Different spin on weapon maintenance

[hishnik 23]

Prelude: I did do my homework, this has been suggested, but my suggestion is different. I am including other similar threads on the bottom of my post

What: Weapon Maintenance

How: By tracking weapon after it has been picked up by a player. Keeping track of the rounded off (approximate) number of shots made. Once the number of shots has hit a certain threshold it has a chance to jam.

If jammed - simple reload (Like in real life, cycle the weapon, discard the troubled round, keep going until next jam.

To perform 'maintenance' - use the 'field repair kit' (or maybe even let it be done with toolbox to make easier), 3 seconds later, gun is back to its original spec

Why:

To keep players on their toes.

1. Having that element of surprise and unexpectedness when your weapon jams because you shot off bunch of rounds without cleaning it

2. Snipers get very comfortable once they found their sweet spot, and with offline hunger/thirst gone, there is very little incentive for them to move anywhere near the cities (unless they want to terrorize it of course)

3. Additional timesink - i know, this is the part that everyone hates, but it is necessary evil. This is the time when someone needs to hide away and clean their gun, being potentially exposed to someone else

Detailed explanation:

Truth be told, brand new weapon is not as good as one with 200-500 rounds through it. Depending on the maker, rifles can take as much as 700 rounds to be 'broken-in'.

By the same token, if it would be possible to introduce the 'jam' in the game, it would be very cool, i think. Something simple, similar to how it is in lets say Jagged Alliance. The less maintained the weapon is, the more chances it has to jam. Once jammed, you are forced to reload (can be great disappointment to have to reload when you need to make the follow up shot).

For the actual maintenance - there should be a field kit, that has say 2-3 charges to it before it's gone (worst case - toolbox).

This way, lets say you do find that camper, you grab his gun.. His wonderful .50cal, you take a shot, and then another, and bam! A jam?! You fix it by cycling a round through, but you just lost some precious time and a rare round just because someone didnt take good care of their weapon.

At the same time this mechanic would force campers to get up and move into the city more often to get the field cleaning kits.

(As a bandit, i can assure you i'm quite comfortable sitting where i am, with 4 canteens + 10 pieces of meat, especially now that character doesnt get hungry/thirsty offline)

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=23299

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=23068

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=25121

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=23244

Few more of recent ones:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/34837-weapon-conditiondegredation/#entry332651

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/44563-new-small-item-that-makes-a-huge-differnce/

And another one on 7/24/12

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/44941-weapon-maintenance/

p.s. Maybe just take simpler approach, you could have crappy ammo. Say a 0.01% chance of having the misfire.

Edited July 25, 2012 by hishnik

[disturbd 1]

I like the idea, but I think its way to complicated for a zombie mod.

[hishnik 23]

I don't know, we as is got some complicated mechanics in place :)

[DemonGroover 8836]

+1

Needed. It is much too easy to sit on a weapon and know it will always fire a shot. Weapon degradation/jamming/repair is essential. I would even go as far to say the majority of weapons would already be degraded upon finding them.

[Captain Q 3]

Far Cry 2 all over again, or something to just help everybody die faster.

My answer is no.

The question you should ask yourself is; "Does this game really need it?"

The answer to that is "Nope." Players already have enough to keep them on their toes, and to worry constantly about trying to fix their weapon over and over again will probably make someone go bald form pulling their hair out. Maybe in the Beta stage, you can consider implementing this, but right now, the concept just isn't fit for it.

[DemonGroover 8836]

Far Cry 2 all over again' date=' or something to just help everybody die faster.

My answer is no.

The question you should ask yourself is; "Does this game really need it?"

The answer to that is "Nope." Players already have enough to keep them on their toes, and to worry constantly about trying to fix their weapon over and over again will probably make someone go bald form pulling their hair out. Maybe in the Beta stage, you can consider implementing this, but right now, the concept just isn't fit for it.

[/quote']

I think Rocket will disagree, i am pretty sure he is planning on adding some kind of maintenance system.

Why wait for Beta - thats to iron out bugs - get it in Alpha and lets give it a go.

[Captain Q 3]

I'd really rather see it implemented when all of the *other* bugs are worked out. As it is, many players won't be for sure if they will even have their weapons the next time they sign in. I'm not against it, at all, I'm just against it coming in sometime next week... Or within the next 3 months...

[hishnik 23]

I'm not saying this should be a priority. This is more long range planning type of idea. I feel it would add another dimension to survival.

I was able to be a hot zone bandit for 8 days before dying to a bug, not even a human. I didnt run out of ammo, and maybe if i would have to deal with a jam i'd be more reluctant to acting the way i was.

[Deviant (DayZ) 43]

I think it should be much less than Far Cry 2. For those who didn't play, if you had a weapon that's particular to jamming (a simple dart gun, an M16, etc), after about half your ammo supply, it starts to jam. That's about 150 rounds for the m16 iirc, and like 9-10 shots with the dart gun.

So, perhaps after a few hundred rounds, you start to get problems. Maybe have it take about a minute or two to clean/maintain it?

[KWilt 157]

I'd like to see some form of maintenance, but for the server to keep track of that much data, I'm not sure it's worth it.

You figure, it'd have to keep track of every single weapon on the map, as well as the 'decay' it's endured. The in-inventory weapons could be system-tracked, but the servers would have to handle everything else.

(Again, not sure how much work that would put on the servers. But if it would hamper them severely, it's a 'no' for me.)

[aralyae 1]

well, it doesn't make much sense to lose a round to a weapon malfunction of they're so sought after. usually a weapon misfire is due to a light strike on the primer of the round, a flawed round, or a problem with the gun that doesn't involve the bullet at all. As for a weapon repair kit that needs to be entirely replaced after a few uses? that's never made much sense to me. I've been using the same tools and cleaning kits for my guns since I originally purchased them. the only things that ever really need replacing are the cleaning patches, and the occasional bottle of cleaning fluid. As for a gun having so many rounds put through it that it starts to fall apart, you would need to put a LOT of rounds through it. more than any gun in dayz is likely to ever see. But requiring general maintenance, or otherwise risking accuracy degredation might make sense. but it would either be such a short time that it doesn't really matter, or such a long time that it becomes a frustration.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Aralyae

[IzYouFaggot 4]

agreed

[AscendedMike 0]

I think it's a good idea but I would like it to be a VERY uncommon thing. Not for my own gain but, if it happens all the time it'll be no surprise when it happens again. I don't like the idea of having to maintain it really but, if there's a 0.1% (or lower) chance that your round is going to jam your gun upon pulling the trigger, the odd one or two people will have an epic fail moment worth remembering for all time.

[hishnik 23]

I think it should be much less than Far Cry 2. For those who didn't play, if you had a weapon that's particular to jamming (a simple dart gun, an M16, etc), after about half your ammo supply, it starts to jam. That's about 150 rounds for the m16 iirc, and like 9-10 shots with the dart gun.

So, perhaps after a few hundred rounds, you start to get problems. Maybe have it take about a minute or two to clean/maintain it?

Way i envisioned it, depends on the archetype of the weapon.

AK (500 rounds)/Pistols > M4/16 (350 rounds) > Bolt action/snipers/high powered weapons (200)

Something like that, maybe for the sake of making it fun, lower all the numbers by say 100. Making it semi representative of true scenario, fraction of the real numbers, but enough to catch you off guard

well, it doesn't make much sense to lose a round to a weapon malfunction of they're so sought after. usually a weapon misfire is due to a light strike on the primer of the round, a flawed round, or a problem with the gun that doesn't involve the bullet at all. As for a weapon repair kit that needs to be entirely replaced after a few uses? that's never made much sense to me. I've been using the same tools and cleaning kits for my guns since I originally purchased them. the only things that ever really need replacing are the cleaning patches, and the occasional bottle of cleaning fluid. As for a gun having so many rounds put through it that it starts to fall apart, you would need to put a LOT of rounds through it. more than any gun in dayz is likely to ever see. But requiring general maintenance, or otherwise risking accuracy degredation might make sense. but it would either be such a short time that it doesn't really matter, or such a long time that it becomes a frustration.

I agree, as much as you use up in real life are the patches and the cleaning fluids/oils, but to make it easier in the game lets say its one/three time use thing. Lets keep in mind that in Iraq right now some militia's are 'maintaining' their AK's by dipping them into car oil :D

At any rate, i'm not suggesting to mimic the real life scenario, and wait for 1000 rounds to go through before you have some sort of issue. Just one out of 300-400 is good enough, as long as it can keep you on your toes, without getting annoying :)

And remember, my suggestion does not imply that once you have a jam you cant shoot that weapon, no by all means - shoot it, just expect the jams more often.

Lets say you have 0.01% chance of having a misfire (simple reload fixes problem) on less than 400 rounds fired gun, if you had the misfire the chance of you having it again now is 0.1%. NOthing major, but enough to make you want to find that kit, and take care of the problem

I think it's a good idea but I would like it to be a VERY uncommon thing. Not for my own gain but, if it happens all the time it'll be no surprise when it happens again. I don't like the idea of having to maintain it really but, if there's a 0.1% (or lower) chance that your round is going to jam your gun upon pulling the trigger, the odd one or two people will have an epic fail moment worth remembering for all time.

That is exactly wha ti was going for, just somethign to keep you on your toes, and have few epic moments to tell later :)

[hishnik 23]

well, it doesn't make much sense to lose a round to a weapon malfunction of they're so sought after. usually a weapon misfire is due to a light strike on the primer of the round, a flawed round, or a problem with the gun that doesn't involve the bullet at all.

By the way, from personal experience i can assure you, problem with a gun (trigger spring being too soft) can very much affect the loss of round due to a misfire. Russian manufactured ammo (berdan primer) requires a heavier hit by the hammer, and if the spring is too soft, you will result in having multiple rounds with tapped primer, but no shot. Fix is simple - you recock the gun, but it still takes time.

All in all, maybe it just comes down to having a 0.01% chance of encountering bad ammo? (i'll add it into suggestion)

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

I like this, and seeing Rocket mentioned sustaining oneself in this world including fixing things, i think the weapon maintenance is a good thing to add, i do not think there should be just one simple kit to take care of this. In my 'if you are good at something. professions & teamwork' i included a 'gun maintenance pack' giving 3 spots to fill with: rag, gunoil, brush (can be toothbrush), spare parts, mini screwdriver; and yes i know 3 wont fit all of these, that the core of the idea in that thread, but if 'repair' and maintenance can be done to several levels and a gun can actually break, aka, brush it out and oil it, or fully repair something that broke with spare parts and screwdriver. You can have expert gunfixing and just gunmaintenance. And with a chance of stuff breaking, there would be a need to keep on the lookout for a spare, OR, finding someone that can repair your gun!

[hishnik 23]

I like this, and seeing Rocket mentioned sustaining oneself in this world including fixing things, i think the weapon maintenance is a good thing to add, i do not think there should be just one simple kit to take care of this. In my 'if you are good at something. professions & teamwork' i included a 'gun maintenance pack' giving 3 spots to fill with: rag, gunoil, brush (can be toothbrush), spare parts, mini screwdriver; and yes i know 3 wont fit all of these, that the core of the idea in that thread, but if 'repair' and maintenance can be done to several levels and a gun can actually break, aka, brush it out and oil it, or fully repair something that broke with spare parts and screwdriver. You can have expert gunfixing and just gunmaintenance. And with a chance of stuff breaking, there would be a need to keep on the lookout for a spare, OR, finding someone that can repair your gun!

You're talking more towards the professions i believe, and i would start perhaps with something little smaller, just piece by piece introduce it. At first just maybe random misfires, later actual jams.

In perfect world it would be if the weapon is neglected, it will start misfiring (1 second to fix), and later hardcore jams (3 seconds) followed by broken weapon.

The most curious thing for me, would be to have the guns persistent. Meaning, as they change owners, their stats remain. Which means player one shot 300 rounds through, had a jam, dropped it. Player 2 picked it up, shot 125 shots, had a jam, ignored it, shot another 200 had a jam, ignored and threw it out. By now, the weapon had 625 rounds through it, and lets say its at 80% of it's maintenance meter, what will next person picking it up do? If they have the kit, will they take the chance? Or will they fix it?

[enforcer1975 1111]

I think it's impossible. Once you leave all the info like the magazine info refill bug will be gone and you would start with a fresh rifle. And even if it's possible it would add lots of traffic, imagine having to send info back and forth from database to server and back for 1mio players every time they DC?

[hishnik 23]

I think it's impossible. Once you leave all the info like the magazine info refill bug will be gone and you would start with a fresh rifle. And even if it's possible it would add lots of traffic, imagine having to send info back and forth from database to server and back for 1mio players every time they DC?

I'm not sure of exact mechanics of DayZ/Arma engines. But i would imagine that it should'nt be too much of overhead. You're tracking not the bullets, but rather the bullet count. If you think about it, the 'persistency' of weapons isnt that big. A lot of weapons get 'traded up', a lot of loot disappears into abyss when player bodies disappear quickly, now-a-days.

It doesnt create extra traffic, it shouldnt at least, when the player info is saved you just add two/three more numbers in there, for the % of the weapons degradation. Its not like you're overflooding it with info :)

[superpig555 0]

This does need implementing.

[hishnik 23]

This does need implementing.

Thanks, i really hope developers can maybe implement even a part of this :)

[Ampoliros 43]

I think this definitly needs to be in the final build but I don't think it needs to be a priority.

Basic weapons could probably be maintained by a toolbox, but military grade weapons would need oil and maintence. High-end military gear (NVG's Thermal Scopes, GPS) should have a battery life that can't be maintained. (Unless final builds allow for the construction of generators.)

What's the worst thing that can happen to you when you're surrounded by aggro'd zombies and low on ammo. A gun jam.

[hishnik 23]

I think this definitly needs to be in the final build but I don't think it needs to be a priority.

Basic weapons could probably be maintained by a toolbox, but military grade weapons would need oil and maintence. High-end military gear (NVG's Thermal Scopes, GPS) should have a battery life that can't be maintained. (Unless final builds allow for the construction of generators.)

What's the worst thing that can happen to you when you're surrounded by aggro'd zombies and low on ammo. A gun jam.

^^^ Exactly, a jam could really ruin your day :)

I agree, also about the gear needing some sort of batteries and such to reduce the overuse of them. Lord knows, after half of year of using my red-dot on one of the guns i have, the battery ran out... Thus the reason for me to keep few more around :)

On another note, i updated my OP, to include the few recent similar topics.. Trying to keep it all in one :)

[NFK 102]

Weapon jams would be great. Fully support.