A realistic way to balance PvP

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

IDEA: I want to add ingame negatives such as shaking or a timed "sickness" after a player commits murder. This is to represent the mental strain and damage committing murder results in. This should decrease PvP by countering the loot potential with ingame effects, and thus create more friendly encounters as well as teamwork, similar to how reality works.

The negative effects will be reduced with the number of murders, until they are nearly non existent after 3-5 kills. This will represent the hardening of a survivor and make pure PVP possible, if harder than pure survival.

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

A more detailed overview of what I want and the thoughts behind such a mechanic.

Ok I'm just going to quote myself from a post I made over at another forums I'm apart of.

Some sort of Conscience meter would be nice, killing people could lower the bar and produce results similar to the shakes you can get from zombie injury? After maybe 30 mins it wears off, though maybe longer, possibly also some form of sickness to represent how bad you mental state is. Increasing the noise you make on movement could also be a good idea. Then reduce the effects after a number of murders until it does nothing after say 3-5 kills?

This would create some sort of motivation for not shooting on sight, which the game needs. We only work as a team in real-life because we will suffer both social and mental issues from things such as murder. even with a lack of any sort of social structure in place we would still be hesitant to shoot people on sight after an apoc due to the mental/emotional issues it would cause, some mechanic to simulate this ingame would be a welcome thing. The reduction in effects would be explained by the hardening of a survivor in the apoc environment, and it wouldn't be a path followed by many due to amount of issues you would have to deal with in order to get there. Plus its a good counter for loot gain in pvp, it'll stop/reduce players treating each other like mobile valuable loot piles.

Being sick and incredibly upset after a murder would be completely realistic and simulating that in the game makes sense, player characters being these emotionless beings is one particular area of game-play that makes it really hard to correctly role-play with. I like that you have to consider the weather and basic needs, it makes the game all the more real, but the current pvp situation flies completely in the face of that atmosphere.

Basically it ties your actions to both your character and yourself. In a zombie apoc lets face it most people aren't going to be murdering people straight away, and those people that do are going to feel the mental strain of doing so. Implementing this into the game will help offset the fun of murdering others while encouraging team work. By adding a mechanic to reduce this effect after a number of murders, pure pvp players can still continue to enjoy murdering as they please but it will be a harder path than survival. The reverse is true at the moment which seems completely different to reality as we know it.

Please do not post until you have both read the post and considered counters/negatives to what I have proposed. i'm not a "carebear" I would just like the game to become more removed from the death-match we currently have and turned into a more believable zombie survival game.

Thoughts?

[WhiteTigerShiro 25]

I'll just pull a quote from another post I commented on (since these "nerf PvP" posts are a dime-a-dozen, I don't see any reason to re-type the same reply to all of them):

"This game isn't about having a force-fed karma system. If you want to be a "good survivor", then it's purely for your own sake. The game does not, nor is it meant to, give a fuck about how "good or evil" you're being. So yeah, of course this means it's going to be easier to be a bandit. That's just life.

If you want a karma system that makes sure that both the good and bad options are equally rewarding, go play Mass Effect; go play an Elderscrolls game; go play Fallout*. Go play one of dozens of games out there with artificially-infused karma systems. Day Z is not about forced morality for the sake of arbitrary rewards attached to a given play-style. This game is about survival. If your lives are part of what's keeping the average life span down to only 30 minutes, then you aren't a good survivor."

In short, your idea isn't realistic as you want it to be.

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

So yeah, of course this means it's going to be easier to be a bandit. That's just life.

I hate to break it to you but it isn't easier to kill people than work with them in real-life. Murdering can and does have a plefora of negitive consequences, implementing these into the game makes sense.

It wouldn't really be a karma system anyway just a ingame effect from committing murder which lasts a specific time. You walk outside in the rain and you get cold - makes sense. You get hungry you have to eat - makes sense. You murder 20 people and you just get on with your day completely fine - huh?

Watch any zombie film or read any piece of fiction, each and every action made by characters in such stories show the devastating side of human conflict. They always effect those characters, because it would be inhuman for it not to. Even those murders that are committed out of necessity.

Any sort of connection to your character evaporates when your faced with ingame events that should have an effect on him/her and yet your character remains an emtionless being.

In short, your idea isn't realistic as you want it to be.

You didn't actually post a single sentence that explained why this wasn't realistic...

[Dr. Toros 8]

I'll just pull a quote from another post I commented on (since these "nerf PvP" posts are a dime-a-dozen' date=' I don't see any reason to re-type the same reply to all of them):

"This game isn't about having a force-fed karma system. If you want to be a "good survivor", then it's purely for your own sake. The game does not, nor is it meant to, give a fuck about how "good or evil" you're being. So yeah, of course this means it's going to be easier to be a bandit. That's just life.

If you want a karma system that makes sure that both the good and bad options are equally rewarding, go play Mass Effect; go play an Elderscrolls game; go play Fallout*. Go play one of dozens of games out there with artificially-infused karma systems. Day Z is not about forced morality for the sake of arbitrary rewards attached to a given play-style. This game is about survival. If your lives are part of what's keeping the average life span down to only 30 minutes, then you aren't a good survivor."

In short, your idea isn't realistic as you want it to be.

[/quote']

Shitheads like you are all about realism when it benefits them, and turn a blind eye to all the unrealistic crap.

In any societal breakdown, people group up, and work together to survive. Day z is a really, really rough alpha state game, where the only "realism" is injuries and full-looting. This is fine, but the "realism" is lost when it comes to cooperation.

Why the fuck does razorwire spawn everywhere when it does nothing to keep zombies out? It is only a pain for other players, and used primarily for closing off areas for server hopping. It adds nothing for people playing legitimately, and being able to build barriers that zombies couldn't cross but people could would add so much to the game.

Why the fuck can everyone do everything? Really, everyone knows how to rebuild a helicopter and give transfusions? Dumbfucks like you are part of the reason everyone is KOS, the other reason is you really don't need other people for anything. Rebuilding a vehicle is difficult solo, but a vehicle is also pretty useless if you're playing that way.

Why the fuck are snipers in coastal cities so common? From a realism perspective, there's no reason to go there once you have that quality of gear. You can find better loot inland, and are there just to shoot fresh spawns. Why this happens probably has something to do with the fact that combat d/cing is easy, server hopping for loot is easy, and once you're geared, there's really nothing to do.

Day z as being about "realism" is a fucking joke. D/cing, server hopping to reposition or refresh loot is incredibly common, broken legs from all sorts of shit, terrible zombie A.I., and metagaming and griefing are all over.

Now, the OP's idea is not the solution we need. We need more reasons to work together, not penalties for killing.

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

But would you not agree that penalties for killing actually makes sense?

I not sure why everyone wants to defend the ability to kill others without any consequence when its makes no sense given the setting/theme of the game.

[naizarak 41]

no. no artificial penalties for pvp. i'd personally prefer having military weapons toned down with ammo made scarce - make bandits work for their kills with civilian firearms and not ridiculous .50cal snipers with nvg's and ghillie suits

[Hawk24 94]

(Snip)

Shitheads like you are all about realism when it benefits them' date=' and turn a blind eye to all the unrealistic crap.

(Snip)

[/quote']

Where does he meantion ANYTHING about realism, you (quote)shithead(quote end)?

Get some reading comprehension and read his text again, bloody fool

I tried Ctrl+F on his quote about enforced karma systems and nowhere was any reference to realism to be found

You fail at reading, try again

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

no. no artificial penalties for pvp. i'd personally prefer having military weapons toned down with ammo made scarce - make bandits work for their kills with civilian firearms and not ridiculous .50cal snipers with nvg's and ghillie suits

@ naizarak I still find it fairly hard to get those items tbh, still not even had NVG's and most my characters have lasted about a week with numerous airfield trips. I'd say a lot of the heavily tooled up groups are a result of duping, though obviously not all of them.

Any reasoning behind why you don't like penalties? I'm attempting to get at the reasoning behind such thoughts, instead of just opinions without anything to back them up.

@hawk both the writer and the guy who replied seem to think that post contained something about realism, can't actually see anything about it,, apart from the last sentence.

[jayzz911 0]

Another one of these? Calling your thread a realistic way to balance pvp and suggesting a handicap for whoever kills somebody is misleading to say the least. The fact of the matter is that this isn't a game that will screw you for killing another player, nor is it supposed to be. Sick of getting shot by everyone you meet? play the game with some friends, it's nice to have someone you can rely on during a zombie apocalypse. This isn't a chat service aimed at making new friends it's a hard game aimed at your own personal survival and maybe that of your group if that isn't what your looking for you might be at the wrong adress.

Btw: I felt bad the first time i shot another survivor, now however i do not.

[Hawk24 94]

create more friendly encounters as well as teamwork,

Why is it that some people in this forum have their nr.1 gameplay goal in DayZ set to "cooperate with a random stranger that you just met"

I just don't get it

If you want teamwork get a clan or some buddies on Teamspeak and play with them

It's what I do, why would I feel the urge to go up to a random stranger and be Best Friends Forever with him?

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

Please can you read the post before commenting?

I would like simply laid out counters to this idea not an unexplained personal opinion on the matter.

If you had read the post you would know the effects would not "screw you over" they would be minor short term effects for committing murder, such as shaking or a limited noise increase. These effects would be far less of a penalty than the bandit skin that was implemented earlier in the Alpha.

I also didn't post this because of just my own experiences, I personally play with a group of 6-7 people. This isn't out of self interest because I play alone, because I don't. Its something I chose to get opinions on after numerous threads about the game turning into a deathmatch. It was also because I didn't feel killing had anywhere near the same consideration the weather or eating has which makes little sense.

[PromisePanda 0]

In a world where everyone is already either dead or dying, why would you be sick after murdering? There are too many factors to conclude that after murdering someone, the murderer is guaranteed to be upset in the stomach. Serial killers exist, they are sociopaths to the fullest feeling no remorse. You can't assume that your avatar doesn't have any psychological issues, and you can't assume he hasn't already killed once before. There is no back story explaining the breakout just happening. For all you know there have been zombies for the last five to ten years, and your avatar has been struggling to survive having to kill once before. My point is that he could definitely be desensitized to the horrors of taking a life, and thus PvP should stay the way it is. People are selfish creatures, for example you want something in this game to go your way and I don't. A decent way to promote team work should be based upon a skill set. What if when you started you were to pick a profession like mechanic, gun repair, medic, ect... That would promote teamwork, whilst still allowing others to kill and maim who they please.

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

Fair point, this could be years into the infection and each character has been through hell and back, with each survivor having no problem committing murder. Given that we know nothing of each characters past it seem illogical for it to have any bearing on the game mechanics though, he could have been living on the high seas peacefully for years for instance ;) or this is the first day of the infection for our character.

While we cant assume he has no issues we can't assume he has any, it would be more plausible that any new character is subject to the same emotional damage that a regular human is. Sociopaths and the like are a extreme minority among our populations, making them the norm makes little to no sense.

kill and maim who they please

You post was substantially better than the others thus far but could explain why this should be the norm when it flies in the face of how humans actually act?

[Shroom 12]

IDEA: I want to add ingame negatives such as shaking or a timed "sickness" after a player commits murder. This is to represent the mental strain and damage committing murder results in. This should decrease PvP by countering the loot potential with ingame effects' date=' and thus create more friendly encounters as well as teamwork, similar to how reality works.

The negative effects will be reduced with the number of murders, until they are nearly non existent after 3-5 kills. This will represent the hardening of a survivor and make pure PVP possible, if harder than pure survival.

[/quote']

The problem with ideas like this is it still doesn't solve anything. If someone is defending themselves from an attacker, they aren't going to be caught up in the emotional indignity of having just ended a life, because it was necessary for survival. In addition to this, not every human is going to feel remorse or be physically distraught in such a manner.

It's unrealistic and has the same problem as the bandit skins - penalizes anyone who kills someone, not just those who are the aggressors.

[ewokz (DayZ) 0]

The problem with ideas like this is it still doesn't solve anything. If someone is defending themselves from an attacker, they aren't going to be caught up in the emotional indignity of having just ended a life, because it was necessary for survival. In addition to this, not every human is going to feel remorse or be physically distraught in such a manner.

Even defending yourself in real-life such as killing in self defence produces substantial mental strain, from making people throw-up to depression to shaking etc. All humans that have committed their first murder generally feel this, it would be suprising for people not to. Focusing on surviving isn't going to entirely remove the effects that having to kill another human being will have on person.

It's unrealistic and has the same problem as the bandit skins - penalizes anyone who kills someone, not just those who are the aggressors

Pretty much like real-life then, plus I'd point out that the aggressor is generally going to be the killer unless they are utterly inept. The penalties themselves offer no real long term effects, they just make people consider the worth of killing. Currently there is no real negative to murdering, which leaves on the positives (ie. excitement and loot).

[wolfstriked 143]

mAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE to survive.make it so that when you see other players you will subconsciously be drawn to them.;) Make it so that grouping is the way to survive.

[Julia_Shafer 18]

I just hate the whole anti PVP pro PVP bull shit. You want it realistic I get that, and those morons who dont understand the effects of murder keep on talking. This issue wont be resolved by itself. Rocket said this was a social experiment, yet its the worst ive ever seen. You cant keep immature 16 year olds from PKing without adding something to make it harder for them to do anything. I for sure don't know how it feels to murder, but ask someone who server in Afghanistan or Iraq. Im pretty sure they could set the story strait. Thats why so many come back with PTSD, and hell that's why drone pilots develop PTSD. So ya keep taking 16 year olds, say no to progress in the game, your just in the end killing the game by your goal to kill as many as you can. Because of your asshole intentions I almost am sick of the game. Yes add a stress system, and those who support PVP should research the effects of murder a bit futher. If this is intended to be a zombie survival simulation, then everything to the t needs to be realistic, no half assing.

[WhiteTigerShiro 25]

Shitheads like you are all about realism when it benefits them' date=' and turn a blind eye to all the unrealistic crap.

[/quote']

OH NO! someone on the interweb called me a shithead! How ever shall I sleep at night? I'm gonna have to rush to my therapist right away or I'll just never get over this!

In any societal breakdown, people group up, and work together to survive.

I guess that's why people often take to the streets looting the instant any form of chaos breaks out? And that's just over temporary, short-term events. Imagine how much worse it gets for something as long-term as a zombie outbreak. When it comes down to a life-or-death situation, many people would sooner shoot a stranger than to risk getting shot by said stranger; especially if you've survived long enough as the people in Day Z have to know that that kind of thing is happening all the time.

Dumbfucks like you are part of the reason everyone is KOS, the other reason is you really don't need other people for anything. Rebuilding a vehicle is difficult solo, but a vehicle is also pretty useless if you're playing that way.

So wait... one sentence you're saying that there's no need for other people for anything, then in the very next sentence you're saying that a vehicle is difficult to repair solo, and kinda useless for lone wolfs anyway. Huh.... seems you just answered your own question. This game has plenty of incentive to group-up with other people, just that it's easier to whine about the PvP than it is to head to the Survivor's HQ and try to team-up with someone.

Now, the OP's idea is not the solution we need. We need more reasons to work together, not penalties for killing.

There's already plenty of incentive to work together, you just prefer to ignore it.

[Dreamseller 0]

There shouldn't have to be an in-game morality system. You should feel bad enough in real life when you kill another character, causing others to lose days, maybe even weeks of play time.

The thing is, people don't care about strangers. It's the way humans are supposed to be. 10,000 die in some drought in Africa? No sweat. Your hamster dies and you're sad all week. Killing some random person in a Zombie Apocalypse would be no different. There is no negative to killing them, unless you are currently solo.

Pro's:

No chance of them killing you

They won't team up just to back-stab you

You get their stuff

Cons:

It takes a couple of bullets

Even with an artificial system in place like the one you're suggesting, people will still kill others. Either for fun, loot or because they are afraid of being killed themselves. Also, what happens if someone engages you, you kill them and get the "killer sickness" then along comes some other bandit who attacks you? You'll stand no chance with your aim being all over the place and making more noise with every step. You're at a disadvantage defending yourself against attackers who came after you.

[CHOSENMARINE 43]

Sounds like a sour idea. Can't really explain why, but I don't like it.

[Venzire 76]

PvP IS FINE!

[aversionfx 63]

This is a bad idea, period. Creating a "hard" punishment for PVP is not the way to handle a problem that doesn't exist. PVP is not the problem: the problem is players being able to instantly log out to avoid being killed, as well as change servers to move position to gain an advantage in the original fight.

Not to mention, every single "realistic idea to stop PVP!" is completely stupid. Every single one of them revolves around crippling murderers for next to no reason. Psychological distress? Seriously? Every one of these threads is created by some kid who is mad because this isn't a regular shooter. You can't win every battle, and wanting to punish murderers is just belly aching. Learn to play, learn to accept death.

[Stoop_Kid 2]

Ever heard of a sociopath? Narcissistic personality? Borderline Personality Disorder?

All of those psychological disorders manifest in one primary way: inability to empathize with others. These types of personalities would make murder feel as normal as breathing, and are only noticed and treated when ones behavior falls outside of the societal conception of the "norm".

Hate to break it to you, but DayZ is about NOT having any of those norms. Regardless, why not give me force powers and adjust their cost based on how dark or light side I am? You're already shoving a shoddy morality system down my throat, might as well beat me over the head that this is a fantasy game.

tl;dr please post in the 4 other "baawwwwwwwwww PvP is too hard" threads that suggest the EXACT same fix you're proposing here.

[jkingsbury6@hotmail.com 1]

Here's another possible solution to reduce DMing on the servers:

Maybe Bandit bullets should only work on a player that has better equipment than they do. So no more senseless killings by a fully fed bandit with more food and a better gun than their victim. Also the one they wrongly tried to kill would be able to go after them as they would have the lesser equipment (forcing bandits to think twice about killing for lulz). People would then only bandit in roleplaying appropriate situations. As it is with killing for vehicles make anyone killable within a certain range of a vehicle or something. Perhaps each item would have a point value.

I understand this solution is less realistic than a "real" Romeroesque zombie apoc (where everyone could do what they wanted). It is still more realistic IMHO than people playing dm within one.

I'm not saying eliminate PvP altogether just the part of it that is unrealistic in a ZA.

It IS unrealistic especially in a ZA to kill for no reason. Make a bunch of noise and attract possible zombies for a laugh? highly doubtful.. instead of common.

Only a murderer kills for the joy of killing.. Real bandits kill for loot.

Currently i feel that this game is a more of a DeathMatch with zombies than a Zombie apoc sim/mod.

I still love the game just think it could be even better.