Decrease desire to KOS constantly?

[Jayuk1983 5]

Edit: The title was “incentivise RP interactions” but I think that was slightly misleading so I’ve changed it. 

I don’t think this topic has been discussed elsewhere but apologies if so.

Over on Reddit I’ve seen people discussing the problem with KOS in the game. Most agree that it’s part of the game and what makes interactions so tense, but the problem is, nobody RPs on official servers (Edit: not RPing isn’t a problem in and of itself; but not using gameplay mechanics which are unique to DayZ is a problem). Very few people interact, much less so tie up, gag, torture other people, etc. And yet this is something which makes DayZ unique.
So how do the devs incentivise the RP interactions (Edit: or at least decrease the desire to always KOS)? Any thoughts would be great.

One idea that crossed my mind was that maybe KOS is de-incentivised. In real life, the mental toll a person would experience from killing another person would be immense, but this mental and moral pressure can’t be replicated in a game (and shouldn’t be for ethical reasons). But something else can be used to represent the toll (similarly to how kuru is represented in DayZ with shakes and maniacal chuckles (you wouldn’t actually do that if you ate another person, but it works to represent the toll)). 

So what about if every time you killed another player you couldn’t eat for a while? Or maybe you were even sick after the first kill. After each kill it “gets easier”.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. And hopefully it would make people think a second longer before killing every time. 

Other ideas could include: 

- not being able to pull the trigger,
- lower level of accuracy directly after a kill (to represent the uncertainty)…

These ideas don’t only add a de-incentive to KOS but also an RPG element given that you would get better at shooting the more you did it… and better at killing 😅

Edited November 29, 2021 by Jayuk1983
Additional thoughts (reasons for edit explained in body for clarity)

[DefectiveWater 539]

Why though?

Forcing RP ain't a good way about it.

[Jayuk1983 5]

I’m not saying to force RP. I thought the suggestions seemed quite realistic and organic.

Edit: I’ve edited my OP for clarity. Defective Water’s response was valid and I don’t want it to look like their reply made no sense so I’ve clarified where I edited so nobody thinks they’re being obtuse.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Jayuk1983

[DefectiveWater 539]

25 minutes ago, Jayuk1983 said:

I’m not saying to force RP. I thought the suggestions seemed quite realistic and organic

But not everyone would hesitate to kill someone IRL. There's a lot of wicked people in the world, just take a look at America and their gun violence issues

I think better way about it would be to make ammo much much much more rare. So that instead of having like 80 Mosin shots after looting one MB you have like... 5 or less.
If you had like 2 shots in your Mosin, you will probably hesitate to shoot.

EDIT: also the hit indicators will give a chance for the other player to shoot back, maybe this will make people hesitate sometimes.

Edited November 29, 2021 by DefectiveWater

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

Adding a game mechanic for this is not a great idea. This is a game where people should be allowed to play however they want. This would change that. 

[Jayuk1983 5]

The vast majority of people hesitate to shoot first, unless they have sociopathic tendencies or they’re faced with extreme peril. Although I acknowledge a video game would never be able to replicate this feeling completely. If I were making the game, this would be something I’d implement, but I can understand those who don’t agree. Thanks for engaging!

[Jayuk1983 5]

3 minutes ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

Adding a game mechanic for this is not a great idea. This is a game where people should be allowed to play however they want. This would change that. 

Fair enough. Though I believe this isn’t changing the ability to “play how you want”; it’s just implementing a change. You also get sick after eating rotten food - that doesn’t stop people playing how they want. But I understand your overall point - in its current form there’s a certain equality 

[DefectiveWater 539]

Quote

After each kill it “gets easier”.

Also... imagine the snowball effect once bandits start killing everyone, and you as a freshie can't pull a trigger.
Bandits gonna keep on banditing.

[Jayuk1983 5]

23 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

Also... imagine the snowball effect once bandits start killing everyone, and you as a freshie can't pull a trigger.
Bandits gonna keep on banditing.

True. This did cross my mind.

I still feel a way of simulating the difficulty of killing someone would be a nice touch and might add to more knocking out, tying up, etc. Maybe my solution isn’t perfect though! 🙂

[nemorus 265]

Ridiculous suggestions. Putting everyone in the same shoes through and through. And in the name of "RP" - completely artificial nonsense.

When you kill once it doesn't matter anymore - things are different then. You can lament all you want - world don't care either way. You can cry as well... World does not promised anything. In reality life comes from death and this game use that rule as well. You die and start over - again and again. Until you learn how to survive in a world bigger than you.

[Jayuk1983 5]

18 minutes ago, nemorus said:

Ridiculous suggestions. Putting everyone in the same shoes through and through. And in the name of "RP" - completely artificial nonsense.

When you kill once it doesn't matter anymore - things are different then. You can lament all you want - world don't care either way. You can cry as well... World does not promised anything. In reality life comes from death and this game use that rule as well. You die and start over - again and again. Until you learn how to survive in a world bigger than you.

You know using words like “nonsense” and “ridiculous” logically don’t make refutations stronger (or weaker), right? Stick to Twitter if that’s the kind of conversation you want (this also, is a bad argument, but demonstrates the fallacy). 

[DefectiveWater 539]

33 minutes ago, Jayuk1983 said:

True. This did cross my mind.

I still feel a way of simulating the difficulty of killing someone would be a nice touch and might add to more knocking out, tying up, etc. Maybe my solution isn’t perfect though! 🙂

I'm not against decreasing KOS though, but I don't think it should be done in such a way where game limits your ability to make decisions. Decision making should be up to a player, but resources are up to the game.

[Jayuk1983 5]

4 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

I'm not against decreasing KOS though, but I don't think it should be done in such a way where game limits your ability to make decisions. Decision making should be up to a player, but resources are up to the game.

This is a good way of putting it. Thanks

[nemorus 265]

Learn to accept reality. That's all i'm saying.

[William Sternritter 449]

When I'm roleplaying a murdering bandit, my RP is to kill my victims 😉 

No one is stopping you from roleplaying what you want and if you want mandatory roleplay from everyone you can go ahead and play on one of the community servers which mandate it. I personally love the element that I can decide on the spot and according to situation. Just because I don't want to shoot everyone I meet that does not mean, I won't fire unless we have a five minute conversation. I wish that rather instead of mandating roleplay or whatever, people would actually think about the situation they are in and how they approach it. That is what creates that organic and unique experience and not mandating a certain type of gameplay. 

 

[Jayuk1983 5]

1 hour ago, William Sternritter said:

When I'm roleplaying a murdering bandit, my RP is to kill my victims 😉 

No one is stopping you from roleplaying what you want and if you want mandatory roleplay from everyone you can go ahead and play on one of the community servers which mandate it. I personally love the element that I can decide on the spot and according to situation. Just because I don't want to shoot everyone I meet that does not mean, I won't fire unless we have a five minute conversation. I wish that rather instead of mandating roleplay or whatever, people would actually think about the situation they are in and how they approach it. That is what creates that organic and unique experience and not mandating a certain type of gameplay. 

 

To be fair I’m not talking about mandating roleplay. It’s a gameplay suggestion. No different to how eating rotten food makes you sick. Or you need a full NBC suit to prevent you from getting ill in toxic zones. Or how a reduction in stamina creates more weapon sway. If people don’t like the idea, that’s a different argument, though. (And they clearly don’t 😂)

Edited November 29, 2021 by Jayuk1983

[Jayuk1983 5]

1 hour ago, nemorus said:

Learn to accept reality. That's all i'm saying.

I know you get a lovely shot of dopamine every time you say something deliberately annoying on the internet and get a rise out of someone, but “learn to accept reality” is not synonymous with “I have a different opinion to you”. 

[nemorus 265]

If you feel it's "annoying" then what's there to say? Nothing really. Feel free to play as you want - but please, leave "ethics" and other turgid ideas for yourself. The game is set - full sandbox. We have enough limits in it as it is.

[Jayuk1983 5]

How do I delete a thread? Not only did it go down like a lead balloon, but I felt I must have worded my thoughts badly (given the positive response it got on other forums), and I feel it got derailed a bit towards the end (I don't think "turgid", "nonsense", and "ridiculous" constitute genuine constructive criticism (the rest were good points)). In the end, I just can't be bothered with this thread being here and would like to delete it, but I can't figure out how! Haha!

[Guest]

I think if I had to murder to have the option to defend myself without hesitation I might get stuck in the mindset of murder. I don't like KOS most of the time, I would like more interactions on official. I am also one of the people that will plant freshie gardens and place land mines in them randomly or tripwire cherno alternating between smoke grenades and real ones. My play style isn't the same almost every time I play, sometimes I run around rubber slugging people to rob them or give them excess gear of "mine". Or I just don't want to talk. I like the idea of less kos, but I'm not sure how to implement it without, in my view somehow dampening or restricting my whimsical or asinine gameplay.

[lakevu 98]

very interesting! I have been thinking the same thing myself. However, I have been persuaded that KOS is indeed a big part of the game and should be left alone. Simply for the fact would do that in real life and punishing a player for KOS with a humanity system and such doesn't really make a lot of sense. especially since in real life I'm sure there are people who don't care about killing people and it wouldn't really affect them in the ways you suggested. However, I do believe we can incentivize people to "interreact" more instead of just killing each other without talking. My suggestions to make this happen are these.

1.) Make capture and torture more fun. Having the ability to permanently scar a person's character as long as they live would be really appealing to some people. Cutting off fingers, toes and leaving cut scars on the body.

2.) Make it so a person's loot gets more easily damaged and destroyed during a gunfight. Bring back how it use to be in .62. Where mostly everything would be ruined on you if you got shot in the jacket and such. This would stop people from straight up killing without thought knowing they would get nothing out of it unless they either captured them or got a precise headshot. Which would at least add more time before you got KOS'd. 

3.) Chang the damage so more people go unconscious during a fight instead of straight up dying. Within reason. Then atleast the person who is doing the KOSing has a choice at the end to kill them or capture them. 

4.) Give more options on how to make people go unconscious and capture them. Tasers. Beanbags, Dart guns, make legs easier to break and broken arms. I dont know. But there aren't a whole lot of choices when it comes to tools on how to capture people so you can talk.

5.) Make certain actions 2 person only or at least derive a bigger benefit from the help of another person than doing it yourself. Such as Saline and blood bags can only be done by a partner or you get a lot less than if you had somebody else do it for you and such. Or bring back the defibs so your partner or one person has a tool to pick someone up form unconscious better than the EpiPen can. Or make it so actions like stitching yourself up can only be done by another person if you are low enough health so you would take too much damage if you did it just yourself. Just stuff like these so solo people see other people as some sort of benefit than just purely a threat with no upsides to talking and partnering up.

P.S: I feel the only way you are going to make it more intriguing for people to do more banditing type stuff instead of just shooting on sight is if you make the person they are targeting more valuable alive to them than if they were dead.

Edited December 1, 2021 by lakevu

[TheRazec007 0]

Frankly,  I love the RP servers. I wish there was more RP in official servers. However,  I am hesitant when thinking of implementing ways to reduce KOS. While this game is seen as realistic,  and for the most part it is, it is also realistic for players to KOS. In a scenario like dayz many players hesitate to kill a player , I was one of those players. I remember when I first started playing , I entered this game with a mindset of " I will not kill unless I have too" and thats me in real life as well. So , I started the game with that mindset. I find myself in Gorka about 50 or so meters west of the town when I hear multiple gunshots. While I am cautious,  I was also curious. So I went to investigate. I observed the town and cleared houses searching for the source. I find a small house , door open and multiple bodies. Some where zombie bodies but I find two dead humans. One was inside the house and another was outside. While I was investigating the body inside the house I hear someone outside. I go outside to speak to this person. I make contact and I beging to ask him questions when he launches at me with an axe. I aim my carbine and fire 4 shots fatality wounding him. I felt terrible,  however as I kept playing killing did become easier. And I've made contact with "friendly " people when they suddenly pull a gun out of nowhere. 

So as the game progressed I trusted less and now everyone is hostile until I confirm otherwise.

So I understand the suggestion and I like the vomiting on the first kill thing not gonna lie. But recently the devs have changed the way damage is done by bullets , so now it seems you are more likely to be knocked out by a bullet. With that change there should be more chances to RP. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by TheRazec007
Adding thoughts

[Officer Failure 33]

Less KOS would be nice, some suggestions:

Make using weapons more realistic (and more of a pain)  

1. Aiming is way too easy. The devs made nice sway patterns but you only need to hold breath and suddenly - no sway in every stance. You spot a player in a village 150m away just looting and minding his buisiness and kindly he stands still for an unaware moment? Just press strg and hit. Way too easy - back in the arma 2 mod when you were out of breath, long shots were luckshots especially standing free. Also sickness and general weakness or just beeing out of breath could have more effect.

2. Gun condition should also affect dispersion. In a perfect game every part from buttstock to barrel should have its own condition and its effect - on every weapon. But for easyness maybe splitting the condition (cleanness) of the barrel (for disperion) and the chamber(for jams) for every weapon would be nice.

3.Finding loose ammunition in houses is nice but why are they all in good condition? Bad storage (humidity changes ) has an effect and not everyone is aware of that (maybe all the people of chernaurus are). I guess there are smarter people than me to ask about damaged ammunition (and generaly weapon stuff) but it sure could be weaker or just a bit random. And what about old ammunition especially 7,62 × 54 mm R could be very old considering people keep weapons and ammunition from earlier conficts and they maybe just dug them out from their garden when the fun started (they sure did not all use drybags). I know that old ammunition is very random. Almost every round sounds differnt some doesn't go off and on every 10th round the bullet casing tears off and the bullet extraktor (bolt action) don't get the whole bulletcase - causing a heavy jam or even a barrel explosion if you force load another bullet in (which usually doesnt work anyway).

4. And shotgun buckshot could come in three variations (instead of only the big bear/human killing ones) . For Small hunting game (Tier 1), mid game (Tier 2) and Bear country (Rest) including Military. That would fit pretty well because those animals spawn in these loot tier areas and hunters (which also live in villages) would have them.

But bear in mind that those changes would also help geard bambikillers.

On 12/1/2021 at 8:34 PM, lakevu said:

2.) Make it so a person's loot gets more easily damaged and destroyed during a gunfight. Bring back how it use to be in .62. Where mostly everything would be ruined on you if you got shot in the jacket and such. This would stop people from straight up killing without thought knowing they would get nothing out of it unless they either captured them or got a precise headshot. Which would at least add more time before you got KOS'd. 

 

Totally agree with that. Espacially in the second stage of the game where you found a bit basic stuff und you made it a little inland. You often kill because they could have more food, meds or ammo for a weapon you just found. I recenty shot two guys with shotgun pellets and just one item in their inventory was destroyed - besides clothing (one of them wore a protective vest). But if about a third of the whole inventory gets destroyed or damaged and the damege has an effect on that item, maybe then robbing will get more interesting (maybe among with other factors).

I often had been killed as a newspawn for that half bandage and the apple (at least i assume) . If that would get ruined in any case of death then i thinkthat would help a bit.
 

Bring back the humanity score

Back in the arma 2 dayz mod there was the humanity score which gave you a bandit skin or the hero skin besides the spawning survivor skin and it was based on their kill/helping behavior. Of course there wasnt individual clothing like we have now (well yes but not in that extend).

It would be cool if there would be an armband (stupid) or a shacking on humanity positiv (like unwittingly doubt) and a focus or heavy heartbeat on the bandits when you aim with an weapon on them.
If i would know - thats a nice guy, its unlikely he kills me - then i much rather talk, rob or avoid (if been unseen) that person (all depends on various factors ofc). But right now it has no consequences if you kill or not - it doesnt make a difference and if you see first you a have major advantage. The game even shows you after launching how many people you killed and not much else (if it works properly). And if the number is high you think "im a good player" but it would be nice if the game could also shows you a different kind of "good".

Right now this game gives you trust issues, maybe on the coast you could find some friendly people but the rest is KOS. Thats the way i keep it.

[liquidcactus 719]

To be honest i think its about choosing the right server for YOU. I play on dayzdownunder, now its a popular server, there is factions and groups and kos but its no where near as retarded as official servers. The server is hardcore survival and people are less inclined to kos (sometimes) but shit gets real up north where all the military terroist commando looking groups are fist fucking each other. I have met alot of freindly players on that server.

[General Zod 1118]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:12 AM, Jayuk1983 said:

So what about if every time you killed another player you couldn’t eat for a while? Or maybe you were even sick after the first kill. After each kill it “gets easier”.

 

So the more people I kill the less negative effects of killing them I get ? Because that sounds to me like an incentive to kill more people.