M4 is Rediculous

[RZ0R 60]

900RPM is rediculous. 60rnd magazines and so little recoil makes it feel like I'm cheating. Proper easy mode.

Bring on the nerf.

 

[DefectiveWater 491]

750 RPM and less damage would be how I would do it.

In my opinion 2 AKM shots should be equal or slightly less damage compared to 3 M4 shots.

If AKM is: 600 RPM * 90 Damage = 54000 Damage per minute
Then M4 should have approximately the same DPM if you ask me.
M4 -- 750 RPM * x = 54000, so damage ends up being 72.

So around 72 damage, or at most I would give it 80.

If 72-80 damage or so get's pushed, I would do this*:
M4 should be easier to control, lower damage, higher ROF, better attachments
AKM should be harder to control, more random, higher damage, lower ROF, worse attachments

But here's the issue... DayZ CAN'T do 750 RPM. So for the time being I would prefer they make it 600 RPM until they fix it (just RPM change, no need to touch stats), if they won't fix it then they should nerf the damage even more, 900 RPM -> 60-70 damage and follow my 72-80 damage proposal*.

Edited January 2, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Homeschooliazon 87]

I think it should be authentic as possible and it is pretty authentic to me. The M4s downside is that I spray the whole mag empty within a milisecond next to the guy.

[DefectiveWater 491]

10 hours ago, Homeschooliazon said:

I think it should be authentic as possible and it is pretty authentic to me. The M4s downside is that I spray the whole mag empty within a milisecond next to the guy.

Nothing authentic when it shoots at 900 RPM.
And don't tell me that google says 700-950 rpm or whatever, you know damn well that bog standard military issued m4 doesn't shoot at 900+ RPM.

M4 in other games:
Arma apparently 667 or so(bad engine?).
Insurgency has M4 shooting at 740 RPM.
Rainbow 6 Siege at 750 RPM.
Tarkov at 800 RPM.
Battlefield at 800 RPM.
CODMW at 857 RPM (AK47 shoots at 561 RPM in CODMW which is kinda low, so not the most accurate numbers in CODMW).

The only game that comes close to 900 RPM is CODMW at 857 RPM... every other game has it at 740-800.

It's a fast gun, but not 900 RPM kinda fast.

When it comes to recoil, it's noticeable that at the beginning of a spray his muzzle kicks up, but once the initial kick happens, he can easily control it.
He does have a front foregrip which is probably helping with the recoil control a bit.
Not saying that average person can control it, but having controllable recoil in DayZ seems reasonable.

Edited January 2, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[lay-4bd59d3ef91bba9a 5]

DayZ as a whole is easy mode ever since they botched the gunplay in .63, implied it was a placeholder yet here we are, people can dropshot, roll while very accurately hipfring. It's Call of DayZ!

[DefectiveWater 491]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:14 PM, lay-4bd59d3ef91bba9a said:

DayZ as a whole is easy mode ever since they botched the gunplay in .63

While I do agree that the current iteration of gunplay isn't exactly what one would expect from a realistic/authentic game (or at least one that tries to be that...) + the movement physics aren't all that great either (no inertia, leaning while sprinting/running, zig zagging, catapult effect/auto jump...)
I do have to point out that my issue isn't with recoil amount on guns, it's everything besides that... + all the issues you mentioned

Easiest way to explain would be: look at how EFT has done gun handling/sway/recoil feel, they did an amazing job on that and it would be amazing if DayZ had that (or at least DayZ 2).

Edited January 5, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[General Zod 1114]

Movement physics are so bad that when you run out of a train cargo carriage you hoover in the air for couple seconds like it's looney tunes where you don't start to fall until you look down. 

[Derleth 1352]

2 hours ago, General Zod said:

Movement physics are so bad that when you run out of a train cargo carriage you hoover in the air for couple seconds like it's looney tunes where you don't start to fall until you look down. 

That's a bug that happens when you bump into something else on your way down, like the train carriage beside the one you ran out of. It's been around for several updates, I think it came as early as when jumping was implemented in 0.63. It's been reported numerous times on the feedback tracker, so yeah I suppose it's a physics engine thing or it should have been fixed by now.

2 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

While I do agree that the current iteration of gunplay isn't exactly what one would expect from a realistic/authentic game (or at least one that tries to be that...) + the movement physics aren't all that great either (no inertia, leaning while sprinting/running, zig zagging, catapult effect/auto jump...)
I do have to point out that my issue isn't with recoil amount on guns, it's everything besides that... + all the issues you mentioned

Easiest way to explain to be: look at how EFT has done gun handling/sway/recoil feel, they did an amazing job on that and it would be amazing if DayZ had that (or at least DayZ 2).

I've been playing with the Mod "LegacyGunplay" since it was published, it basically reverts gunplay back to the way it was before 0.63. Legacy crosshair, everything is slower, you can't sprint while leaning, ADS is slower and you are forced to walk when aiming, sway is reworked AND you have weapon inertia. Also weapons move when you move, no magic muscle gyro giving perfect aim while moving. Great mod, although fans of the arcadey gunplay hate it. I won't play on servers without it (or its cousin sGunplay).

Edited January 3, 2022 by Derleth

[DefectiveWater 491]

23 minutes ago, Derleth said:

I've been playing with the Mod "LegacyGunplay" since it was published, it basically reverts gunplay back to the way it was before 0.63. Legacy crosshair, everything is slower, you can't sprint while leaning, ADS is slower and you are forced to walk when aiming, sway is reworked AND you have weapon inertia. Also weapons move when you move, no magic muscle gyro giving perfect aim while moving. Great mod, although fans of the arcadey gunplay hate it. I won't play on servers without it (or its cousin sGunplay).

I've tried something like that, but it's a bit too floaty in my opinion when turning around, but it's closer to what DayZ should be, just dialed down a bit with the "floaty" feel.

Great mod overall, I was really impressed when I saw it.

Edited January 3, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[RZ0R 60]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:05 AM, Homeschooliazon said:

I think it should be authentic as possible and it is pretty authentic to me. The M4s downside is that I spray the whole mag empty within a milisecond next to the guy.

If the aim of the game is authenticity over balance then I would like my character to have to brush his teeth every day and to use the toilet every 8 hours too.

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

15 hours ago, RZ0R said:

If the aim of the game is authenticity over balance then I would like my character to have to brush his teeth every day and to use the toilet every 8 hours too.

LOL.  I have to agree, there are literally no funnier words on this forum about this game than "authenticity over balance".  Physics in this game have almost always defied logic.

Edited January 5, 2022 by THEGordonFreeman

[DefectiveWater 491]

1 hour ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

there are literally no funnier words on this forum about this game than "authenticity over balance". 

They just have a different vision of this game, but I think there is a fine line where both sides could be satisfied, and that's the balance part that you and plenty others mention.

Gun damage is overall way too high if you ask me, FAMAS, AUG and M16 dealing 107 damage is just questionable to me.
Sure, keep them one shot uncon, but remove their ability to one shot kill unarmored targets.

Nerf 5.56 and 7.62x39 (not to the old values where both had 50-55 damage, but somewhere along 70-80 damage), nerf Pristine stab vest health protection so they don't save you from x54mmr and .308.
If CR527 and Scout end up being too weak (I don't think they will, they'll still easily uncon even VS stab vests), increase their spawns. It's easier to find mosins and tundras than those 2. At least from my experience. It should be the other way around.

Edited January 5, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Homeschooliazon 87]

On 1/1/2022 at 10:05 PM, DefectiveWater said:

750 RPM and less damage would be how I would do it.

In my opinion 2 AKM shots should be equal or slightly less damage compared to 3 M4 shots.

If AKM is: 600 RPM * 90 Damage = 54000 Damage per minute
Then M4 should have approximately the same DPM if you ask me.
M4 -- 750 RPM * x = 54000, so damage ends up being 72. 

So around 72 damage, or at most I would give it 80.

If 72-80 damage or so get's pushed, I would do this*:
M4 should be easier to control, lower damage, higher ROF, better attachments
AKM should be harder to control, more random, higher damage, lower ROF, worse attachments

But here's the issue... DayZ CAN'T do 750 RPM. So for the time being I would prefer they make it 600 RPM until they fix it (just RPM change, no need to touch stats), if they won't fix it then they should nerf the damage even more, 900 RPM -> 60-70 damage and follow my 72-80 damage proposal*.

I don't agree that weapons should be balanced by DPM. In this game it does not matter how ofen you can shoot someone per minute.

I am the authenticity lover. My suggestion is 750 rpm and 90 damage for M4 because 750 seems to a common firerate for m4 (I read that somewhere idk) and 900 seems to be the upper limit. Also 90 damage seems authentic because it is not impossible to survive and m4 bullet but very unlikely. And then extreme bleeding please.

 

[DefectiveWater 491]

1 hour ago, Homeschooliazon said:

Also 90 damage seems authentic because it is not impossible to survive and m4 bullet but very unlikely.

So then what do you do about M16 and the others?

They deal 107 damage which means guaranteed OHK in close range, is it really balanced if 5.56 out of full auto guns does that? 107 damage?
In my opinion none full/burst/semi-auto 5.56 guns should one shot... heck even bolt action 5.56 shouldn't.

Edited January 6, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Homeschooliazon 87]

is it really balanced if 5.56 out of full auto guns does that? 107 damage?

Ofcourse that is monstrously imbalanced, but DayZ is not the type of game that needs balance. Yes CS:GO does, but balancing things too much hurts DayZ.

So then what do you do about M16 and the others?

Give them less/more damage compared to the M4 by how much longer/shorter the barrel is and wether or not they have automatic fire (because the gas from the shot goes into a pipe that triggers the next shot, so less gaspower goes into propelling the bullet).

Thats authentic. If the really long barrel of the M16 increases the bullet speed by a lot then i am fine with 100+ damage.

The FAMAS 107 damage buff really bothered me because it is not AuThEnTiC at all, it was probably done so that the gun holds up against other asssault rifles with its small magazine and lack of scopes and suppressors, realistically it should do less damage than any other 5.56 gun in the game.

Its not that big of a deal wether a gun insta kills or drops uncon instantly instead anyway, and if it is to you you can always just go find a better gun in the game. What bothers me is unnecessary and inauthentic balancing for the sake of pvp gameplay.

[DefectiveWater 491]

34 minutes ago, Homeschooliazon said:

realistically it should do less damage than any other 5.56 gun in the game.

How so? It has higher muzzle velocity than M4 according to Google/Wikipedia. Maybe weaker than M16 and AUG, but not weaker than M4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAMAS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

34 minutes ago, Homeschooliazon said:

Its not that big of a deal wether a gun insta kills or drops uncon instantly instead anyway

It actually is, the whole reason this uncon happened (apparently) was because players complained about instant deaths in DayZ.
Which to be honest is unrealistic, the only time IRL you would die instantly is if your head got shot off, everything else you are alive and on the ground for at least a second or two.
No instant black screens (except headshots), should be more like a fade into black + fade out volume and make it muffled and echo-y.

I would just make them not one shot and then scale down the M4 to the appropriate level compared to the M16, so there is still the same gap.
One shot uncon is fine. Gives player's a chance to not be lethal and take hostages.

34 minutes ago, Homeschooliazon said:

but DayZ is not the type of game that needs balance.

Why not?
They already made everything made out of cheap plastic so guns last for like 2 mags at most...

Edited January 6, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Homeschooliazon 87]

1 hour ago, DefectiveWater said:

How so? It has higher muzzle velocity than M4 according to Google/Wikipedia

Ok I was wrong then. I asumed it had lower because it is shorter.

1 hour ago, DefectiveWater said:

 

It actually is, the whole reason this uncon happened (apparently) was because players complained about instant deaths in DayZ.

That is true, I mean that a gun knocking out instead of killing is not a huge downgrade since a ko player is as good as dead anyway if you want to kill him. It is nice to be able to take hostages though.

And by saying DayZ doesnt need balance i mean: weapons should not be designed to have fair fights only or so that your favorite gun is just as viable as others. Guns should be authentic and guns should have real life attributes (size,damage,accuracy,bullet speed, rpm)

 

[General Zod 1114]

If you want realism and taking hostage we should add non lethal ranged weapons (there was a thread about it)

Also realistically, in dayz scenario as in the lack of advanced medical care scenario, most of gunshots to the body would be lethal. Not immediately but if you got shot in the stomach or a chest with either 5.56 or 5.45 barring you being very lucky and the bullet missing every vital organ, even if you survived the shot itself the damage to the organs would kill you in short order. If you survived, you'd need stitches and weeks of taking it easy and taking antibiotics to let the wound fully heal and not get infected. 

In real life if the shot turned out to be non lethal and the shooter wouldn't follow up, your survival instinct would make you try your hardest to survive. In dayz if the results of getting shot would require too much work to get back on your feet you'd simply either shoot yourself in the head or log out when unconscious and start over. 

Long story short, most people who shoot you in this game do this to kill you not to take your hostage, which means you might balance the individual weapon and bullet damage to make it more realistic but at the end of the day if you want to encourage non lethal encounters instead of making bullets wound instead of killing, add non lethal weapons. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by General Zod

[DefectiveWater 491]

40 minutes ago, General Zod said:

most people who shoot you in this game do this to kill you not to take your hostage

Everything about gunshot wounds you said is correct and I agree, but at the end of the day you gotta remember this is a game.
There are limits to which extent medical aspect of the gunshot wound can be implemented.

Nerfing the damage of 5.56 and 7.62 guns to be just below OHK value won't change most encounters tbh (you'll probably end up dead anyway), but it's utter nonsense to me that they wanted to reduce OHKs happening, and then made AUTOMATIC rifles deal over 100 damage.

40 minutes ago, General Zod said:

we should add non lethal ranged weapons (there was a thread about it)

100% Agreed.

1 hour ago, Homeschooliazon said:

And by saying DayZ doesnt need balance i mean: weapons should not be designed to have fair fights only or so that your favorite gun is just as viable as others. Guns should be authentic and guns should have real life attributes (size,damage,accuracy,bullet speed, rpm)

I agree, but what if M16 deals 95-99.9 damage, makes you uncon, gives you a bleed, and you get a slim chance to survive (probably gonna end up finished while you are uncon, but still).
M16 will still be plenty powerful at 95-99.9 damage, all the while offering the chance not to kill the guy.
And since M16 is now not OHK, make M4 do even less, like 85-95 damage. You'll still go uncon from a single shot by M4, and you will still probably get killed in the end.

Devs wanted to give players a second chance, right? There are no second chances if the gun does 107 damage.
Heck... they even stopped the zeds from beating you to death. They only make you uncon.
Even (pristine) stab vest stops you from dying to a .308/x54mmR... STAB vest. Cause they wanted to give players a second chance.

1 hour ago, Homeschooliazon said:

Ok I was wrong then. I asumed it had lower because it is shorter.

Beauty of bullpup design, shorter rifle, longer barrel.

Edited January 6, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

Balancing is not realistic. Also, balancing is bad for DayZ. Ballistics should be imbalanced. In my opinion, damage numbers are too high for 5.45, 5.56 and too low for 7.62x51 and 7.62x54mmR.

What this game needs is damage according to limb and actual vitals that function like the multiplier for headshots. Then we can discuss damage numbers.

Edited January 15, 2022 by EzyStriderPS4

[Xeonmeister 18]

Did it bother anyone when it was 600 rpm? It was one of the best, arguably the best gun in the game. And now it suddenly got a 50% damage output buff and it ridiculus. The famas is fine at 900rpm because it only has 25 rounds in a mag so you have to choose the moment carefully when you want to spray that. Being able to spray a 60 round mag at 900 rpm might be a normal thing in other shooter games but here it s just broken.
Also i dont get why people say it s not realistic to nerf it back to 600. This is not a simulator, it's a survival game which should be balanced. You could just give people tanks and let them destroy an entire server and not consider nerfing it because it s realistic. This is stupid. To make the game enjoyable you need to balance its features.

[DefectiveWater 491]

27 minutes ago, Xeonmeister said:

Did it bother anyone when it was 600 rpm?

Yes, me.

But it also bothers me that now it's at 900 RPM.

[Homeschooliazon 87]

5 hours ago, Xeonmeister said:

You could just give people tanks and let them destroy an entire server and not consider nerfing it because it s realistic. This is stupid. To make the game enjoyable you need to balance its features.

This would be really cool, just like the really cool fast firing M4, I do agree that it should fire maybe 15% slower for better realism, not balance.

Tanks would be epic, the thing is one RPG blast from some hobo with a RPG and the turret or tracks might be irrepairably destroyed, maybe the people inside killed, so I see no problem with tanks.

Also you would have to haul all the ammo and fuel to the tank in the first place which would balance it out a bit.

Even being attacked by a tank would be cool, why say no to epic toys to play with when they are fun and realistic? It's not like every day you have an ak vs m4 duel, and you loose because the m4 is 30% oder hopefully in the future 15% faster?

Edited January 15, 2022 by Homeschooliazon

[Homeschooliazon 87]

Ever since this debate started I have not seen a single M4 in-game.

[General Zod 1114]

The last thing this game needs is tanks. Also given how bad vehicles work in dayz I'd say a tank would classify as a weapon of mass destruction.

56 minutes ago, Homeschooliazon said:

Ever since this debate started I have not seen a single M4 in-game.

I got 3 stashed in barrels in some undisclosed locations, 60 round mags included.