unbelievable situation, searching 3hours for matchbox!

[Rags! 1966]

.  You couldn't find matches, and therefore couldn't build a fire to stay warm/dry.  It is believable that a person may not be able to find matches in an post-apocalypse environment.  I personally would not be able to build a fire in the rain without a lighter/matches, I don't think it's that crazy.  And it doesn't matter if you die early, you just start again, hopefully near some matches.

 

Humans beings were starting fires for tens of thousands of years before the invention of matches, firstly. 

 

This boggles my mind about you people, you all want to put your fate into the hands of things randomly hopefully spawning within your grasp and if they don't, you die. You people like that idea. You people are actually advocating for that system because in your minds, you think that "Hoping items spawn around you = Challenging gameplay" when that's incredibly unintuitive. 

 

I guess that's the difference between what you think the game should be and what I think it is. 

 

For me, DayZ is a survival game. 

 

For you, DayZ is a game of sheer dumb luck and hope. 

[wingman.edu 55]

That's called a "survival game". You spawn in, find materials in the world, combine them and use them to survive. The danger shouldn't come from "oh, boy...I hope cans of food happened to spawn somewhat near me". It should come from "Can I keep myself alive while constantly being threatened by zombies and other players?" 

 

You're still arguing that players should be fucked over and put into unsurvivable scenarios because sometimes "that just happens in real life", and this baffles me that you would want that. Every "realistic" game has to make concessions with realism for the sake of gameplay. That's why you do things like respawn after you die or why you have to eat many cans of peaches and drinks liters and liters of water every day to just avoid starving. It's why you can fix a broken limb with a splint. It's why you can instantly fill a magazine with bullets. 

Players are not being fucked over, or intentionally put into unsurvivable scenarios.  The game doesn't know that it's spawning you in the rain near no matches or food.  The game is not out to get you.  If everything you need to survive was given to you on a silver platter, what's the point?  The environment is supposed to be a challenge, and this is part of that.

 

Again, loot is in no way final, so I really think this is a pointless discussion.

[chickenmcfuggits 49]

Has .22 sporter, finds matchboxes.

 

Has hypothermia, finds 50x .22 pellets.

 

I made this post earlier as a little joke, but I regret it now because I don't like the whole "make chernarus easy mode" bandwagon this seems to be and I definately don't want to be agreeing with anyone who is speaking in "this should/shouldn't" statements. Just for clarification:

 

A survival is a game where you have a chance to die, this is why it is called survival for christs sake. A game where you are pretty much assured to succeed if you make some correct series of decisions is called a puzzle game. This being said, its a lot easier for people to just chose another server or maybe look for some matches right away if its cold instead of making a mad dash for the nearest police station then it is to change an entire game in which 2.5 million people have invested in than to make the game easy because a small handful of people can't find matchbooks in the alpha.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Chzy

[Whyherro123 2283]

Players are not being fucked over, or intentionally put into unsurvivable scenarios.  The game doesn't know that it's spawning you in the rain near no matches or food.  The game is not out to get you.  If everything you need to survive was given to you on a silver platter, what's the point?  The environment is supposed to be a challenge, and this is part of that.

 

Again, loot is in no way final, so I really think this is a pointless discussion.

I don't really understand why you think using "natural/primitive" methods of survival, and making "primitive" (which the above things I linked to are decidedly not) tools and equipment is "giving survival to you on a silver platter". The methods I described and linked to are difficult and time-consuming. "Modern" methods and materials are preferable because they are faster and easier, not because they are more effective.  

 

Do I use matches or a lighter to start fires when I camp? Of course, I'm not a masochist. However, I don't depend on them, and both carry and know other methods of fire-starting. That is what survival is, not being dependent on specific things/methods, and being able to improvise them when needed. "Pure Dumb Luck" only makes up a small "percentage" of the actual equation. Most of it is the "Will to Survive", AKA what are you willing to do? Are you ready to try anything in order to survive? Or, are you going to give up because you don't have any matches, and get all frustrated and whiny because the other ways are "too hard"?

 

Survival is:

1% dumb luck

4% equipment

10% skill

85%  will to survive

 

Note: There are many different "survival equations" floating around.

 

 

EDIT: Hey, what part of the city are you from? My family is from Dorchester.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Whyherro123

[PhillyT 554]

Why shouldn't there be times when you arrive and face almost certain death?  Thats the point.

 

You drop me on the coast in Chernarus, I can tell you I am a dead man 9 out of 10 times.

[Rags! 1966]

Why do people keep insisting that survival is "hope things spawn around you"?

[PhillyT 554]

Because the number of times you are going to die because you aren't immediately able to find matches or an axe are incredibly rare.

 

If you are looking for set spawn points, I don't really agree with that.  If you are looking to increase spawn rates on some items, I can see that, but I've not found matches that hard to find.  I also don't think they are THAT essential to early survival.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Why shouldn't there be times when you arrive and face almost certain death?  Thats the point.

 

You drop me on the coast in Chernarus, I can tell you I am a dead man 9 out of 10 times.

There is a difference between "facing almost certain death" and "fucked over because the fickle loot gods decided to not spawn any matches, and that is the only way to build a fire because players and the devs didn't want "survival handed to them on a silver platter", ie, have alternate methods of doing activities"

[chickenmcfuggits 49]

There is a difference between "facing almost certain death" and "fucked over because the fickle loot gods decided to not spawn any matches, and that is the only way to build a fire because players and the devs didn't want "survival handed to them on a silver platter", ie, have alternate methods of doing activities"

 

I'm sure the spawn rates will be changed and there will probably be more than one way to start a fire. I made a post a while back myself about how you should be able to reliably find matchbooks next to those stoves in houses so people know where to look. It's just alpha, there is no reason to be worried about matchbooks really, of all things that are in DayZ.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Because the number of times you are going to die because you aren't immediately able to find matches or an axe are incredibly rare.

 

If you are looking for set spawn points, I don't really agree with that.  If you are looking to increase spawn rates on some items, I can see that, but I've not found matches that hard to find.  I also don't think they are THAT essential to early survival.

See, that is the thing. I don't want to have to depend on anything. If I am playing on a persistent server, and the coast has been picked clean, I want to be able to actually survive by using alternate methods to make rope, make a knife/make an axe, start a fire, make a container for holding things, rip blankets off beds for insulation, build shelters and fires for warmth and protection from the elements, etc etc etc, all without having to step into a town and actually depend on a random and entirely fickle and broken loot generator.

 

Primitive survival is not easy, nor is it fast, like "modern" equivalents. Don't get me wrong, I use modern things, like steel knives, matches, fleece clothing, rubber-insulated boots, plastic water carriers. However, I also know how to use the "more primitive" methods, and if I don't have access to the modern stuff and methods, you can bet your ass I am going to use the older ones. I want to survive.

 

If it is raining, and I don't have rain-gear. You bet your ass I am going to look for a tarp, or, lacking that, rip a blanket off a bed to use as another layer. If I don't have a knife, I am going to break some glass to get a nice,sharp edge. If I don't have matches, I am going to try anything and everything to get one going, from raiding chemical cleaners (which often contain alcohols) in houses, to striking sparks from a rock, to rubbing two sticks together. I am going to do whatever it takes to survive.

 

That is what Day Z could be, and what I want it to be, not "Oh well, this spawn doesn't have matches, better suicide before I freeze to death".

[PhillyT 554]

The percentage of people capable of making a fire without matches is extremely low.  All those survival videos people keep posting are fun, but the vast majority of people wouldn't know how to do any of those activities and most who watch them would struggle to mimic them anyway.

 

I agree that being able to do make shift layers would be cool.  Another option would simply be to reduce hypothermia rates in some way.  

 

This game shouldn't be about wilderness warriors by default.  I am perfectly fine with the game representing the experiences of Joe Average as he finds himself lost in a pseudo Russian province.

[Whyherro123 2283]

The percentage of people capable of making a fire without matches is extremely low.  All those survival videos people keep posting are fun, but the vast majority of people wouldn't know how to do any of those activities and most who watch them would struggle to mimic them anyway.

 

I agree that being able to do make shift layers would be cool.  Another option would simply be to reduce hypothermia rates in some way.  

 

This game shouldn't be about wilderness warriors by default.  I am perfectly fine with the game representing the experiences of Joe Average as he finds himself lost in a pseudo Russian province.

So, you are telling me that you wouldn't try it? Try anything? Just give up because you didn't know perfectly well what to do? Never take my class, your life would be hell. 

 

I taught myself how to survive, no-one taught me. I read about using a friction-plow in a fantasy book, thought it was cool, and tried it out. Took me three hours, several broken plows, and too many blisters to  count, but in the end, I got a fire going. And, it turns out I was using the wrong "kind" of wood. (You want hardwood plow on softwood board. I used softwood on softwood). I was nine.  If a nine-year-old kid with no experience and knowledge of the field could get something done with little more than an idea and a wheelbarrow of gumption, why couldn't an actual adult?

 

From making that working friction-plow, I was hooked. I looked up other methods, including a bow-drill, and tried them out. I failed, and got rather upset. Hours spent gathering materials, building the set, and working hard at it, all down the drain. Then I tried again. And again, until it worked. Then I actually started getting into Wilderness Survival, did a lot of research, and essentially trained myself. 

 

I am sure that even most "Average Joes" have heard about primitive fire-starting methods. Whenever I mention I teach Wilderness Survival, they almost always mention, 'You mean starting a fire by rubbing sticks together, right?" That thought would stay in the back of their minds, and if they ever found themselves in a situation without matches or lighter, I would expect them to think," Shit, that guy said he can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together! I should try that!"

 

Of course, they would probably fail, as the process is a little more technical than that, but the point is that they tried.

[PhillyT 554]

Thats great, if I polled 100 Americans, you would likely find MAYBE one who would even get close to starting a fire using anything other than a modern fire starting instrument.  

 

Sure you can try, but most people can't.  Post apocalypse, people aren't going to be hunting for a fantasy book on how to make a friction plow or googling videos on it.  A core pillar of the post apoc genre is the unpreparedness of society in the face of collapse.  Most people aren't junior prepers finally living out their dream of social disorder.

 

Unless the developers introduce backgrounds and sets of skills associated with them, I think the safer bet is to keep all players functioning as Every Men without specific training or skills in combat or survival.

 

Besides, there are much more unusual things in the game right now, such as using a knife to carve perfect strip steaks or ribeyes without a saws or power tools.

[jukaga 271]

WAD! Sometimes survival does come down to luck. Die of hypothermia in the freezing rain because you can't find adequate clothing/shelter or fire? That's a good thing. It's a bit harsh at the moment but we are playing an alpha and they are testing the ranges of temperature effects.

[mercules 1290]

This really is a problem, though, in all seriousness. If you spawn into a server where it's raining then you can die because the things you need to keep yourself warm/dry simply aren't there. I've spawned before and not been able to find matches.

 

You can't find something that hasn't spawned or that wasn't there in the first place, and it's a loot spawn issue that needs to be addressed. It's not "survival" when you have to find a certain object to survive and that object simply isn't within reach. When you die of hypothermia because there's no matches or waterproof clothing, that's not skill. That's not survival. That's just you getting fucked over by dumb luck because the objects that you can only get by picking up didn't spawn near you or somebody got them first. 

 

1. Just like they added in a way to create a bow and arrows without having to have a bunch of tools ahead of time I am sure they will add in some other ways to get a fire started.

 

2. Yeah, sometimes in a situation where your survival counts on something you might have get "lucky" enough to have what you need. There might not be any dry kindling or accelerant to get a fire going. Your lighter might not have enough juice in it to properly light or you matches might get wet. I've dumped a canoe and had my drybox crack and leak. Matches got wet, but I was lucky I had thrown a lighter in the mix as well and I could get that to light. 

 

Why do people keep insisting that survival is "hope things spawn around you"?

 

We don't. We know that the game won't always be this way. 

 

I am sure that even most "Average Joes" have heard about primitive fire-starting methods. Whenever I mention I teach Wilderness Survival, they almost always mention, 'You mean starting a fire by rubbing sticks together, right?" That thought would stay in the back of their minds, and if they ever found themselves in a situation without matches or lighter, I would expect them to think," Shit, that guy said he can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together! I should try that!"

 

Of course, they would probably fail, as the process is a little more technical than that, but the point is that they tried.

 

So what you you are saying is the average person can't start a fire without a lighter/matches? Go figure. 

[Whyherro123 2283]

1. Just like they added in a way to create a bow and arrows without having to have a bunch of tools ahead of time I am sure they will add in some other ways to get a fire started.

 

2. Yeah, sometimes in a situation where your survival counts on something you might have get "lucky" enough to have what you need. There might not be any dry kindling or accelerant to get a fire going. Your lighter might not have enough juice in it to properly light or you matches might get wet. I've dumped a canoe and had my drybox crack and leak. Matches got wet, but I was lucky I had thrown a lighter in the mix as well and I could get that to light. 

 

 

We don't. We know that the game won't always be this way. 

 

 

So what you you are saying is the average person can't start a fire without a lighter/matches? Go figure. 

1) Technically, you don't need a bunch of tools to make a wooden stick-bow. All you need is a sharp edge and some working feet. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFTPxK2X0NA)

The thing about the "Improvised Ashwood Bow" in-game is that it:

1) Would barely work in real life, being little more than a thing green stick

2) Said green stick isn't even carved down, like a "real" stick-bow.

3) Is capable of propelling arrows with unrealistic accuracy out to an unrealistic range with unrealistic power, for a bent green stick. Would a "real" stick-bow be capable of making shots like these?(http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/218261-improvised-ashwood-bowarrows-are-great/     Look at Gews Post) Yes, but not a bent green-stick propelling light arrows.

 

2) There is always dry tinder and firewood available, even in the harshest of weather conditions. You just have to look for it. And, even if there weren't any "outside" sources of fire-making-material (which is unlikely), there is always stuff you can find inside the HUNDREDS of buildings around Chernarus. Shave slivers off a doorframe, use chemical cleaners as an accelerant, rip up carpet to use as fuel, burn bits of plastic ( A plastic disposable spoon will burn for about 10 minutes), etc etc etc. Point being, you adapt and improvise your environment in order to survive, rather than surrendering because you don't "get what you need".

 

3) Will an average person be able to build a bow-drill fire-starter? No. Will they be able to make and use a friction-plow? Yes, it is one of the easiest "primitive" methods to use, and more effective than the hand-spindle method. However, that isn't the main point. The main point was: They were doing what they had to, trying things out, instead of throwing their hands up and screaming "IM FUCKED GUYS, DONT GOT NO MATCHES". There are plenty of stories of otherwise-untrained people thrown into survival situations, and they make do with what they have.

[Whyherro123 2283]

How to make and use a friction-plow

 

 

How to make and use a hand-spindle

 

 

Holy shit, guys, that was so hard. I can't imagine how someone wouldn't at least think about rubbing two sticks together! Guess I'm fucked without any matches!

[chickenmcfuggits 49]

How to make and use a friction-plow

 

 

How to make and use a hand-spindle

 

 

Holy shit, guys, that was so hard. I can't imagine how someone wouldn't at least think about rubbing two sticks together! Guess I'm fucked without any matches!

 

It really isn't that easy, at least it never was for me. Depending on the conditions of the environment it may take you a long while, if its even possible at all. Then depending on how caliced your hands are and the difficulty of it that day, you might not even be able to do much more with them for a few days afterward.

 

If making a fire this way was as simple as you (and youtube) imply, nobody would bother to pack matches into any survival/outdoors kit.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Chzy

[Whyherro123 2283]

It really isn't that easy, at least it never was for me. Depending on the conditions of the environment it may take you a long while, if its even possible at all. Then depending on how caliced your hands are and the difficulty of it that day, you might not even be able to do much more with them for a few days afterward.

 

If making a fire this way was as simple as you (and youtube) imply, nobody would bother to pack matches into any survival/outdoors kit.

1) What do you mean, "conditions of the environment"? I've gotten fires started in the rain using the hand-spindle method. Hell, my beginning-students (with no prior experience) have gotten a fire started using the friction-plow method when all the firewood they had was deliberately soaked in a bucket of water.  Like I said above, there is always dry wood to be found, so long as you look/work hard enough for it. I have yet to come across a situation where air-humidity has had an effect on my fire-making-success. And you do realize that "matches + fire lay =/= automatic success", right? All matches do is make it easier.

 

2) Gloves. I wear thin rock-climbing gloves when in the woods, and my hands are pretty callused. And, even in-game, there are plenty of leather working gloves laying around. And, you know what I would do in real survival situation if my hands were getting blistered and I had no gloves? Tear off a strip of something and wind them around my hands as makeshift gloves. You can't do that in-game (and therefore have to depend on spawned loot) only because the devs have arbitrarily prevented you from doing so.

 

 

If your survival depends on it, you will find some way to make it work

[chickenmcfuggits 49]

1) What do you mean, "conditions of the environment"? I've gotten fires started in the rain using the hand-spindle method. Hell, my beginning-students (with no prior experience) have gotten a fire started using the friction-plow method when all the firewood they had was deliberately soaked in a bucket of water.  Like I said above, there is always dry wood to be found, so long as you look/work hard enough for it. I have yet to come across a situation where air-humidity has had an effect on my fire-making-success. And you do realize that "matches + fire lay =/= automatic success", right? All matches do is make it easier.

 

2) Gloves. I wear thin rock-climbing gloves when in the woods, and my hands are pretty callused. And, even in-game, there are plenty of leather working gloves laying around. And, you know what I would do in real survival situation if my hands were getting blistered and I had no gloves? Tear off a strip of something and wind them around my hands as makeshift gloves. You can't do that in-game (and therefore have to depend on spawned loot) only because the devs have arbitrarily prevented you from doing so.

 

 

If your survival depends on it, you will find some way to make it work

 

Well for the rest of us morons who don't rub wood soaked in water together and make fire its hard.

 

Obviously if you're somewhere where there is gloves, there is probalbly matches nearby. Hence... matches. Work harder not smarter eh?

Edited January 19, 2015 by Chzy

[Whyherro123 2283]

Well for the rest of us morons who don't rub wood soaked in water together and make fire its hard.

 

Obviously if you're somewhere where there is gloves, there is probalbly matches nearby. Hence... matches. Work harder not smarter eh?

I take umbrage with the "moron" comment. The exercise was done in order to prove the point that fires can be successfully made when in the rain or otherwise inclement weather. I soaked the wood to represent the wood being soaked by rain, because it hadn't rained in 4 days during the middle of a New England summer.

 

Want to know how my students succeeded? (And, in fact, were the sole group that passed the course over the entire summer?) They used critical thinking skills, AKA tried different things out. The larger pieces were split into quarters using a knife, so that they would both dry out faster and have more surface area exposed to the flame.  The kindling had the wet bark layer scraped off, then split in half so it would do the same as above. The Tinder was stuffed next to each members groin and armpit, so that their body heat would dry it out.  All this without me suggesting anything. They just pooled ideas together, came up with something they thought would work, and worked together to accomplish it.

 

Guess what happened? Within 20 minutes, they had a fire going, and stacked up the rest of the soaked wood in order to dry it out.

 

2) I like your use of that quote at the end, I use it all the time in my class. However, the point I am trying to make in this thread is that there should always be the possibility, no matter how small, of alternate methods of survival. Don't have matches? Use a friction-plow. Don't have a raincoat? Drape a tarp around yourself, or, failing that, cover yourself in sheets of birchbark. Don't have shoes? Cut chunks out of a tire/tree bark, and tie them to your feet with rope/cordage. etc etc etc 

 

Survival should be based on "ingenuity  and will to survive" (improvisation of equipment, using equipment for multiple tasks, etc) first, then equipment second.

[chickenmcfuggits 49]

I take umbrage with the "moron" comment. The exercise was done in order to prove the point that fires can be successfully made when in the rain or otherwise inclement weather. I soaked the wood to represent the wood being soaked by rain, because it hadn't rained in 4 days during the middle of a New England summer.

 

Want to know how my students succeeded? (And, in fact, were the sole group that passed the course over the entire summer?) They used critical thinking skills, AKA tried different things out. The larger pieces were split into quarters using a knife, so that they would both dry out faster and have more surface area exposed to the flame.  The kindling had the wet bark layer scraped off, then split in half so it would do the same as above. The Tinder was stuffed next to each members groin and armpit, so that their body heat would dry it out.  All this without me suggesting anything. They just pooled ideas together, came up with something they thought would work, and worked together to accomplish it.

 

Guess what happened? Within 20 minutes, they had a fire going, and stacked up the rest of the soaked wood in order to dry it out.

 

2) I like your use of that quote at the end, I use it all the time in my class. However, the point I am trying to make in this thread is that there should always be the possibility, no matter how small, of alternate methods of survival. Don't have matches? Use a friction-plow. Don't have a raincoat? Drape a tarp around yourself, or, failing that, cover yourself in sheets of birchbark. Don't have shoes? Cut chunks out of a tire/tree bark, and tie them to your feet with rope/cordage. etc etc etc 

 

Survival should be based on "ingenuity  and will to survive" (improvisation of equipment, using equipment for multiple tasks, etc) first, then equipment second.

 

Well, I take umbrage to the fact that you like to underline everything on an internet forum in an attempt to patronize everyone you talk to.

 

And you need to consider, in the context of this game, what it would be like for a common person in czech/russia or where ever instead of assuming that everyone in the world is a wilderness survival teacher/student/guru/expert, apparently like you are and the rest of the internet that knows how to pull up a youtube video or google something.

 

Unless a person is an expert such as yourself (and everyone else on the internet), starting a fire with a few pieces of wood is not easy. I know this, because I don't claim to be an expert on it and its difficult. I work with wood, I am a carpenter by trade, you know what? still difficult.

 

And if you really use the quote "Work harder, not smarter" I really feel sorry for your students, or anyone you deal with on a daily basis. That was sarcasm, the actual quote is the reverse.

 

It's really a moot point anyways, since this game isn't a bear grylls/whyherro/mcguyver guide to using sticks for creating everything you need in life. Its a zombie apocalypse survival game, the survivors aren't survivors because they know how to start a fire without matches... they are survivors because they're immune to the zed infection. I feel like in your attempt to prove how adept you are at linking youtube videos and rubbing sticks together, you forgot just what game we're talking about here.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Chzy

[soulfirez 901]

For the love of god MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO SURVIVE IN A SURVIVAL SITUATION... How can i say this well quite easily atleast once a month the local cops come knock on my door and ask me to round up what workers i have in town to jump in our 4wheel drives ( which are equiped with full survival gear as i own and run a fencing company doing fencing in the MIDDLE OF BUTT FUCK NOWHERE for the mines.

 

I often take my hunting dogs with me as in many of the cases these people are so fucking dumb when they have broken down crashed run off road( dirt tracks are roads here) they have left there vehicles behind (which can be the only source of shade in many cases for kilometers) to wander through an arid zone where temps sit around 50 c plus. They do not bring water ( or sufficient water) , the last couple i rescued were americans who had wandered off from there vehicle and had stripped down to there underware because its so hot ( the worst thing you can do ). If it hadnt been for the great nose of my dog mayhem they would be dead...

 

I have had to rescue Australians , germans dutch finns swiss kiwi,s americans canadians.

 

These people head into a region even the aboriginals avoid because its so hard to survive in , and they go unprepared with 0 understanding of what to do if things go wrong.

 

So yes i fully believe a great portion of the general population thrown in a cold enviroment in the rain with no MODERN METHOD OF STARTING A FIRE WOULD FUCKEN FREEZE TO DEATH...

[mugur 123]

i think this thread went really wrong actually.

not to mention that i can find matches no matter where i look. tons of them...

[DeatHTaX 1217]

How to make and use a friction-plow

 

 

How to make and use a hand-spindle

 

 

Holy shit, guys, that was so hard. I can't imagine how someone wouldn't at least think about rubbing two sticks together! Guess I'm fucked without any matches!

 

Seriously...sometimes I think you forget this is a GAME lol.