Suggestion: Handcuffs and subduing

[Bogeyman 23]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on these forums. I'm a simple game design student, and I couldn't sleep last night as I was thinking about DayZ. I have plenty of ideas, but I'll stick to one of them for now.

Suggestion in short:

An option to subdue other players, and once subdued they can be handcuffed or otherwise restrained depending on what you have available (such as rope, or duct tape). Once secured, they can be fully looted, dragged and stuffed in a passenger seat for transport.

In-game usage specifics:

To avoid exploitation and overly annoying usage, certain criteria need to be fulfilled to be able to subdue another player. Such criteria could be that the target:

- Has passed out

- Has broken legs

- Blood < 2k (number pulled out of my ass)

- Has used a type of /surrender function (is there something like this already?)

Origin of the idea:

I had been thinking about banditry, and the psychology that drives players towards killing other players. Some are born bandits, but I suspect most have simply adapted to a cruel and unforgiving world in which there are few options besides shooting to kill. I don't think banditry needs to be punished. It should have consequences of some sort though, and I think rocket already has some good ideas for that, but they would be sort of pointless if almost everyone acts like a bandit out of necessity.

So I was thinking about the underlying Humanity system, and how players who don't want to be bandits can find a way to deal with other players in a more humane way. Letting someone live is often too huge of a risk.

Caveats:

Obviously, subduing would often-times be very impractical. Let's say you spot a sniper overlooking Stary Sobor. Trying to subdue and cuff him isn't much of an option. Even if you were able to safely incapacitate him with a body-shot or two without killing him, going to his body and cuffing him puts you at risk. Who knows how many of his friends are waiting for you? Still, I think my idea could lead to amazing moments in the game, and with some supplementary changes I do feel it could distinguish ruthless bandits from staunch survivors.

Supplementary suggestions:

1. Cuffing a target would (as I see it) have to incur a temporary drop in humanity (reset upon un-cuffing) or preferably the drop in humanity would come if at any time the target would die before being un-cuffed (even if he simply "bites his tongue", aka uses respawn). I foresee a possible exploit though (or maybe a feature?), namely a team of players could cuff other players, then un-cuff them somewhere to have them executed by the team's executioner, and so they don't need to get their hands (and humanity) dirty. If necessary this could be averted by something along the lines of: if the cuffed player is killed within 5 minutes after being un-cuffed you still get the drop in humanity.

2. Lethality might need some rebalancing to make it somewhat practical to subdue instead of murder. Obviously being shot is lethal, and it needs to remain authentic. So is there a way to increase survivability in a way that doesn't affect gameplay too much besides giving more opportunities to subdue/cuff an opponent? I imagine it would involve something along the lines of death not being reached at 0 blood, but at maybe -1k or -2k blood. Instead you'll be incapacitated at 0 blood, and slowly bleeding to death unless you are given some kind of aid. At any time during this you can just click "respawn", and it will count as a murder for whoever pushed you below 0 blood. This will give a small chance for you to show your true self. The threat is gone, and the stranger is incapacitated. Will you just leave him to die a slow death (or be rescued by his friends)? Will you secure his weapon, save his life and let him go? Or will you use the opportunity to live out even more sadistic tendencies...? Imagine the terror in that situation, clinging to the hope that you might be kept alive and set free with most of your gear, or they might execute you in a shed, or feed you to the infected.

3. This is more of a side-note, but I'll add it anyway. In addition to the handcuffing, perhaps you should be able to blind-fold as well. This might take more away than add to the experience, but perhaps if you leave a strip of vision to the top and bottom of the screen the player would still be engaged in trying to see something, and/or opacity could be used to give some limited sight through the blind-fold. It should still block enough that you'll have a very hard time knowing what direction you're going if transported in a car.

Random reasoning about my idea:

Just a few hours ago I saw the Q&A with rocket at Rezzed, and he mentioned an instance of a player being threatened and taken as a hostage, and even used to enter buildings to see if they were secure. That seems like a very organic way to do sort of what my idea is about, and with that perspective my suggestion might seem a bit contrived in comparison. If it's already possible to do as-is (sort of), why implement specific mechanics for it? Also, kidnappings and such might become common to the point where they're simply not anything special anymore.

These are reasonable concerns, but whether it's because I'm biased or something else, I still think my idea could work well. The game pace is slow enough that it won't happen very often, there will still be a lot of people who prefer to just kill you and be done with it, and the game should still be lethal enough to make subduing a challenge.

Anyway, hopefully my train of thought isn't too far off from rocket's core design of the game.

Comments are welcome!

[na82008 10]

i like this idea, but i think it should only be doable by rope, and after a period of time, you could break free, if you where bound by rope and you kept working it and softening it eventually you could escape it, but i think that once you tie some one up, you would have to heal him somehow so if he did break free he wouldn't die off no blood, maybe since when they kid nap you the wont what you to remember the path (if in real life) they would probably carry you every where and need to give you food so you wont die. and in them caring you every where since your not useing energy blood could regenorate, and if they need to feed you, than they would be regenerating some blood,

[TimberW. 0]

I agree with the rope idea instead of handcuffs, especially considering you will be more likely to find rope than handcuffs. Another option would be duct tape.

One possibility regarding the lethality issue would be to add LTL (Less-Than-Lethal) weapons and/or ammo.

Examples: rubber/wax/plastic bullets (maybe AK, STANAG, and a few [not all] pistols?), rubber slugs/pellets for shotguns, M203 Bean Bag round, Taser (Takes up sidearm slot when in use, tool-belt slot when not [like flashlight]), flashbang grenade, etc.

-TW

[Bogeyman 23]

Wow the suggestion forum is active! My post got literally buried. :lol:

Anyway, thanks for the feedback!

Concerning being able to escape your bonds: maybe after a certain amount of time you could free yourself, but that time would be able to reset by maintaining the knots. I don't see it as a problem if you're not able to free yourself, I mean you could just as well be dead and it would not be in your power to stop it. This is no different. At any point you can throw in the towel and click the "respawn" button, but then you would lose everything. Rocket said (in the Rezzed Q&A) that he thought of gameplay firstly in the form of what kind of feelings he wanted his players to experience in the game. One of those feelings were frustration. Being randomly sniped in a field isn't any less frustrating than being kept in custody by some strangers, it's only different.

Also, I was thinking about the option for people to disconnect if they are subdued. I think it would be fairly reasonable to, if subdued and cuffed (or otherwise restrained) then upon logging out your body would still remain in the world. From a role-playing standpoint it would simply be the character having passed out.

edit: Though there could be an issue with this. If your body remains on the server you were playing on, what if you try to join another server...? Does it simply not let you? If it does, then your kidnappers lose control of you. Maybe if you switch servers you'll simply die. That seems like a reasonable solution, albeit a harsh one.

LTL weapons and ammo is a good idea, so long as it doesn't affect the loot tables in such a way that it gets even harder to get a lethal weapon.

Another thing I was thinking about was the implementation of dying at e.g. -2k blood instead of 0 blood. If it seems too unintuitive then the game could instead be rebalanced to where reaching 2k blood is the same as the current 0 blood, only now at 2k blood or lower your character will pass out entirely and slowly die unless you're given aid, and 0 blood is instant death just as it is now.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Bogeyman

[DayZPvP.com 143]

Suggestion has been done many times before, but you did a nice job explaining it.

The surrender mechanic is in there so it should be doable. Has anyone played the LCPDFR mod for GTA4? They took the very limited police/arrest mechanics and pretty much made a new game out of it. You can make people put their hands up, frisk, arrest, write tickets, drive them to jail, call backup, answer radio calls, all kinds of cool stuff.

It is amazing what can be done by a good mod team.

[SkullFace45 (DayZ) 3]

Whats to just stop them from disconnecting? I mean perhaps a long range weapon which can stun/subdue them would be cool but if your talking about getting all up close to them, then they will just log surely?

[KWilt 157]

Oh. Handcuffs. Kinky.

Seriously, though, I've always liked the idea of LTL and subduing targets. Would like to take more hostages rather than just killing people. It's no fun when they stop squirming.

[Bogeyman 23]

Suggestion has been done many times before, but you did a nice job explaining it.

Thanks! ^^

I did try to search for "subdue", "handcuff" and such but I didn't come up with anything. I guess previous suggestions must use some other word.

Whats to just stop them from disconnecting? I mean perhaps a long range weapon which can stun/subdue them would be cool but if your talking about getting all up close to them, then they will just log surely?

Well sure, disconnecting would be a problem, but it's already a problem and needs to be dealt with. I'm sure there's a way to deal with it in a general sense, and that could fix the issue for subduing as well.

As has already been suggested there could be a timer started when you wish to log out, and you won't disconnect until that timer has expired. And let's say the timer isn't long enough to help in a sniper situation, where you shoot someone over a long distance and it takes too long for you to get there (safely) before he could log out. Well already as it is, if you log out when you're passed out or bleeding you'll be passed out for a rather long time once you log in again. That's not enough, so let's say if you log out when you're bleeding or passed out you won't be allowed to log in for another... say 5 minutes (again, pulled out of my ass) and during that time your body will remain in the world. If during that time your character is subdued and restrained, what I said in my previous post would come into play, namely your body would stay in the world indefinitely (or perhaps it could be 1 hour, and the cuffs or knots or duct tape would have to be maintained to reset that timer) even if you're not logged in. This would be a bit complicated though, because let's say you log out at a time when you're bleeding and then you're cuffed but you don't know it. Then the next day you log into another server, not knowing you're cuffed in another server, which would lead to your character dying (as I explained earlier as well). But maybe you just shouldn't log out when bleeding/passed out. If you do, you might die and it might not be in your control.

The system isn't perfect, but I'm pretty sure it could be worked out.

[SkullFace45 (DayZ) 3]

If it worked and was implemented correctly it would definately be an awesome mechanic to play with! I would like to see this in game and I suppose you are right about people DC/ing, it's so annoying when they do! xD

[Gaidoon 19]

No just no the second people start talking about subdueing and tying people up with rope it turns into a perverted arguement about rape and Canablism just look up the other 300 threads about subdueing and family mechanics.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Gaidoon

[Trolling R3bel 9]

I can just imagine a bandit handcuffing a girl and dragging her off into the woods if that gets implemented... >,>

[Bental 10]

Subduing people with rope - yes.

Working your way out of knots - no, a properly tied knot will not come undone. They should be cut free by winsome with a hunting knife and nothing else.

Passing out to die later - yeah that seems cool. It's already kind of like that. I've had people shoot me, pass out, they loot me and run off.

With requiring someone to cut your ropes, there would be no point to logging. You just fled your best chance of escape. Beyond that, it's the same logging bug we already have.

To bind someone, you need rope in your inventory, and they need to stay crouched still for the duration. Standing or moving will cancel it.

When bound, it's the same as being unarmed, except you can't loot.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[Gaidoon 19]

I can just imagine a bandit handcuffing a girl and dragging her off into the woods if that gets implemented... >,>

See what i mean I suggest burying this thread before the trolling starts

[Y0shi (DayZ) 9]

I really like the idea of bringing more dynamic events to DayZ - like you do with the handcuff story. The only thing is that there's a disconnect button... this fact and the fact it's just a game kill most of the great ideas and I guess this one too :/ Unfortunately most players just disconnect when they are forced to pull their weapons down... When there's a well driven punish system in the game this idea might work too.

[Gaidoon 19]

I really like the idea of bringing more dynamic events to DayZ - like you do with the handcuff story. The only thing is that there's a disconnect button... this fact and the fact it's just a game kill most of the great ideas and I guess this one too :/ Unfortunately most players just disconnect when they are forced to pull their weapons down... When there's a well driven punish system in the game this idea might work too.

I honestly can't tell if your trolling or you want a guy in game molesting you when your tied up.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Gaidoon

[YourStepDad 6]

Well, somebody who is bound could be spawned again bound.

They can choose if they wish to wait for help or die and start over.

I like the feature. As for the perversion controversy - what can the "pervert" do to you, other than teabag you? Some excessively inappropriate stuff can be reported, just like the rest of the rude behaviour, right?

I am all for it. The idea sounds amazing.

Although I am also for a chance/mechanic to untie yourself/bounce away bound.

Edited July 12, 2012 by YourStepDad

[_Profile_Shame 37]

Whats to just stop them from disconnecting? I mean perhaps a long range weapon which can stun/subdue them would be cool but if your talking about getting all up close to them, then they will just log surely?

there are people that will play along because its just part of the game.. people that would disconnect because of getting cuffed without seeing it through is tantamount to disconnecting when youre getting fired out imo

[Buzz (DayZ) 1]

Sorry I'm not into Rape i'm giving this idea thumbs down.

[_Profile_Shame 37]

censorship and art mix well, right?

[Bogeyman 23]

Thanks for the additional feedback guys (and gals?)!

No just no the second people start talking about subdueing and tying people up with rope it turns into a perverted arguement about rape and Canablism just look up the other 300 threads about subdueing and family mechanics.

I don't see why the discussion should end prematurely out of fear of a controversy. Let the discussion run it's due course, and if at any time it ends up being unmanageable then let's close the thread then.

Sorry I'm not into Rape i'm giving this idea thumbs down.

That's fine. However, here is my perspective on the matter:

For one, there's no way to rape someone in DayZ. That's not what I want added, even if "rape" might be what comes to mind for you when you think of handcuffs.

Secondly, this is a game in which you may be:

- Blown your brains out

- Betrayed and shot in the back for a can of beans

- Be left to bleed to death

- Be eaten alive by zombies (aka infected)

- Die of starvation or dehydration, a slow and gruesome death

- Break your legs and crawl for hours upon hours towards a hospital, your last hope, only to find you are doomed and nothing is there to help you.

- See and hear all your friends get shot down around you, knowing you're next

I fail to see how any of these would be fine, but rape is not. Even if you might argue that rape is more malevolent or terrifying than all these, I'm still not suggesting rape be added to the game. Why would handcuffs or other methods of restraining someone be condemned simply because you associate it with rape?

That is my perspective, and I have no additional interest in discussing rape when that is not what my suggestion is about.

I really like the idea of bringing more dynamic events to DayZ - like you do with the handcuff story. The only thing is that there's a disconnect button... this fact and the fact it's just a game kill most of the great ideas and I guess this one too :/ Unfortunately most players just disconnect when they are forced to pull their weapons down... When there's a well driven punish system in the game this idea might work too.

Yeah, without additional changes players disconnecting would be a problem. I think it's entirely possible to solve those issues however, both in a general sense for all situations of the game and for situations specific to being tied down. I'll briefly summarize my current ideas:

- [general] Log out timer (no instant disconnect)

- [specific] When tied down, body will remain on server regardless of online status (logging out equals to passing out from a role-playing perspective)

- [specific] When logging in to a new server after being tied down and disconnecting, you simply die (you have to log into the server in which your body resides, or automatically "respawn") NOTE: if you are tied down, you are no longer in control of your fate. Trying to circumvent the intended game mechanics won't work.

That should cover pretty much everything.

edit:

Just for the record, if I was ever tied down and dragged into a car, I would stay for the experience. Of course I would also hope they would let me go, but if it would turn out to be more like a snuff movie, them hacking my legs with a hatchet, and transfusing me to be able to keep going... wow, that would be intense, terrifying, and awesome to have such emotions in a game.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Bogeyman

[Timmymachine109 (DayZ) 235]

I really like this idea and the thought of spawning with bonds on if you dc/respawn with them on is a good idea to help stop it :) Could have some really harsh but funny situations come from this...like if someone killed a friend you could kneecap him (broken legs) and handcuff him and then drive him to the edge of the map and leave him! Harsh but it's what bandits deserve :P

Edited July 12, 2012 by Timmymachine109

[KWilt 157]

See what i mean I suggest burying this thread before the trolling starts

Or, we could act maturely and ignore those who want to turn this into the next 'Sexy dance in ToR for credits' idea, instead of letting the kiddies ruin a fairly good idea.

Anyways, as I said, I'd like to see subduing mechanics. Would definitely give me something to do other than kill people. Binding and gagging someone out in the middle of a field would be fun, using them as bait. And if not human bait, at least they can give the zeds something to chew on while I'm looting a chopper.

Also, to the people who are wondering about the DCing issue... I don't see what the problem is. If you DC while bound, you will still be bound. Same as if you DC while bleeding, if you DC while in shock, DC with any status effect. It will persist (or in the case of shock, get worse). After maybe an hour, they'll wiggle free of the restraints. Guess you shouldn't have run if you don't want to wait an hour before your hands come undone again.

Edited July 12, 2012 by KWilt

[clever 12]

I'm very much for an idea similar to this. Although I suggest it should mainly be focused on an a few animations, generally a "hands up" animation that takes a few seconds to get out of. Handcuffs would be great though, I think giving player's non-lethal options would definitely stem the tide of the whole killing on sight mentality slightly.

[wok 25]

We could use tazers or other weapons like a dart gun or a blowgun lol to immobilize another player for some time, that may stop the pvp paranoid killing.

[chisel 50]

Really? This would never work without some kind of time limit to the kidnapping event. The kidnapper would have to be forced in game to make a decision to kill or free the victim. This would have to be a very short lived event. Who wants to log into dayz to stare at their screen, while blindfolded and handcuffed? Some say they would play along for the experience. For how long? A day? A week? Not a chance. 5 minutes of in game sitting staring at a black screen (blindfolded) is an eternity for gamers. No gamer here or anywhere else is going to log into dayz daily to stare at their black blindfolded screen stuck in a chair handcuffed etc. with nothing to do in game. It would never work.

With no ultimatum system for the kidnapper, keeping another player indefinitely is a very bad idea and would NEVER work.