantamount to breaking a zero-character password. You consent to this when you enter the TeamSpeak server. You understand that you are breaking a zero-character password, that this represents a security threat, and that doing so is considered by me equal to asking me directly to be blocked from any server access at the socket level.

Following people through channels is just another way of directly asking me, "may I please be blacklisted in the firewall?" Well, since you were so polite about it, yes you may. This is (or was) made very clear on every channel throughout the server (though I have since removed it since relinquishing my duties) so that no person may plead ignorance.

Think you won't go to jail for breaking and entering because their front door had no lock? Think you won't go to jail for shoplifting because the store had no cameras up? Think you won't go to jail for rape because she wasn't wearing a chastity belt? You're very wrong. Locks, cameras, and other security measures exist as a prevention/mitigation system, not as something that, if lacking, gives you the right to do something you could not and would do if they were present. Period.

As such, this does, beyond a doubt, elevate the administrator and other players to a position of privilege. This runs contradictory to my standards of excellence in the services I provide; namely, that all players feel comfortable in knowing that no person, be they me, friends of mine, or those who have made themselves known to me on a regular basis, are elevated in any way above them.

Again, I reiterated:

This IS NOT because it deprives me of a position of power over my players.

This IS because it elevates me to a position of power over my players.

This directly impinges on my ability to provide a guaranteed minimum level of service excellence to my players.

As such, I cannot, in good conscience, provide hosting.

Understand that these are not my only issues. For example, there is also the issue of the server namespace/nomenclature. Way back when we set the server up, we worked on stabilizing the first server before rolling out a second. I had started asking about another mission file so I could set up Chicago 2. At the time, there were no other servers running in the Chicago namespace. It took me five days of PM'ing and emailing to get that second mission file. In that time Chicagos 2 through 9 came online, and we lost valuable namespace even though we conducted our due diligence and made every effort to communicate, and without regard to the fact that we had proven infrastructure. Early adopters should be encouraged, not discouraged, from providing the service. This does serve as discouragement.

I was asked to change from Chicago 1 Original and Chicago 1 Blues, as we used codenamed namespace to establish and protect our brand. Make no mistake: As much as I enjoy the other administrators in DayZ, and we have learned a lot from each other having each other's backs, we are in competition with each other for donations to maintain sustainability, quality of service, and player support. The brand is important to that. However, in the interests of cooperation, I agreed to do this. We as a society to not get without giving. And, for there part, as the staff responded, they were reasonable and understanding. Even still (and not to get that admin in trouble, hence why I will not name him here) other servers are still operating under the codename system. This wouldn't be a problem if I couldn't go into the server browser and see that Vipeax, a member of the staff, was using "NY" as his namespace. Not "NY [some digit]", just straight "NY". (Picture current as of 26 May 1:30am Eastern) Those of us who were early players/hosts of the mod will remember that the first person to occupy the NY namespace was Jonnerz of HostAltitude. NY1 provided by HostAltitude. I find it simply incredible (and I use that word in the sense of "not credible", not "really impressive") that the staff themselves are not aware of efforts being made to unify the nomenclature while members of the hosting community are being asked to do so. And have no doubts about it: Changing to Chicago 1 and Chicago 20 (I wanted to give the staff the peace of mind that I'd moved well outside the occupied space) has caused confusion among our players, who are asking what happened to Original and Blues. Regulars are having difficulty finding the servers, and our player count has dropped. Cooperation only goes so far; when one member of the staff isn't cooperating with what is being asked of others (others who are, in fact, supporting the player base that would permit this mod to have commercial salability), I have an issue with that. "We're busy" stops being credible when the problem persists six days after I was asked to change.

I've also offered my skillset numerous times to be used at the disposal of the team, including human resources management. The placing of open calls for needed positions, the discretion to place those as temporary or permanent positions, the hiring and firing of personnel. Running two corporations, I've done it all. And I have the corporate filings to show for it, too. Those offers have gone unheeded, and I regret this. Any HR department (regardless of if I was present on it or not, that's just illustrative of known attempts to provide solutions) would act to significantly alleviate the congestion currently being experienced.

That is simply two other grievances I have that has not been resolved in a timely manner and to my satisfaction as a host/provider of a service.

I regret that this had to be raised on the public forums as it did, but with it being addressed to me publicly, and with the DevTeam often incommunicado due to the aforementioned congestion/understaffing, it may be that this is the only method by which to address the issue. Hopefully this will lead to effective solutions that satisfy both the DevTeam and the server hosts which support them. Nothing pisses lil' perfectionist me off like inefficiency, and if there's one thing that's inefficient, it's wasting a perfectly good loss of resources.

[cm. (DayZ) 28]

tldr version please...

[TheEx1le (DayZ) 6]

tldr version please...

You must read it...

[Bonse 0]

This is an exploit.