Consequences of player killing - a new direction!

[Eza (DayZ) 11]

Some of these people in Day Z, roleplay their characters being ex-soldiers and shit.

I'd say the idea itself is pretty good, but I don't wanna see it added, mainly because of the fact that I'd prolly be very annoyed by it.

Some of the modern warfare 3 kiddies too play like they are ex-soldiers.

I´d say, add it! it´s zombie apocalypse! lets make it even harder! killing zombies is already hard enough with constant fatal bleeding from little scratches and fact that if you shoot, you´re pretty much ringing dinner bell, so why don´t we make it hard to kill players? lets add consequences!! in reality there´s always consequences for what you do!!

[Huuwap 25]

lets add consequences!! in reality there´s always consequences for what you do!!

You mean like legal ramifications as a result of actions in developed countries? Yeah, there's no legal system here, and it's entirely possible that one would not feel guilt or go psychotic over what one saw as necessary murders. The consequence for killing someone may well be getting killed by one of his nearby buddies, or you may completely get away with it to be killed by somebody you never even see two days later. It is a lawless state and you can't hard-code emotions that are not the same for everybody.

[DreamDragon 24]

So how should the developers add 'consequences' without them being obnoxious and overly intruding to the gaming experience? Despite that, I myself would see some influence within the game that gets peoples attention so they rather wish to interact with others then hurting them. witnessing how players slaughter others just for the heck of it I really want to see a system that grows with the character and his/hers actions through time.

So if a character slaughters many other characters then a trait be added, relative to previous experiences of course to add complexity and randomness, that stays with the character until he or she is actually trying to change their behaviour. It's then up to the player if they actually see this trait to be a burden or blessing.

[jay.pis 32]

It is about making players paranoid, nervous, twitchy and increasingly uncomfortable without any specific in game penalty.

I don't know about you or anyone else BUT playing this game with headphones on and turned up pretty loud in WITH the sound FX AND the music already gives me those effects. No extra programming needed. :thumbsup:

Edited July 19, 2012 by jay.pis

[elliotle 6]

You mean like legal ramifications as a result of actions in developed countries? Yeah, there's no legal system here, and it's entirely possible that one would not feel guilt or go psychotic over what one saw as necessary murders. The consequence for killing someone may well be getting killed by one of his nearby buddies, or you may completely get away with it to be killed by somebody you never even see two days later. It is a lawless state and you can't hard-code emotions that are not the same for everybody.

The fact of the matter is that you keep making comparisons to what it would be like in real life. No legal system? Yeah, but there is also no disaster in the history of the world where everybody decided to kill everybody else in their society. Any mechanic that makes murderers the minority is bringing the game closer to reality and authenticity. I'm probably one of the few people on this board who has actually had to shoot somebody. It isn't fun and it does have negative effects in your life.

All the internet tough guys poo poo any answer somebody brings up to make the game more realistic. Guess what...you're all keyboard commandos. You couldn't and wouldn't survive a real disaster because the people who survive disasters are people with a moral code who group together.

[urspider2018@gmail.com 109]

The fact of the matter is that you keep making comparisons to what it would be like in real life. No legal system? Yeah, but there is also no disaster in the history of the world where everybody decided to kill everybody else in their society. Any mechanic that makes murderers the minority is bringing the game closer to reality and authenticity. I'm probably one of the few people on this board who has actually had to shoot somebody. It isn't fun and it does have negative effects in your life.

All the internet tough guys poo poo any answer somebody brings up to make the game more realistic. Guess what...you're all keyboard commandos. You couldn't and wouldn't survive a real disaster because the people who survive disasters are people with a moral code who group together.

Just because I don't have a moral code on the internet doesn't mean I don't have one in life.

Now listen closely, because I'm going to say something important here.

THIS IS A VIDEO GAME

I play games to escape from the moral code and legal ramifications of my real life. I'm a bandit in DayZ, so what? Does this mean that in an actual apocalypse I'm going to be running around with an As50 shooting people in cities for lulz? OF COURSE NOT!

Behavior in a game =/= behavior in real life. Stealing cars and running over prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto doesn't make me a criminal, and being a bandit in DayZ isn't going to make me a mass murderer in an apocalypse.

[adamhodsdon399@hotmail.com 9]

I must say that i think this is a good series of ideas. It's not punishing (as you say) but might give bandits and small reason to think twice in a way. Imagine hearing a voice and thinking it's over direct comms or seeing a player body standing in front of you only to disappear. It'd be a cool mechanic that'd unsettle them.

Safe to say, you have my beans man :)

[BathSalts 4]

OP and some supporters are imposing their own misperceptions of reality on others and taking the passive aggressive route of thanking those who disagree for their input while simultaneously insulting them for it.

OP seems to think everybody must take happy pills to cope, and that everyone who disagrees needs to take happy pills. How dismissive. Plus, Anti-Depressants ruin peoples lives. If you're taking them - they're pruning your neurodendrites. If you're depressed, your life sucks.

Logical fallacies everywhere. OP is 'projecting' his worldview and is not admitting he wants to punish players and is talking around in circles. Something a 'sane' person doesn't do. OP wants DayZ and everyone else to think like him so that he feels normal, but can't admit it.

Survivors deal with what comes. The game as it is is more authentic now than most any other game. Just surviving the updates is hard. My heart is ALREADY pounding in game, I'm ALREADY paranoid when I've got good gear or kill out of self defense, and what you suggest as an 'addition' to the game will absolutely take away the realism that is already present, because what you suggest is not only redundant but will appear as inauthentic as well. You're 'Gilding the Lily'.

I'm putting this bluntly to avoid any more flowery language as response, as I like being direct, honest, and to the point. And also because some cling so hard to an unsound idea and weakly assume a mocking superior attitude as response to the community for feedback that may not have been anticipated.

We disagree not because we are wrong, we disagree because quite potentially we are right, and I don't see that OP is allowing for this fact.

End of Session: 1 can of beans, please

Oh, and I've only killed 4 people total so it's not like a want to just murder everyone I see. I avoid, I hide, I see others before they see me, if I don't I might be dead. But those who stumble onto me by accident or choose to shoot first suffer the same reaction - I will protect my gear and my beans.

Edited July 19, 2012 by BathSalts

[Huuwap 25]

That is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. Most of us kill out of perceived necessity, and I'd mostly blame in-game communication options over anything else. Now if voice worked well (I can't hear half of what is said to me) this may be a non-issue, but as it is the only armed players I don't KoS are in the mumble channel with me.

[Cpt.Vilja 15]

Why so many people are crying about punishing Bandits ?

ATM their are 2 bigger play styles Survivors and Bandits. The Bandits have it much easier right now because there are no consequences.

Bandits disadvantages : No Bloodpacks (if you are not in a group of Bandits) , being alone (if you are not in a group of Bandits).

Survivors disadvantages : You must have balls lowering your gun and not shoot first spoting other guys (right now A BIG DISADVANTAGE because 9/10 people shoot you), need more time looting houses for good things (bandits get loot via kills)

So..which disadvantages are bigger ? Yeah the survivors are pretty fucked. Of course they can travel in a group, but Bandits are doing the same so ,this advantag is gone.

And why in the hell people are acting like somebody is supporting things like raping or worldhunger when people start talking about Bandits and punshment them ? Are we not allowed to talk about the dis and advantages of Bandits and make sugestions about it without being flanked as carebears ? I see alot of people making sometimes really good suggestions (the most suck) but still people whine "DONT PUNISH MY PLAYSTYLE"

Dont get me wrong PVP is great, its get my always pumped hearing gunshots in the far and i also had alot of gunfights which mad me really nervouse (By the way i love Dayz) ..but right now its just unbalanced.

[BathSalts 4]

"I'd mostly blame in-game communication options over anything else." - Agreed. It needs work, and we also need an animation to holster pistols.

And I can think of a simpler solution than introducing a whole host of different audio cues and 'hallucinations' in game to dissuade players from getting locked into killing other players.

Reveal more player data.

In loading screen, or when you hit I for Info - if we could see how many murders, zombie, and bandit kills are assigned to each player on the server I think it would give the crucial data we need in order to assess the risk of interacting with other players. If possible, see how many times a player has healed or equipped another player. You could see the good guys/ bad guys. You could see if there was a group of murderers on a server, you could see how many fresh characters with few zombie kills etc. You would have the data required to assess for yourself what posture to take on any server, and find the server you want to play on. If you could assess your threat level, then you don't have to go into maximum threat I'm-gonna-shoot-before-I-get-shot mode CONSTANTLY.

Also maybe we DO need to have "Player killed NextPlayer" to scroll on the bottom?

If you like to PvP, you would be able to tell how many PvP'ers are on a server so you can play without causing grief and argument (or maybe grief and argument are exactly what you're after hmm? but that's a whole other subject lol).

And if you are a carebear like me you would be able to make better decisions, too.

It's a simple mechanic that would evolve the players naturally and wouldn't force the game to go on rails.

This game needs to stay raw so that the feeling part stays up to us players - if this thing goes all Hollywood it'll eat shit.

[Madfast 22]

"This is not about punishing players who kill players" "Lets make them PvPers randomly hallucinate". Hallucinations are a bad thing, players who kill players get this, It is a punishment. So yes you are suggesting a way of punishing PvP. Best way to combat PvP is too play the game like what it is, a tactical shooter. Stay in cover as much as possible, both physical and visual, you won't get shot. Move fast and randomly when out of cover, you will be unlikely to get shot. Surprising how it works isn't it? That if you get better at the game you will die less. I have died from another player once in my entire time playing, and I have been playing since the early days, and that one time was my own fault. Instead of people rushing to the forums when they die to suggest there great new idea to deal with PvP, perhaps deal with it yourselves, in-game.

[o_grande_rafael 24]

well, i really don't know what must be done, but the unrully PvP is killing the game for someone who doesn't like/have the skill to head into cherno.

in real life i shoot with everything (from english longbows to HK PSG1) and have as hobby jungle surviving (yes, i play dayz real life, and since i was 12 yo). give me a good knife and i'll follow Bear Grills. but the game, despite all the good simulation, is nothing like the real deal. at least not in brasil. perhaps the woodlands in europe or n.america...

i think the problem here is the same they have (imho) in battleground europe: dying is easy, but killing too. in real life shooting well is not easy as in the game.

to shoot like the game the guy is some kind of ranger/spec ops/mercenary. and to snipe more than 500m you must be used and trained with the specific gun. grab a glock/1911 and try to triple-tap instintively. it is nothing like the game. and in game we are mostly civilians.

all right, people turn to games to do what they can't do in real life. but my feeling is that shooting each other is enought for day-z. you dont have to shoot like a Zaitsev.

[hyperpengysan@gmail.com 2]

These events could be of the following nature;

• Hearing footsteps following you. Stopping & starting when you do. But there's nothing there.
  
• Hearing voices. "I/we see you". "We know what you've done". "We're coming". "Remember us". "They're here". etc. etc. etc.
  
• Other auditory hallucinations. Gunshots etc. (Thanks to Rafael - BR - Friendly for the suggestion)
  
• Seeing something out of the corner of your eye / at the edge of the screen that you can never bring into focus.
  
• Full scale apparitions, figures that appear/disappear and/or follow you at different times.
  

These events should only be visible/audible to the character concerned and should have no effect other than to unsettle that character and make them more paranoid.

Great ideas that I would like to add to:

On servers with tags, tags will be randomly shuffled for the bandit. Kind of like the onset of dementia. So let's say they have a friend called Paul. Well, suddenly, Paul's tag will change to the tag of another person on the server for a random amount of time. This represents the inability to recognize people and might lead to more friendly fire amongst bandits, especially if they are, say scattered while moving through a town. Even zombies might gain tags.

I don't like the idea of apparitions. But auditory hallucinations are good.

That said, some of these experiences should also happen to regular players. Not as severely ( no scream, no tag change ), but it would be a shame if only bandits got to experience these experiences.

To all the people who are saying the game shouldn't be trying to 'nerf' PvP, here's the thing: Day Z is a survival game. The impetuous should be survival. When you play the game, you should be thinking about survival. Even when you play as a bandit, you need to be thinking about survival, not griefing players from a hill 600m out of Cherno, shitting all over their day just so you can get your shits and giggles. How the hell are you even going to collect the guy's beans that you would want if you were trying to survive? That's the key difference. Players who really want to roleplay as The Bandit are already enjoying the game to the fullest extend possible to them when roleplaying as the infamous bandit; they can take an inconvenience hit; some of these changes might even add to the experience. And as they have fun, they will add to the emerging game world through their notoriety. The goal isn't to dissuade dedicated bandits. However, changes that would de-incenticize, or even make the game not fun for griefers are good. If griefers leave the game entirely, even if they cry all over the forums, that's a good thing. There is never a reason to improve gamplay for griefers.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Celestin

[lockie1976 39]

i would like to make it clear from the outset, I personally have no objections to PvP as it stands. This post is NOT about penalising players that kill other players. It is about the consequences of player killing and how they might be incorporated into DayZ in an authentic manner.

• Hearing footsteps following you. Stopping & starting when you do. But there's nothing there.
  
• Hearing voices. "I/we see you". "We know what you've done". "We're coming". "Remember us". "They're here". etc. etc. etc.
  
• Other auditory hallucinations. Gunshots etc. (Thanks to Rafael - BR - Friendly for the suggestion)
  
• Seeing something out of the corner of your eye / at the edge of the screen that you can never bring into focus.
  
• Full scale apparitions, figures that appear/disappear and/or follow you at different times.
  

These events should only be visible/audible to the character concerned and should have no effect other than to unsettle that character and make them more paranoid.

What? why would you suddenly develope these serious mental illnesses for murder... sorry but this is not the way forward.

If you want to slow PvP down you need high risk assoiated to shooting... whatever that needs to be. ie zombies can hear gunshots from alot further away, the gunshot impairs your hearing for 60 seconds etc etc

or

Remove thermal weapons, remove sniper/scoped (acog) weapons (Iron, Aim, Holo and kobra are all fine), remove 3dp... thats a massive start to removing the ass hat pvp.

[Zeromentor 169]

I do not support this.

People don't turn into schizophrenics or show mild signs of PTSD and sleep deprivation just because they killed someone.

OP might as well have just said, "I want sanity meters!" because that is what he is asking for, without the meter. No support from me, I hate the idea of sanity in this mod. Doesn't fit well into the core gameplay. If Rocket decides he wants it, fine, but this is my opinion.

[thermonuke1@gmail.com 110]

The fact of the matter is that you keep making comparisons to what it would be like in real life. No legal system? Yeah, but there is also no disaster in the history of the world where everybody decided to kill everybody else in their society. Any mechanic that makes murderers the minority is bringing the game closer to reality and authenticity. I'm probably one of the few people on this board who has actually had to shoot somebody. It isn't fun and it does have negative effects in your life.

I guess you weren't watching the same hurricane Katrina I was.

Edited July 20, 2012 by ThermoNuke

[o_grande_rafael 24]

I do not support this.

People don't turn into schizophrenics or show mild signs of PTSD and sleep deprivation just because they killed someone.

OP might as well have just said, "I want sanity meters!" because that is what he is asking for, without the meter. No support from me, I hate the idea of sanity in this mod. Doesn't fit well into the core gameplay. If Rocket decides he wants it, fine, but this is my opinion.

people who shoot other just for the fun of it are SERIOUSLY SCHIZO, PSYCO and SICK.

players have no repect for whatever aspect of reality. that is why there is supressing fire implemented on the game.

who is the dumb who sticks the head out of cover when being supressed by machinegun fire? none, but you see it happening all the time in other games that dont have this feature.

i still dont know what to do. but something must be done.

[thermonuke1@gmail.com 110]

people who shoot other just for the fun of it are SERIOUSLY SCHIZO, PSYCO and SICK.

players have no repect for whatever aspect of reality. that is why there is supressing fire implemented on the game.

who is the dumb who sticks the head out of cover when being supressed by machinegun fire? none, but you see it happening all the time in other games that dont have this feature.

i still dont know what to do. but something must be done.

Get better?

[o_grande_rafael 24]

you mean my playing skills? why should i? to get into PvPing all the time and become a sadistic bastard who have pleasure on seeing other's game ruined for nothing? a guy who wont raise a feather to help anyone? a paranoic hermit whose only happiness is seeing another hermit's brain gushing out of his head? nah, thank you. to became a monster i rather live with a hatchet, knife and matches herding sheeps in the north fields. at night. in empty servers.

well, i believe that your real self shows out when you have no rules to follow. as Myiamoto Musashi said: a samurai is even in the loneliness of a dark cave. what i see in this game is the world is near it's end...

[heretic (DayZ) 76]

OP and some supporters are imposing their own misperceptions of reality on others and taking the passive aggressive route of thanking those who disagree for their input while simultaneously insulting them for it.

OP seems to think everybody must take happy pills to cope, and that everyone who disagrees needs to take happy pills. How dismissive. Plus, Anti-Depressants ruin peoples lives. If you're taking them - they're pruning your neurodendrites. If you're depressed, your life sucks.

Logical fallacies everywhere. OP is 'projecting' his worldview and is not admitting he wants to punish players and is talking around in circles. Something a 'sane' person doesn't do. OP wants DayZ and everyone else to think like him so that he feels normal, but can't admit it.

Survivors deal with what comes. The game as it is is more authentic now than most any other game. Just surviving the updates is hard. My heart is ALREADY pounding in game, I'm ALREADY paranoid when I've got good gear or kill out of self defense, and what you suggest as an 'addition' to the game will absolutely take away the realism that is already present, because what you suggest is not only redundant but will appear as inauthentic as well. You're 'Gilding the Lily'.

I'm putting this bluntly to avoid any more flowery language as response, as I like being direct, honest, and to the point. And also because some cling so hard to an unsound idea and weakly assume a mocking superior attitude as response to the community for feedback that may not have been anticipated.

We disagree not because we are wrong, we disagree because quite potentially we are right, and I don't see that OP is allowing for this fact.

End of Session: 1 can of beans, please

Oh, and I've only killed 4 people total so it's not like a want to just murder everyone I see. I avoid, I hide, I see others before they see me, if I don't I might be dead. But those who stumble onto me by accident or choose to shoot first suffer the same reaction - I will protect my gear and my beans.

[Zeromentor 169]

people who shoot other just for the fun of it are SERIOUSLY SCHIZO, PSYCO and SICK.

players have no repect for whatever aspect of reality. that is why there is supressing fire implemented on the game.

who is the dumb who sticks the head out of cover when being supressed by machinegun fire? none, but you see it happening all the time in other games that dont have this feature.

i still dont know what to do. but something must be done.

You obviously have no background in psychology, and have probably never even taken a class, much less read a book. Who says all murders are for fun? Self Defense isn't for fun. Preemptive murder isn't for fun. Killing someone because you are starving to death, and you think they might have food, isn't for fun. But shooting at someone doesn't mean that you are crazy, and thinking that shows limited logic skills and a poor rationale belief system.

I've seen players run into incoming fire not just in this game, but others. Including games where they punish these kinds of fools (like Battlefield 3). People are stupid, you can't hold their hand and expect it to change, they will stay stupid and never learn. If you give them an unforgiving system, they will either adapt, or come to the forums and bitch about what they see as problems, and try to force their own ideas upon a community that does not want said ideas to be implemented.

Oh, and watch documentaries, or view photos of people in third world countries fighting each other. They are untrained, uneducated and tend to do the same thing you see people do ingame. Full auto at range, missing and wasting multiple rounds, killing for what others view as a stupid reason, never take proper cover and can't follow the simplist instructions for group play. I'm not saying that those ingame are third world, and uneducated, but I am saying people do the same damn thing over and over again, and trying to change them just causes them to find other methods for doing something stupid.

And I don't think Rocket wants to babysit people, so a sanity meter won't be added as a punishment for bandits.

Oh, and if anyone was to kill someone for fun it would be a Psychopath. Not a schizophrenic. And many sources don't like to use "Psychopath" as an official term, but I'd suggest educating yourself in any case.

[drseptapus 49]

The only way I see combating bandits, is if the game makes it to a stage where the players are able to police themselves. Survivors lock down a high priority location. Don't let bandits in. "Oh really? You have a broken leg and are bleeding out? Too bad we have reports of you murdering for soda and are an asshole." An in game pen/paper system would really help with this, keeping a record of known bandits would be huge.

[subvision 14]

i would like to make it clear from the outset, I personally have no objections to PvP as it stands. This post is NOT about penalising players that kill other players. It is about the consequences of player killing and how they might be incorporated into DayZ in an authentic manner.

This idea was born from reading some of the posts on this great thread; http://dayzmod.com/f...-urban-legends/

This got me to thinking that it would be an interesting twist to player killing, to attempt to model the effects of conscience on those that kill others without punishing them.

In essence, my suggestion is that each character has a small percentage chance of experiencing an "event" during a gaming session. That small percentage chance increases, as a characters number of murders rises.

e.g. A character with 1 murder might have a 0.1% chance of an event occurring. A character with 25 murders might have a 0.5% chance of an event occuring etc. (Figures are examples only).

These events could be of the following nature;

• Hearing footsteps following you. Stopping & starting when you do. But there's nothing there.
  
• Hearing voices. "I/we see you". "We know what you've done". "We're coming". "Remember us". "They're here". etc. etc. etc.
  
• Other auditory hallucinations. Gunshots etc. (Thanks to Rafael - BR - Friendly for the suggestion)
  
• Seeing something out of the corner of your eye / at the edge of the screen that you can never bring into focus.
  
• Full scale apparitions, figures that appear/disappear and/or follow you at different times.
  

These events should only be visible/audible to the character concerned and should have no effect other than to unsettle that character and make them more paranoid.

If done subtly, I think that this could provide an interesting game mechanic to the survival horror genre depicted in DayZ.

Many thanks to those that have already expressed an interest in this idea.

Your thoughts please!

This is going in the right Direction. There should be a Penalty for Player-Killers. You have my Beans, as I find the idea great. Especially hearing Gunshots could be funny. But the Percentage of the Penalty should be higher. 20% of Chance triggering Event while have killed 5 Players. I don't expect DayZ to become a Social Platform, but Player-Killing should not be normal. In most Cases Players shoot first and ask Questions - never. This should not be normal and I am for a harsh Penalty to make the Player more paranoid, as you stated in your Post up there.

[darrkbeast 0]

This topic along with all the others about pvp are a waste of time. Pvp players win everytime, any sugestion to fix that and they say the people are wusses or what not. I think there should be some balance. I think shooting someone in the back, or shooting a unarmed person is just to easy. It doesnt take any skill to do that, and in this game it is one sided. I would prefer a even match, at least then when I make the kill I really earned it. But making it harder to kill will never happen, people feel way to acomplished for killing unarmed surviors. That being said I still very much enjoy the game 99% of the time, and I dont want to see pvp go away.