Survivor Games were a perfect example of run speed too fast/state of pvp

[Bororm 1156]

The survivor games happened the other day, something I know a lot of the devs were interested in and watched.  I can't say I watched the entire thing, but I watched for a few early fights and then caught the ending bit.

 

These are some of the "top" competitors in DayZ, and they are all considered quite skilled and are big personalities etc.  The point being, this event is essentially the pinnacle of DayZ SA pvp in terms of wide spread viewing.  I think it was honestly a bit laughable in a way.  I play the game to pvp, and when you're actually playing it's intense but it honestly looked awful.  Fights were largely close range with commentators calling 30m shots "amazing."  The ending battles that I witnessed devolved into the typical running circles and shooting that has become the state of SA pvp.

 

It's in large part due to the run speed.  You are much better off zig zagging and sprinting constantly than standing still the majority of the time.  Desync factors in hugely on top of the crazy speeds and the result is what we saw in the games, a ridiculous mess.

 

I've only ever watched one other Survivor Games, it was fairly early on in the mod.  The difference couldn't have been greater, the ending fights were all teams holed up in positions waiting for some one to slip up.  It might have been a bit extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum, but I'll take that slow, methodical, even some times boring, gameplay over the sprint fest the SA currently is.

 

I still have fun with the game.  But the community largely understands the sprint speed is absurd.  Couldn't we get some dev perspective on this at some point?  The question has been posed in the developer discussions and never addressed.  Maybe in light of the nearly comical encounters in this event that they all saw could spark some reflection.

 

 

 

(Another general pvp issue is items soaking damage.  We saw the contestants constantly throwing on new gear to soak that damage.  It's a bit ridiculous how even jackets and especially vests pretty much act as straight up armor, allowing you to soak some extra shots.)

 

 

[HeXedMinD (DayZ) 39]

Not to mention that the turn speed is instant.

[Munson_fry (DayZ) 312]

i liked the survivor games a lot ! ( moon and chow  :lol: )

But  we deffenatly NEED stamina ! So that people start to move realistcly arround.

 

i encourage the defs to play paintball to get a feeling for the way people move under fire.

 

it helped me to understand that 95% of all hollywood action scenes are utter Bullshit.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

MY balpark values when i was designing a game with realistic movements was:

 

Forward=100% speed

Backward=50% speed

Sidesteps=75% speed

Sprint: only forward

Diagonal steps: speed clamped to the slowest limit (75% for forward sidesteps, 50% for backward sidesteps).

 

Strafing is to get in and out of cover, peeking and so on, it's somewhat useful for melee combat but not at the degree of "circling around" that occurs in most fps games.

 

In the real world, "serpentine" maneuvers do not work.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Lady Kyrah

[Jex 1104]

Unfortunately DayZ devs are making the game for people with adhd who can't stand waiting or spending time to do things. In a game like this there is no reason to have the ridiculous movement speeds we have right now and they should grow a pair and change it.

[sneakydudes 278]

I disagree, I think its fine.

 

fix the desync and things will be instant deaths.

[sfx 22]

+100! I can't wait for this to become the game I always thought it would be... a survival simulator where you need to take your time and carefully plan each move, not a quake arena clone plus zombies, beans and minus the bunny jumps.

Edited February 12, 2015 by sfx

[Qiwik 7]

Afaik we were clearly told vehicles/central economy/etc first, run speed tweaks after. I think it's a wise decision.

Run speed is one of the things that are currently set to "On", like tons of food and health regeneration(though I only hope it will be removed).

[-Gews- 7443]

It's in large part due to the run speed.

Sprint speed is the same in both games, about 23 km/h. I tested over a short distance. The main difference is that it takes about 1.2 sec to turn 360° in mod, and about 0 seconds to 360° in SA. The second thing is the infinite sprint in SA, no reason to save your sprint till it's needed.

 

 

[svnryn 0]

OP:

 

I believe some of the sprinting issues will be alleviated once stamina is implemented. Personally, I think the devs should take note on how the A3 Epoch mod have implemented it. My only beef with the A3 epoch version is that I have to track my Stamina/fatigue values through that god awful debug tracker. But it's OK due to it being in alpha. 

 

Also once soft skills are implemented, I see new characters starting off as slow runners and progressing to a moderate pace the longer the character survives. Heck even the controls overhaul could address this.

 

Tl;dr: I agree with OP, miss the methodical play style. Complaint likely to be addressed by multiple things from road map. 

[sneakydudes 278]

It will force us into electro and chero more. But if you guys cant see that, the game would be doomed. The mosin will snipe you from a distance, and you wont be able to duck away. Stamina will be good for short bursts but when it runs out the guy sitting on the hill side will bring you down. You will have no chance at recovery, as your too slow to run after him.

 

Just saying watch what you wish for... In the end you will be upset.

[Bororm 1156]

Another thing is that the sprint speed with a gun in hands (lowered) is the same or only very marginally slower than unarmed.  Why that change was made is beyond me, as initially it was slower to run with guns in hand.

 

In fact, running with a pistol or even melee I believe, is slower than a rifle.  All this does is just reinforce running and gunning.

[gibonez 3633]

I would love for Dayz to be brave and adopt a super realistic movement system.

 

Acceleration and momentum should be a huge thing.

 

So for instance you move forward at a slow speed for a split second before you jog at full speed, sprint is extremely limited and really tires you, fatigue lasts longer than a few seconds.

 

When running and sprinting you have momentum it takes a bit of time to slow down.

 

You can't run to the side, strafing is not a thing in real life.

 

Walking backwards is about 25 percent of the speed of running forward.

 

When prone you cant spin on your belly , you have to readjust your body position.

[Bororm 1156]

They need to be careful with any sort of stamina system.  The game requires a ton of long distance running, and getting winded all the time and having to move at a crawl feels bad.  Some of the arma 3 mods/scenarios like KOTH are examples of how this can suck.  It feels like shit to have to drop to the floor every 30 seconds when you end up far out of the AO.  I can't imagine running across chernaruss with some of those systems.

 

I think it's better to just do a standard run/sprint speed that's determined by weight rather than a stamina bar.  The mod mostly felt fine imo, but a weight system wouldn't be bad for some balance issues.

 

 

 

Sprint speed is the same in both games, about 23 km/h. I tested over a short distance. The main difference is that it takes about 1.2 sec to turn 360° in mod, and about 0 seconds to 360° in SA. The second thing is the infinite sprint in SA, no reason to save your sprint till it's needed.
 

 

 

 

This should be a priority regardless of anything imo.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Bororm

[gibonez 3633]

They need to be careful with any sort of stamina system.  The game requires a ton of long distance running, and getting winded all the time and having to move at a crawl feels bad.  Some of the arma 3 mods/scenarios like KOTH are examples of how this can suck.  It feels like shit to have to drop to the floor every 30 seconds when you end up far out of the AO.  I can't imagine running across chernaruss with some of those systems.

 

I think it's better to just do a standard run/sprint speed that's determined by weight rather than a stamina bar.  The mod mostly felt fine imo, but a weight system wouldn't be bad for some balance issues.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't sprint then.

 

The main form of travel in Dayz should be a faster walk with jogging being a close second.

 

Sprinting should rarely be used but unfortunately hold shift is the main form of transportation in many peoples eyes within Arma.

 

They have kinda made changes to stop that though with the overheating mechanics and hopefully a brutal stamina system. Slowing the overall pace of dayz is a good thing not a bad thing.

The game has a gotta go fast approach that is bad.

[Bororm 1156]

Don't sprint then.

 

The main form of travel in Dayz should be a faster walk with jogging being a close second.

 

Sprinting should rarely be used but unfortunately hold shift is the main form of transportation in many peoples eyes within Arma.

 

They have kinda made changes to stop that though with the overheating mechanics and hopefully a brutal stamina system. Slowing the overall pace of dayz is a good thing not a bad thing.

The game has a gotta go fast approach that is bad.

 

It's not really as simple as "don't sprint" from a gameplay perspective, because it just feels like shit.  If you've got an option to run faster for a period of time, you're going to want to do it.  You can blame people for being impatient, but it's better to design a mechanic that "feels" good instead of punishing people for not fighting their instinct.  If I'm given an option to run for 30 seconds at twice my normal speed, and nothing is going on, I'm inevitably going to do that.

 

The problem with the system in KOTH for instance is that the sprint speed isn't a higher speed than the standard we're all used to, it is that speed.  And when you're not sprinting you're doing the equivalent of a walk.  Maybe if it was a sprint that took you a speed higher than normal run speed it would work, but as it is it just sucks.  Another issue is that the only way to recover is to go prone and do absolutely nothing.  You don't regain your bar for walking or jogging.

 

These systems are good for games where you are confined to a small map, and work alright in close battles, but for the amount of running we do in DayZ it's a bad idea.  Gradual increases/decreases or standard speeds are a much better solution than stamina bars.  Stamina bars are extremely arcadey besides.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Bororm

[gibonez 3633]

It's not really as simple as "don't sprint" from a gameplay perspective, because it just feels like shit.  If you've got an option to run faster for a period of time, you're going to want to do it.  You can blame people for being impatient, but it's better to design a mechanic that "feels" good instead of punishing people for not fighting their instinct.  If I'm given an option to run for 30 seconds at twice my normal speed, and nothing is going on, I'm inevitably going to do that.

 

The problem with the system in KOTH for instance is that the sprint speed isn't a higher speed than the standard we're all used to, it is that speed.  And when you're not sprinting you're doing the equivalent of a walk.  Maybe if it was a sprint that took you a speed higher than normal run speed it would work, but as it is it just sucks.  Another issue is that the only way to recover is to go prone and do absolutely nothing.  You don't regain your bar for walking or jogging.

 

These systems are good for games where you are confined to a small map, and work alright in close battles, but for the amount of running we do in DayZ it's a bad idea.  Gradual increases/decreases or standard speeds are a much better solution than stamina bars.  Stamina bars are extremely arcadey besides.

 

 

As a whole the Stamina mechanics still need work I will agree on that. The recovery rate alone is insane you can go from fully fatigued to fresh in a manner of seconds by proning thats insanely bad.

 

What I am saying is sure it might feel bad but the game will play good. Who cares how the game feels if the gameplay is better for it. Stamina has already proved that with its modest nudges.

 

As a whole slowing the game down would do a whole lot of good.

 

That being said Sprint should really truly be an all out sprint and it should have a great utility but like turbo in games it should be a limited use thing that has harsh penalties to abusing it.

 

I believe the secret to making this all work is for the devs to find it enjoyable to travel at a slower speed while at the same time getting people slowly adjusted to an every decreasing movement speed.

[zeotrope 76]

Also. When sprinting from flat ground to a hill. Let the player gradually lose speed as he ascends. Not this ridiculous instant walk speed 'slowdown'

 

Full sprint from a mountain top to a steep descent should result in a trip and ragdoll fall down the slope. 

 

All these problems are age-old dregs; left overs from Arma II (maybe earlier) and should not exist this far into the DayZ alpha. Isn't it time ????

Edited February 15, 2015 by Zeotrope

[gibonez 3633]

Also. When sprinting from flat ground to a hill. Let the player gradually lose speed as he ascends. Not this ridiculous instant walk speed 'slowdown'

 

Full sprint from a mountain top to a steep descent should result in a trip and ragdoll fall down the slope. 

 

All these problems are ago old dregs left over from Arma II (maybe earlier) and should not exist this far into the DayZ alpha. Isn't it time ????

 

Yes absolutely but at the same time they need to make elevation a far more daunting task there simply should be some hills that are impossible to elevate dead right.

 

Currently in dayz you can climb insanely steep hills almost like you have magnetic shoes on.

 

 

feels just like that.

[zeotrope 76]

Yes absolutely but at the same time they need to make elevation a far more daunting task there simply should be some hills that are impossible to elevate dead right.

 

Currently in dayz you can climb insanely steep hills almost like you have magnetic shoes on.

 

 

feels just like that.

Agreed. Stamina would help with that. But progressive stuff. Not instant penalties. Base the stamina on the difficulty (by degrees) of any given obstacle. Resting your player half way up a hill may be an option one day. Just as it would be IRL.

[Jex 1104]

In the mod, you couldn't sprint everywhere and it was never an issue so no, slowing people down is not going to make a difference as it was never an issue before. That's the logical answer - now the actual answer is people will whine and bitch about it because the devs put something in they never should have. Taking things away causes more crap than putting things in but why bother with 40 years worth of gaming knowledge and psychology and ignore all of that and just bung it in anyway.

 

The whole movement speeds thing is fucking childish and ridiculous in most games. Spinning 360 in 0.01 of a second, really? Running at olympic speeds with full gear on, really? Try doing that with full webbing, rifle, ammo and bergen and see how far you get. The whole mechanic has been an ill thought out joke from lazy dezs.

 

Taking it to the nth, will games in the future have us running so fast so we can almost instantly get to any point on the map that FPS's will literally become nothing but whack-a-mole as players bob up almost instantly in different cover spots simply because they're too impatient to run - fuck those guys.

 

Truns speeds should be limited full stop. If I have a M107 in my hands, I'm going to move 10 times as slowly as when I have a pistol in my hand. I cannot zig and zag at a sprint like I can in DayZ - what a fucking joke but everyone is doing it and they're doing it for bad reasons.

 

Let's hope we see some serious thought on the whole aspect of movement, not forgetting in DayZ we can turn our heads quickly all the time but not so much out hands.

[Munson_fry (DayZ) 312]

they just have to add bycicles.

this game plays in europe,every house has at least 2 bycicles, so getting one isnt a problem. and if its locked use lockpick or iron saw.

use ducktape if u have a flat tyre or plyers to fix the chain. use pistol flashlight if the dynamo isnt working and u want to make a night ride.

so much fun!!!

Bycicles are the answer to all out traveling needs. 

 

stamina problem solved.

[Jex 1104]

they just have to add bycicles.

this game plays in europe,every house has at least 2 bycicles, so getting one isnt a problem. and if its locked use lockpick or iron saw.

use ducktape if u have a flat tyre or plyers to fix the chain. use pistol flashlight if the dynamo isnt working and u want to make a night ride.

so much fun!!!

Bycicles are the answer to all out traveling needs. 

 

stamina problem solved.

 

LOL only the other day my friend and I were running north and were discussing just that. Bicycles are almost the perfect transport for DayZ - the perfect one being on foot.

[ChainReactor 922]

fix the chain

 

I'm fine, thank you!

[Uutgrunnen 96]

Agreed, moving speed is to quick and instant.

 

Have seen to many 1 on 1 fights with a gun vs. a melee weapon where the melee weapon is in (too) big of an advantage.

 

Maybe they will nerf this when more verhicles are added (bicycles???) and there are enough alternatives to running.