New gun mechanic that will complicate and simplify at the same time

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

Disclaimer: Guys, sorry for bad english - i would ask to point on my mistakes, i will correct them) Also, I didn't find a similar suggestion. That's why I created this one.

Main reason why many people laughs at Bohemia Interactive unhappy about "gunplay" in DayZ (at least in russian community, don't know about western community) is unrealistic and silly mechanics of wear.

Now it takes ~3 mags to get "damaged" status (!) for most guns in the game, and almost the same amount to get “badly damaged”. IRL even Somali pirates guns which are covered in rust and which haven't been clean since the factory shelf - works OK.  We understood that this gameplay limitation is implemented just to not let the game become an easy shooter but it can be made way more deep. Idea is simple - сleanliness status: firearms become dirty by 2 main reasons:

• external factors (weather, going prone with weapon in hands or on your back^*)
• internal factors (numbers of shot fired, existed condition status of guns)
   

Therefore, dirtier the weapon - greater the risk of getting malfunction, cleanliness status must not affect condition status BUT existed weapon condition status should still affect on malfunction chance.
Gun condition status must be decreasing VERY slowly - definitely not that fantastically fast as it’s now. As i see it - endurance (i mean reliability in term of condition - not sure about correct term) of all guns must be raised at least 4 times from current level.

Some thoughts about how this status may work: 

• Prone, with weapon in hands - maximum^** speed of dirtiness
• Prone, with weapon on a back/ Crawl, with weapon in hands - medium speed of dirtiness
• Crawl, with weapon on a back/ In full growth, with weapon in hands - minimum speed of dirtiness
• In full growth with weapon on a back - no dirtiness, until weather or internal factors
• While weapon in a backpack or under the closes - no dirtiness even under external factors

That will lead to change in players approaches for firearms maintenance in the game from “fired 3 mags - condition status damaged/badly damaged - use cleaning kit - it’s all good for another 3 mags” for more complex process like “i shot some zds and beans carriers - gun cleanliness status: slightly dirty - then i was crawling on the muddy field under the rain - gun cleanliness status: dirty  - there is serious risk to get jammed weapon - cleaned the gun” or “i have been knock-out to unconscious state in gunfight  - gun dropped on a ground - status: dirty - got no time to clean, switch to handgun/other weapon” or any other scenarios.

^*-Depending on surface and areas (i think in urban areas and asphalt roads or in buildings this must to be minimize to be insignificant, until the rain (Chernarus/Livonia), blizzard (Namalsk), or sandstorm (Takistan)
^**-dear devs, maximum doesn’t mean 2 movements = your weapon is now mud disaster, thx for understanding

Bonus suggestion:

Something about 2 year ago, on a livestream, one of DayZ devs (back in the days - community manager) Tim "Impuls"  have told us about (Quote ahead)

Quote

"we are working on been able to enable more complicated weapons, for example the Magnum, because it has 6 individual rounds that are loaded, it's a bit more complicated to make properly than other weapons also because you wants to play a Russian roulette with Magnum, i know you wants to"

So, we want to get missing functionality of the revolver cylinder and ability to play Russian roulette with fellow survivors=)
Pls, share your opinion in topic comment section.

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

You should clean your weapon more often than every 90 rounds fired. Gun mechanics seem good to me. Your weapon isn’t guaranteed to jam just because it is damaged, only more likely. I once had M4-A1 jam when it was worn, which is realistic since it is a piece of garbage compared to M16 and AK-M.

Russian roulette is a fantastic feature. I could build an entire character around that, like two-face, Harvey, with his coin.

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

On 11/8/2021 at 7:28 AM, EzyStriderPS4 said:

You should clean your weapon more often than every 90 rounds fired. Gun mechanics seem good to me. Your weapon isn’t guaranteed to jam just because it is damaged, only more likely. I once had M4-A1 jam when it was worn, which is realistic since it is a piece of garbage compared to M16 and AK-M.

Russian roulette is a fantastic feature. I could build an entire character around that, like two-face, Harvey, with his coin.

Lol, no. No one should clean gun "more often".
I played this game since original mod for Arma 2 came out and since early access in Steam for standalone game - i'm not interesting (so as any other normal player) in casual console player opinion. No offense. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Artyom Kalinin
forgot to quote

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

You only play games, Artyom. Lol, indeed. You will need to do more push ups before you can use real AK-M.

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

10 hours ago, Artyom Kalinin said:

Lol, no. No one should clean gun "more often".
I played this game since original mod for Arma 2 came out and since early access in Steam for standalone game - i'm not interesting (so as any other normal player) in casual console player opinion. No offense. 

So your opinion is more important somehow? Do tell... 

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

On 11/10/2021 at 7:01 AM, EzyStriderPS4 said:

You only play games, Artyom. Lol, indeed. You will need to do more push ups before you can use real AK-M.

  I don't need to, already served my country with PKM as assigned weapon almost 4 years ago. What about you? Let me guess - armchair-SOF-cod-FaZe clan?

On 11/8/2021 at 7:28 AM, EzyStriderPS4 said:

I once had M4-A1 jam when it was worn, which is realistic since it is a piece of garbage compared to M16 and AK-M.

 

Wow, I see that's your opinion based on impressive knowledge and expertise! Let me tell you: this is not realistic, this is bullsh*t. At least until DayZ doesn't have ammo-related/mag related malfunctions (gunpowder degradation due to humidity, double feed,  etc.). In attempt to make M4A1 jam type scenario described by you something little more realistic - my suggestion was created.
You don't need to clean gun "more often", even if firearm (especially military grade) expired his service life, those guns are designed to work in harsh conditions with little or even no maintenance -  AK-family rifles, AR-15 - doesn't matter. All of them are capable. Not only them, but other rifles and handguns too. What else? Guns works flawlessly even without cleaning at all - MAC had tested his BCM AR in 10000rnd and the gun passed through just ok. 
Now, pls, try to defend your point about good gun mechanics and gun cleaning so we can laugh one more time.

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:47 AM, DayzDayzFanboy said:

So your opinion is more important somehow? Do tell... 

Nope. But DayZ may become even worsen if dev team don't stop listen casuals and folks from consoles.
Now we have hit indicators(beCaUsE iT's ToO hArD tO kNoW fRoM whErE yOu HaVe bEEn sHot), zombies HP levels(iT's ToO HaRd tO FiGht wiTH Zds oN CoaStLInE), unrealistic angled sights on АС ВАЛ and AUG A3(We WaNt Call of Duty Gucci-gun😥😥) - 

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

8 hours ago, Artyom Kalinin said:

Nope. But DayZ may become even worsen if dev team don't stop listen casuals and folks from consoles.
Now we have hit indicators(beCaUsE iT's ToO hArD tO kNoW fRoM whErE yOu HaVe bEEn sHot), zombies HP levels(iT's ToO HaRd tO FiGht wiTH Zds oN CoaStLInE), unrealistic angled sights on АС ВАЛ and AUG A3(We WaNt Call of Duty Gucci-gun😥😥) - 

I still don't get your point. Why are you so convinced that hit markers are console players fault? Show me evidence of console players asking for this feature. Get off your high horse. You play video games the same as we do. Stop fantasising that you're somehow superior because you play on pc. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by DayzDayzFanboy

[Derleth 1357]

Someone posted a video of a soldier mag dumping repeatedly with an M4 until it jammed, iirc it was on the fifth or sixth mag it started giving him problems - hard to get the mag in when reloading and then a jam. Of course it is an extreme case since the M4 is many things but not a SAW, it is not designed for sustained fire like that so the issues were likely more due to extreme heat than fouling.

The gun wear in DayZ is like all other things (like metabolism, sickness, shoe wear etc) accelerated to be a relevant game mechanic. If those features worked in realistic rates they would barely be noticeable in the game since we don't spend that much time in the game. Well most of us don't - and rarely on the same character for very long...

Still, some guns do get damaged too quickly, especially the pistols. I wouldn't mind a general health buff to weapons - and I like the idea about other actions contributing to the weapons' condition worsening over time.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Derleth

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

17 hours ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

I still don't get your point. Why are you so convinced that hit markers are console players fault? Show me evidence of console players asking for this feature. Get off your high horse. You play video games the same as we do. Stop fantasising that you're somehow superior because you play on pc. 

Stop ascribe an fantastic opinion about superiority to my words, thx. My English is bad, so I struggle to express my thoughts proper way, sorry for that. I'm no superior, but my point why i don't want to know casuals players opinion lay in simple thing. DayZ success is obliged by one guy from NZ unforgivable AND realistic (as far as it's possible) gameplay. What do we have now? How many implementations were complicated gameplay process in a year of development? I will tell you - 3. Hazard gas zones, legs bones fracture and wounds infection. Sees that by my own eyes - casuals have been cryin in "suggestions" of DayZ discord channel about landmines, about instant kill by .308 and 54R in a torso, about broken legs recovery time, about everything hard. Once again: what we have in DayZ now? Zds punches now weaker, landmines and grenades wouldn't kill you, hope those rounds still kill survivors. All of that thx to them. Should i tell you what will game may become if devs won't change vector from easiness?

p.s I remember when casuals were asking (suggesting) for things like "explosive bullets" and "removing first person perspective servers". It seems funny to me. Now it is not.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Artyom Kalinin
found a mistake

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

12 hours ago, Derleth said:

Someone posted a video of a soldier mag dumping repeatedly with an M4 until it jammed, iirc it was on the fifth or sixth mag it started giving him problems - hard to get the mag in when reloading and then a jam. Of course it is an extreme case since the M4 is many things but not a SAW, it is not designed for sustained fire like that so the issues were likely more due to extreme heat than fouling.

The gun wear in DayZ is like all other things (like metabolism, sickness, shoe wear etc) accelerated to be a relevant game mechanic. If those features worked in realistic rates they would barely be noticeable in the game since we don't spend that much time in the game. Well most of us don't - and rarely on the same character for very long...

Still, some guns do get damaged too quickly, especially the pistols. I wouldn't mind a general health buff to weapons - and I like the idea about other actions contributing to the weapons' condition worsening over time.

I supposed that was on one of the meltdown vids on Iraqveteran8888 youtube channel, and yes, M4 wont give problems on 6 mag in full-auto.
Exactly, it is accelerated too much - i assume the reason for that not to let game become endless gunfights. BUT IT MAY BE DONE MORE SUITABLE WAY: my suggestion about status of cleanliness or/and ammo condition status + mags condition status, new malfunction types, respawn quantity of guns parts, etc. there is many ways to do it. 

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

23 minutes ago, Artyom Kalinin said:

Stop ascribe an fantastic opinion about superiority to my words, thx. My English is bad, so I struggle to express my thoughts proper way, sorry for that. I'm no superior, but my point why i don't want to know casuals players opinion lay in simple thing. DayZ success is obliged by one guy from NZ unforgivable AND realistic (as far as it's possible) gameplay. What do we have now? How many implementations were complicated gameplay process in a year of development? I will tell you - 3. Hazard gas zones, legs bones fracture and wounds infection. Sees that by my own eyes - casuals have been cryin in "suggestions" of DayZ discord channel about landmines, about instant kill by .308 and 54R in a torso, about broken legs recovery time, about everything hard. Once again: what we have in DayZ now? Zds punches now weaker, landmines and grenades wouldn't kill you, hope those rounds still kill survivors. All of that thx to them. Should i tell you what will game may become if devs won't change vector from easiness?

p.s I remember when casuals were asking (suggesting) for things like "explosive bullets" and "removing first person perspective servers". It seems funny to me. Now it is not.

I still don't understand what you mean by 'casuals'. Do you mean console players are just casual gamers? Do does that mean if you play games on a pc you're a hardcore professional gamer? Asking for a friend. 

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

I love how this guy says “share your opinion” and then insults everyone that doesn’t agree with him.

[DefectiveWater 536]

There needs to be tweaks to gun wear.
Continuous full auto should cause more wear than single shot once every here now and then.

Overall gunplay and guns need to be reworked I think...
But I think it might be nice if guns could get dirty too, idk. DayZ doesn't have mud mechanics - if you roll around in the mud you aren't dirty, so idk...

 

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

On 11/12/2021 at 10:15 PM, DayzDayzFanboy said:

I still don't understand what you mean by 'casuals'. Do you mean console players are just casual gamers? Do does that mean if you play games on a pc you're a hardcore professional gamer? Asking for a friend. 

My bad, i didn't know meaning of the term in English - for you "hardcore" gamer is someone who plays all day long, on my native lang term has different meaning - like player who plays only simulators or very skill-based games. I mean console players don't know those type of games like pc players do, because first fanbase of DayZ  were ArmA players. And i'm one of them)

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:14 PM, Artyom Kalinin said:

I know that console players are not brightest people on Earth, but you are dumb as hell.
If you are such a snowflake and you find my words insulting (which are not, obviously) - better turn off your smartphone browser or whatever you are using.

Btw, i asked you questions - where is your reply, mr. push-ups?

I never said I was offended. And my reply is the second post in this thread. Literally, the very first reply to this topic. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by EzyStriderPS4

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

On 11/13/2021 at 8:14 PM, Artyom Kalinin said:

I know that console players are not brightest people on Earth, but you are dumb as hell.
If you are such a snowflake and you find my words insulting (which are not, obviously) - better turn off your smartphone browser or whatever you are using.

Btw, i asked you questions - where is your reply, mr. push-ups?

Wow, your arrogance knows no bounds. Your toxic attitude towards people is what gives this community, on any platform, its negative image. 

Pretty much most players, including pc, agree that dayz is in the best state its ever been in. There are a few who still prefer the old mod. And that is fine, everyone has different tastes. But blaming console players for bad decisions at BI is funny because, well how many years of bad decisions have you had before console even got a sniff of this game.

Rub your salt in your own wounds, not somebody else's. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by DayzDayzFanboy

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

And yall bitch at me about bringing up the car debacle.... hilarious.

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

3 hours ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

Wow, your arrogance knows no bounds. Your toxic attitude towards people is what gives this community, on any platform, its negative image. 

Pretty much most players, including pc, agree that dayz is in the best state its ever been in. There are a few who still prefer the old mod. And that is fine, everyone has different tastes. But blaming console players for bad decisions at BI is funny because, well how many years of bad decisions have you had before console even got a sniff of this game.

Rub your salt in your own wounds, not somebody else's. 

Show me where i have said about "bad state"? How many years of bad decisions - i'll tell ya - only 1 year of bad decisions, current year. So I will suggest just not seeing another one year like this. 

I'm blaming casuals (don't want to offend you and second guy, but also console gamers -  bcuz numbers of casuals among them) not because they are relatively new players (i mean not DayZ oldfarts like me) but for continuous attempts of suggestions and requests for things that will ease the game process. And it seems that you guys are OK with it. In that case let me ask one rhetorical question: why just start playing a hard game and love it (i guess, because there is no logic in playin game that you don't like) and then start asking for a simplification of almost every mechanic that in the game? Most terrifying thing - the devs listening to the most "whining" part of the audience - if it works that way, I will "whine" too.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Artyom Kalinin
mistakes

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

 Impulz, glad to see that you have visited us! 
Let me take this opportunity to suggest few minor improvements=)

 

First. 

AS VAL with dumbest backup ironsights and Ласточкин хвост-picatinny rail adapter. We understood that someone wanted to implement an OPFOR gun that can be used with Western sights. The questions are: Did this magnificent person do any research? How many references has he found? 
From the outside it seems that nothing has been done (maybe, first image appeared in google search and desire to make a Gucci-type gun from a Call of Duty were the only 2 steps which were considered as "sufficient"). Did he know that there exist high profile and low profile picatinny adapters for russian/soviet firearms? Did he know that in both cases standard ironsights are still operable and there is no need in angled (lol, almost forgot - even angle on that thing is silly) sights? Sooo, we need normal backup ironsights.

Second.

New ACOG 6x with Barska reddot... I thought DayZ still rely on real world examples (the same goes to AS VAL)
Even the Trijicon website presents this optic with a little reddot on top of it (Trijicon RMR or smth like that) and in US and UK military this scope goes up with similar little red dot. Why just simply not create a little bit more realistic model with pistol/shotgun reddot that already existed in the game? Pls, model of that sights must be done accordingly to real word examples(yes, i understand that you can mount almost everything on that top mount - but because it goes only with that reddot i'm once again asking for your financial support for realistic model.

Third.

AUG A3 with the same angled ironsight..(insert my whining from first point).

Edited November 15, 2021 by Artyom Kalinin
mistakes

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

Clean your rifle. Often.  Similar to the real world, if in the game the state of the weapon says “damaged,” and visibly it looks ruined, it does not mean it is no longer serviceable. It won’t be as accurate or reliable but it will still work. 100 rounds is more than enough reason to clean and oil the barrel of a firearm, you must know this! Especially since you have served mandatory military time and have experience with weapons. A PKM is not a rifle, it is meant for more sustained rates of fire. Even then, barrel degradation is a legitimate issue. In the real world, you would replace the barrel. In DayZ, you use an universal gun cleaning kit for all issues. 

The reason I said M4-A1 was garbage compared to AK-M is due to the design of the extractor and spring. We all know the M4-A1 also suffers from poor stopping power, unlike the longer barrel M16 which uses the full potential of the NATO ammo.

The mechanic is fine. At least we don’t have to clean our weapons every time it rains. (Which you should, if you’re hardcore.)

Edited November 18, 2021 by EzyStriderPS4

[EzyStriderPS4 191]

Currently, the way the bullet ballistics are, and with the newly re-balanced damage numbers, gunplay is lacking the hardcore elements, leaving much to be desired. Vitals? Upper limb damage? I would like to see suppressors by caliber.  Complaining about gun cleaning and trying to pawn off a bastardized system based on Metro is a waste of everyone’s time.

Edited November 18, 2021 by EzyStriderPS4

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

15 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

Clean your rifle. Often.  Similar to the real world...

Just stop, pal. Your knowledge about real firearms are something between zero and negative numbers.

15 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

if in the game the state of the weapon says “damaged,” and visibly it looks ruined, it does not mean it is no longer serviceable.

Thx. Didn't know that. I thought guns are for "shoot a little-throw-away" type of use. 
I will repeat: in the game - weapon get this status TOO FAST. Which is totally unrealistic and condition status must be buffed like 4 or even 6 times from current state. IF devs like jammed weapons mechanic they must implement more variants of malfunctions and ammo condition status.
Lite primer strike, failure to feed, failure to extract(already in the game), double feed, etc.

15 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

It won’t be as accurate or reliable but it will still work.

I'd like to mention, that in 3rd sentence you have said that's "similar to real world". Should I tell this is not precisely how real things are?

16 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

100 rounds is more than enough reason to clean...

Less. In the game this number is much less. 
If everything goes in the same direction, in the next patches the guys like you will defend their point by saying "20 rounds is more than enough reason to clean".😃

16 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

...and oil the barrel of a firearm, you must know this!

 Just stop, please vol.2

16 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

A PKM is not a rifle, it is meant for more sustained rates of fire.

Thx for cleared that out for me, pal, I'm not only Russian who arguing on bad English, but also an idiot.

16 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

Even then, barrel degradation is a legitimate issue. In the real world, you would replace the barrel.

Indeed. Most of the AKs in my company where made in 2000-2001, my (of course OUR, not mine) PKM was made even earlier - in 1997. Ok, barrels on that thing may be swapped pretty quick and I don't know when they were manufactured, so they may be younger (or not). What do you think, those AKs have been re-barreled? There is no such procedure, at least in place where I have served. Those rifles from the time when they hit the shelfs of armory in 2000 and till 2018 (dunno, may be they still in service for now, if they weren't replaced by new AK12) were shooting tremendous amount of bullets and surpass their recourse for a hundred times. Those old "worn" rifles runs good "in the fields", where weapon may be used very often and not be cleaned at all (yes, my friend, your first two sentences) and even works flawlessly in "дожигаем цинки"-scenario (i don't know how to translate, but this is when firing drills on shooting range are over but there is huge amount of ammo left and some soldiers burn those ammo in full-auto mode in a hurry for a number of reasons). Let me tell you. One guy burned fast something around 600 rounds and old rifle was fine.

17 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

 In DayZ, you use an universal gun cleaning kit for all issues. 

Can't argue with this.

18 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

The reason I said M4-A1 was garbage compared to AK-M is due to the design of the extractor and spring. We all know the M4-A1 also suffers from poor stopping power, unlike the longer barrel M16 which uses the full potential of the NATO ammo.

You even type AKM incorrectly, à la KA-M. Seriously, stop make oneself out to be an expert. AR15 has decent extractor with consistent pattern of ejecting cases. Spring? Which spring?
 Modern 5.56 ammo capable to show great results in penetrating body armor and punch real hard even with short barrel length AR. So this is bullsh*t, I'm not an expert in western guns, Americans guns enthusiasts may tell significantly more.

18 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

The mechanic is fine. At least we don’t have to clean our weapons every time it rains. (Which you should, if you’re hardcore.)

No doubt. As we, fellow gamers know - mechanics is totally fine. We enjoying those stupid and unrealistic way of maintenance. But this is not enough, we must ask for more! Make devs to improve mechanics of wear to make guns explode after a mag! Now we talking!

Jokes aside. Let's throw my suggestion in a trash can, why not, I'm not a proud-spirited. But tell me: if we ask devs for a buff of weapon condition status which will be more similar to real world and implementation of more malfunction - won't that make the game better? What do you think?

[Artyom Kalinin 15]

16 hours ago, EzyStriderPS4 said:

Currently, the way the bullet ballistics are, and with the newly re-balanced damage numbers, gunplay is lacking the hardcore elements, leaving much to be desired. Vitals? Upper limb damage? I would like to see suppressors by caliber.  Complaining about gun cleaning and trying to pawn off a bastardized system based on Metro is a waste of everyone’s time.

Pal, i'm complaining about unrealistic wear mechanics, surprise! Gun cleaning just a consequence of that flaw.
Nice suggestions!
Tell you more, mechanics of med aid must be more hardcore, like through-and-through wound and just through wounds with following extrication of bullet(don't know how to say it in English), with tourniquets, hemostatic bandages, CELOX - so much room to make more fun. 

[Tristan Cooper 12]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:40 PM, Artyom Kalinin said:

Nope. But DayZ may become even worsen if dev team don't stop listen casuals and folks from consoles.
Now we have hit indicators(beCaUsE iT's ToO hArD tO kNoW fRoM whErE yOu HaVe bEEn sHot), zombies HP levels(iT's ToO HaRd tO FiGht wiTH Zds oN CoaStLInE), unrealistic angled sights on АС ВАЛ and AUG A3(We WaNt Call of Duty Gucci-gun😥😥) - 

1: kind of a thoughtless comment. Just kinda weird how you think anyone from console has a worthless/bad opinion.

2: I know the pain from a gunshot takes a lil while to register, but you would probably know where it came from.

3: zombie hp levels? I know they reduced the health. It really wasn’t that much of a change.

4: what the hell is a Gucci-gun and why is that your argument? Just be glad they haven’t added a compact Lmg or something.