Third person vs First person view

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

It's like talking to a brick wall that was dropped on its head as a child.

EDIT: It's starting to feel like many of you just like to think you're some superior beings.

Read the OP, this topic was created regarding a COMPROMISE.

It's turned into a pathetic, tautological mess.

"I'm right, because I said so, and I'm right"

Why should your preferences and opinions be more valid than anyone elses?

EDIT2: I sincerely hope there's 1st person only servers for SA, so you can have your cake and find that nobody wants to eat it.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Chabowski

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

He he

I think you're just worried about losing it because you'll be at a disadvantage until you get used to 1st person.

That's exactly what it is.

[RooBurger 285]

If you want to give me an example, post a video of you running 10K after being shot. Eat as many beans as you like.

Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. Benavidez United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of Vietnam. On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance Team was inserted by helicopters in a dense jungle area west of Loc Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Sergeant Benavidez was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the operation by radio when these helicopters returned to off-load wounded crewmembers and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant Benavidez voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled team. Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge, repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitate the landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members. As the enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified documents on the dead team leader. When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment, the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed. Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds, Sergeant Benavidez secured the classified documents and made his way back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter. Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men, reinstilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant Benavidez mustered his strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit another extraction attempt. He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed from behind by an enemy soldier. In the ensuing hand-to-hand combat, he sustained additional wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary.[3][note 1] He then continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter. Upon reaching the aircraft, he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded. Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction aircraft. Sergeant Benavidez' gallant choice to join voluntarily his comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despite numerous severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost credit on him and the United States Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez

[RooBurger 285]

It's like talking to a brick wall that was dropped on its head as a child.

EDIT: It's starting to feel like many of you just like to think you're some superior beings.

Read the OP, this topic was created regarding a COMPROMISE.

It's turned into a pathetic, tautological mess.

"I'm right, because I said so, and I'm right"

Why should your preferences and opinions be more valid than anyone elses?

I'm giving you very specific reasons why I'd like to see it removed. I'm not saying my opinion is worth more than yours, I'm just arguing my position. I just disagree with you, no need to be offended by it.

I don't see how a compromise can be made.

EDIT2: I sincerely hope there's 1st person only servers for SA, so you can have your cake and find that nobody wants to eat it.

That's already the case. I can't find ANY first person servers now.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Probably due to the fact that nobody wants to have their playstyle dictated to them.

Dictators dictate. And they also tend to be unpoular.

[RooBurger 285]

In that case, any game mechanic whatsoever could be be seen the same way. I think you're being a little dramatic :)

It's because people prefer to see around corners without sticking their head out. Simple as that.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Simple as sweeping and ignorant assumption? Well, now we know.

You're honestly just leading me to believe it's you that's simple.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

EDIT: It's starting to feel like many of you just like to think you're some superior beings.

Read the OP, this topic was created regarding a COMPROMISE.

It's turned into a pathetic, tautological mess.

"I'm right, because I said so, and I'm right"

Why should your preferences and opinions be more valid than anyone elses?

It has nothing to do with who is "right". Some of us are just arguing that removing the third person view while correcting the issues that would cause (increase FOV and lower head bob by default, make tall grass shorter) would be a far better solution than trying to find a compromise that is never going to solve the problem when it comes to gunfights anyway. You can't give people an option to peek around corners and make them not see anything at the same time. Seriously, just watch any DayZ video on youtube. Everyone exploits the third person view to all hell. Just because we're all free to do so doesn't make it a non issue. Again, I'm yet to hear one good reason why third person view should stay at all costs, aside from someone just being used to it.

[RooBurger 285]

Simple as sweeping and ignorant assumption? Well, now we know.

You're honestly just leading me to believe it's you that's simple.

OK, tell me exactly why you use third person.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

The "problem" is a matter of perception.

You complaining about something doesn't make it an actual issue.

Just like saying the same things over and over again doesn't make them true.

EDIT: Argh.

Bear with me, I'm on the xbox. Typing is murder, formatting is worse.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Chabowski

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

OK, tell me exactly why you use third person.

I prefer to see what my character is doing.

Before you start. I always play out firefights using 1st person and sights, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this regard. I can't stand running for miles in 1st person view, it makes the most tedious journeys infinitely more boring.

I've played first person servers. They are constantly empty and that makes for boring gameplay.

I want to get entertainment from my game.

EDIT:

I want everyone to be able to play as they please.

The OP suggestion of not allowing 3dp to corner-peek(by restricting camera movement) is a good compromise, if corner-peeking is actually your concern.

Overall, it seems as though you just want everyone to play as you see fit.

You've shown very little effort in the way of expanding on the actual topic at hand.

EDIT2:

To put it in perspective, my preferred franchises include, Hitman, Resident Evil, Splinter-Cell and Mario.

I want to see what my guy is up to. Why is that such an incomprehensible notion?

Edited January 2, 2013 by Chabowski

[RooBurger 285]

The "problem" is a matter of perception.

You complaining about something doesn't make it an actual issue.

Just like saying the same things over and over again doesn't make them true.

Calm the fuck down for a second and think. I've ignored your insults and tried to respond nicely but I'm getting tired of this. You're being a silly bitch.

I prefer to see what my character is doing.

Same here, it's nice to know exactly where the body of the character is in relation to other objects. In reality you have a better idea of where your body parts are, and third person helps with that.

But in my humble opinion, which is all I'm offering here, this is far outweighed by the other more unrealistic properties of a third person view which we all take advantage of. I would personally prefer that it were removed, which I think would make the game more realistic overall.

DayZ is harsh, unforgiving, gritty, realistic, and I love it for that. Considering the style of the game, I think first person is far more appropriate, whereas third person is more appropriate for games like Gears of War.

[RooBurger 285]

Before you start. I always play out firefights using 1st person and sights, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this regard.

I find that hard to believe, I'm sorry.

The OP suggestion of not allowing 3dp to corner-peek(by restricting camera movement) is a good compromise, if corner-peeking is actually your concern.

Are there any examples where this actually worked in another game? So that you have third person but can't see around corners and over walls?

[RooBurger 285]

EDIT2:

To put it in perspective, my preferred franchises include, Hitman, Resident Evil, Splinter-Cell and Mario.

I want to see what my guy is up to. Why is that such an incomprehensible notion?

Mario? You can't see the difference between these games and Dayz?

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

What you believe has no bearing on me or what I do.

This is the suggestion section, for suggestions.

AFAIK there's never been such a furore about camera angles.

What example am I supposed to give in context to what is widely considered a groundbreaking concept?

It's not impossible to have ray-casting, from the player model, control how far the camera goes round a corner.

RE: Mario?! . The differences between DayZ and other properties shouldn't be important in determining it's own design.

This has been my main point. If Rocket truly wanted DayZ to be FPV only, it would have been that way from the get-go.

In giving my gaming examples, I'm just adding perspective. Something in which it seems many are sorely lacking.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Since I'm leaving justnow, I just want to say that I totally see where you're coming from.

I don't mean to argue, but I can't help the fact that I disagree.

If I can go hypothetical for a second. IMO 3rdperson only would be a worse condition than 1stperson only.

It's the ability to focus on different aspects of the world in different situations that I'm trying to defend here.

It's not an either/or stance that I'm proposing.

If the 3dp camera was made to prevent roof-peeking etc. would you be satisfied?

If all the eggs are in the "periscope" basket, and the only other factor is camera preference, the OP should be getting your support.

[RooBurger 285]

What you believe has no bearing on me or what I do.

This is the suggestion section, for suggestions.

AFAIK there's never been such a furore about camera angles.

What example am I supposed to give in context to what is widely considered a groundbreaking concept?

It's not impossible to have ray-casting, from the player model, control how far the camera goes round a corner.

RE: Mario?! . The differences between DayZ and other properties shouldn't be important in determining it's own design.

This has been my main point. If Rocket truly wanted DayZ to be FPV only, it would have been that way from the get-go.

In giving my gaming examples, I'm just adding perspective. Something in which it seems many are sorely lacking.

Your angle that you're some kind of victim while I'm an oppressor is strange to me.

We're discussing the suggestion in the OP just fine.

If I can be shown that a compromise will work, I'll change my mind. But right now I'm not convinced at all.

In the end, I really don't believe there is a good chance that it'll actually be removed. You shouldn't have much to worry about.

[RooBurger 285]

Since I'm leaving justnow, I just want to say that I totally see where you're coming from.

I don't mean to argue, but I can't help the fact that I disagree.

Nothing wrong with differing opinions.

If I can go hypothetical for a second. IMO 3rdperson only would be a worse condition than 1stperson only.

It's the ability to focus on different aspects of the world in different situations that I'm trying to defend here.

It's not an either/or stance that I'm proposing.

If the 3dp camera was made to prevent roof-peeking etc. would you be satisfied?

If all the eggs are in the "periscope" basket, and the only other factor is camera preference, the OP should be getting your support.

Yeah, I'd be satisfied. Like I said above, if I can be shown a working example I'll definitely change my mind and support the OP.

[badbenson (DayZ) 38]

ok. just ignoring the weird people and trying to get this back on track.

posted by WiFin:

Guys, guys, GUYS!

It's not about removing TP or not - it's about fixing the exploit with it.

The rant about removing or keeping it can go forever!... Any more ideas about the mechanics?

...where the hell are the moderators?

RooBurger are you some kind of social worker? i love how you are calmly reacting to the irrationality.

[dystopeon 46]

here's the fix. continue selling current dayz mod & make the SA 1st person only. people will buy both games = PROFIT.

[RooBurger 285]

ok. just ignoring the weird people and trying to get this back on track.

posted by WiFin:

...where the hell are the moderators?

RooBurger are you some kind of social worker? i love how you are calmly reacting to the irrationality.

DO YOU EVEN LIFT BRO HUH DO YA

[Wep0n 532]

I think most people agree that this third person exploit is the ultimate disadvantage of third person.

even some first person fanatics would not have anything against third person mode if it would be used fairly.

here are some things ive gathered so far.

mostly ideas from other people i picked up.

(notice the sqares in my shitty drawings is the camera)

Three obvious simple points to focus on:

• The exploit only takes effect when a player is behind of a medium sized object, such as a car or human sized Wall, or Lying ontop of an object such as a Roof, or being around a corner.
  
• If point 1 is true, the player can spot players while not being able to be spotted.
  
• If a player is about three meters away from the object the effect can mostly be ignored. it also does not take place if the object is lower than the payers point of view.
  

Hinder Player vision

One idea made by several people was to make things invisible the player could not see. this could be made from the client side.

A way to make it more clear for a player which places he is not able to see is to include a blur at places to obscur the player's view. i photoshopped some scenes from a youtube video just to visualize how it could look like and where the problems could be.

as you can see, that method seems to work pretty well on situations like windows, where there is little blur. on the other hand it looks very crappy if you got half of your screen blurred.

i am not sure if a professional graphic design could make such a large blur acceptably looking.

but keep in mind that this effect will not take place everywhere, but just when you move close to an object.

Restricting Camera Angle

A very easy way to deal with exploitation on rooftops is to simply lock the camera angle while lying on the ground.

You will not be able anymore to look at the ground, aslong the camera (blue) keeps a low angle.

this mechanism should also work for inside cars.

Lock to First person in certain Situations

while climbing a ladder lock to first person. you should not be able to see the surface of the roof while the head is still not on top.

the player can easily spot people on the roof whitout them noticing him. while you climb you are anyways not in control of your character, so locking it to first person in that case might be very acceptable.

lock it to first person in buildings also a possibility but very disputable. alot of this exploit happens when people are in the corner of a room and see what is actually behind the door.

also looking out of a window whitout beeing seen.

also disputable is the locking of the camera to first person while in vehicles.

Move Camera closer to Character

By simply keeping the camera closer to the person this exploit gets MASSIVELY reduced.

but this is very disputable since some features of third person get lost that way.

it still gives you a rough self awareness of what your character is doing though.

Conclusion:

-Simple things like locking the camera angle while lying on the ground or inside of a car, aswell as forcing first person during actions like ladderclimbing might fix some issues very easily, and whitout being too controversial.

-other things like blurring the vision on certain areas might work if the technical and visual components could work, but heavily disputabe, and it might end up looking very shitty after all.

as a small sidenote, i think third person will be awesome if fixed, especially with something awesome as this:

http://dayzmod.com/f...smk-animations/

Edited January 10, 2013 by Wep0n

[RooBurger 285]

Beans for effort.

[veristaya 71]

I play 3rd person so I can look at my cool character, the gear, stuff like that. If 3rdp is taken out in the SA I won't buy it, I dislike games where I can't see what my character is doing

[MarcDaKind 37]

I play 3rd person so I can look at my cool character, the gear, stuff like that. If 3rdp is taken out in the SA I won't buy it, I dislike games where I can't see what my character is doing

I think Sims is the game you are looking for, not DayZ... http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/372158-the-sims-3-windows-screenshot-character-creations.jpg