Books

[Yawdarious 30]

Short post.

So crating things like a pure survivalist or trained soldier, most people reply with normal people don't know how to do all that blah blah blah. Well what if books could teach you to say, make rope from grass, sew a =insert clothing item= and so on. Bad idea or good? Not to mention this gives books a proper use.

[rickyriot 1009]

It's effectively called a "skills tree".

 

While I definitely do not want DayZ to turn into an RPG, I do think for the more advanced tasks (can you just jump into a helicopter and fly it without any training/manual?) you should need some form of training. Whether you get this from information in game or via repeatedly doing a task I am unsure. 

 

Certainly providing a skill tree would add a level of value to your character than just the loot you carry so people may be less inclined to engage in fire fights or if they do the stakes of losing would be much greater than just a respawn.

[Karmaterror 982]

I made a very similar suggestion a while ago, and with them mentioning "soft skills" in the roadmap I hope they go this route.

 

The way I had it was you could learn to do something from reading a book for a while, and it would show as a status in your inv (like hunger) then degrade over time until when you try to do it it says "you cannot remember how  t do this" and you have to read the book for a while again.

 

If someone had a rare book, it could be passed around the group to get everyone trained up. Maybe would be cool if with the book in hands, and you on full green for the skill to get a "teach*insert skill here*" context menu option. Then its much reduced time to learn the skill for a friend. Also would promote interaction and teamplay, if only 2 of you are trained to fix helos....and the guy with the book is offline, you best keep those 2 safe  

 

I could see it giving them a purpose and making them valuable, also gives survival a knowledge aspect, after all....knowledge is power! :)

Edited December 6, 2014 by Karmaterror

[LoveAffair 329]

I like it , And they can add a new Library building too.

[rickyriot 1009]

I could see it giving them a purpose and making them valuable, also gives survival a knowledge aspect, after all....knowledge is power! :)

 

Nice expansion on the idea. Many games have skill trees, few have transferable skills.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Nice expansion on the idea. Many games have skill trees, few have transferable skills.

This would also let us interact with other players in a meaningful way. IRL, if someone had a useful skill (carpentry, medicine, etc etc etc), they would usually attract students, who would pay for the service of being taught this skill. This was where guilds (and, by proxy, modern trade unions) would come in. Apprentices would pay to learn basic skills from a Master. Once they learned enough, they would become Journeymen, and work for the Master in his shop. Once they knew enough, they would present a demonstration of their skills, called a "Master Piece" (where we get the modern term and meaning from), which could be a painting, forged piece of metal, building, etc etc etc. The other Masters of the specific Guild would judge the piece, and if they were good enough, they earned their own Master title, and could open their own shop.

 

Something similar could work in Day Z. You could learn a skill at the basic level by reading books, but in order to advance, you've got to practice. Receiving tutelage from someone better in the skill makes you learn faster. For example: one clan has a guy with a really high skill in Medicine. Other clans trade them goods so they can apprentice some of their guys to the doctor. The apprentices help the doctor out with surgeries, treating patients, etc, then get good enough to be called Doctors on their own. Same thing would work with Vehicle Mechanics, or Pilots, etc etc etc.

 

Having both skills in general as well as learning skills from others would both be realistic and  add very interesting options for player interaction.

[rickyriot 1009]

Something similar could work in Day Z. You could learn a skill at the basic level by reading books, but in order to advance, you've got to practice. Receiving tutelage from someone better in the skill makes you learn faster. For example: one clan has a guy with a really high skill in Medicine. Other clans trade them goods so they can apprentice some of their guys to the doctor. The apprentices help the doctor out with surgeries, treating patients, etc, then get good enough to be called Doctors on their own. Same thing would work with Vehicle Mechanics, or Pilots, etc etc etc.

 

Having both skills in general as well as learning skills from others would both be realistic and  add very interesting options for player interaction.

 

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but with the quoted element I think we really need to be careful not to create an RPG. All players should be capable of all skills, I really don't want to see players becoming specialist in one and to the detriment to their other abilities.

 

Essentially RPG classes it the thing I want to avoid. It's a survival game, not role playing.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but with the quoted element I think we really need to be careful not to create an RPG. All players should be capable of all skills, I really don't want to see players becoming specialist in one and to the detriment to their other abilities.

 

Essentially RPG classes it the thing I want to avoid. It's a survival game, not role playing.

Sure, all players should be capable of learning all skills.....with proper experience and training. I don't really see how training and experience with a skill makes an RPG class.

 

Look at real life: I personally am trained in Wilderness Survival, First Aid, and Land Navigation (only the first two should be skills) I can comfortably say that you could drop me literally anywhere east of the Rocky Mountains in the US, and I will survive quite comfortably. Ask me to repair a car (hell, even to identify what is wrong with a car), or to set a bone or stick up a wound, and I will be the first to point to someone actually trained in that discipline. 

 

Specializing in a skill or trade isn't detrimental; it was actually integral to our development as a species. The "Division of Labor" is little more than a fancy way of describing the specialization of certain individuals of a population. Instead of all people being equally average at trades, people would specialize (one guy is really good at making tools, while that girl is awesome at making baskets), saving other members of the community time, so they in turn would specialize in other skills. Therefore, the entire community would be dependent on each other. Specialization is a good thing to do in survival, and is one of the main "Leadership styles" survival lessons focus upon; in a group, each member specializes in a specific area. One guy might focus on firebuilding in adverse conditions, while another guy might focus on 1st Aid, and other might focus on effective shelterbuilding strategies.

 

That is actually what happened with my last Wilderness Survival class; all the students focused on a specific area, and let the others focus on the other aspects. This, in fact, was AMAZING. Since they "specialized" in one aspect, they were more confident in their abilities in that aspect, and knowing their mates would cover the rest let them trust each other more readily. Most WS training is not for the actual skills, but to avoid panic and fear, and confidence in yourself and in your group is the best way to avoid becoming afraid. They had 7 guys in the group, and within an hour of starting the exam (an overnight event involving dropping them, blindfolded, into a pond at night, where they have to find each other, then they have to find a number of 1st Aid subjects, then build a fire and shelter and wait for pickup. We have a little scenario and backstory, and everyone has a lot of fun. It is, however, a VERY difficult course. Most groups fail because they forget their training and freak out.) , two guys had a roaring fire, with a fire wall, two more had a nice, insulated shelter for them and the 3 subjects, and the final 3 guys had the 1st Aid subjects "stablized". They were the only group to earn their badge that summer.

 

Arguably, I see little-to-no difference between an actual survival game and an RPG. RPG stands for "Role Playing Game", and that, almost objectively, is what we are doing; playing a role in post-apocalyptic Chernarus. So, sure, people would be able to use all skills, but that doesn't mean they will be any good. I could, feasibly, if the situation was dire enough, be pressured into attempting to set a broken bone, or to stitch up a wound, but it definitely wouldn't be nearly as good as a doctor's efforts. I probably would stitch the fibers of muscle together crooked, causing damage to the healing muscle, and it probably would get infected far easier, due to the stitching not being tight/close enough, etc etc etc. Or, with a car, if the problem is basic enough (engine coolant is depleted, battery is dead), I might (and have) try to fix it on my own, but if the problem is anything more complicated than that, I have no effing idea what to do, and this is with the manual.

 

This is I like the term "skill books", even if it seems rather arcadey. Having a "skill book" (maintenance manual for a vehicle, which could be found in the glove compartment, 1st Aid manual, which could be found in a 1st Aid kit), allows any character to use any skill at the most basic level. There, now everyone can use the skill. However, they will not be as effective as someone practiced, proficient, and trained. As someone gets more skill in a "proficiency" (proficiency works better than skill, as it implies training and mastery over basic knowledge), they get more effects, ranging from increased efficiency to faster use:

• Medicine: treats wounds (stitches wounds closed, minor surgery,sets broken bones, etc etc) faster, lessens chance for infection, identifies diseases, etc. Someone with "Basic 1st Aid", on the other hand, can stop blood loss, and splint a broken limb (different from "setting the bone"), and that is about it. (That is pretty much what is covered in 1st Aid manuals, anyways)

 

• Mechanic: identifies issues (dead spark plug, broken carburetor (can that break? I dunno), slipped disc pads, etc) faster and more accurately, can replace the part given a spare (cannibalized from a wreck, perhaps?), or "jury-rig" it given basic materals. Someone with just the manual, on the other hand, could identify the general problem ("the engine is growling", "oil is dripping from X", "Steam is leaking from under the hood", etc etc etc), and have to peruse the manual in order to fix the problem. No "jury rigging". Mechanic should require a toolbox, with high proficiency "tests" requiring a more complex toolbox. (small toolbox can fit under a seat, or in the bed. A complex toolbox needs to be kept in a garage, etc etc)

 

• Survival: Can identify edible plants (AND poisonous ones), track animals, find direction using the sun/stars, build traps, build fires easier in wet/windy conditions (I am proficient enough in firebuilding, which is actually more complex than "build teepee, light match", to comfortably build a fire in a rainstorm or heavy winds. It takes some know-how, and proper firewood identification) Someone with a survival manual, or plant/animal ID guide, can build basic traps, build "basic" (in reality, different fire "lays" (methods of building fires), have different "effects", for lack of a better word....) fires, etc etc.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Whyherro123

[Rags! 1966]

I think this is a bad idea. 

 

All characters in a game like DayZ should be completely equal in every way. Player skill and resourcefulness should be the defining factors of the survival competition, not "hopefully I can find this certain book to teach my character something that I already know as a player". 

[Whyherro123 2283]

I think this is a bad idea. 

 

All characters in a game like DayZ should be completely equal in every way. Player skill and resourcefulness should be the defining factors of the survival competition, not "hopefully I can find this certain book to teach my character something that I already know as a player". 

I disagree. People in real life do not have exactly the same knowledge. 

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

All I want is to have +25 quickscopeleetsniperskillzheadshot

[goofert 11]

please don't turn this into a rpg-thing.... Each player should have the same possibilities. The only difference should be the person infront of the monitor.

[Whyherro123 2283]

please don't turn this into a rpg-thing.... Each player should have the same possibilities. The only difference should be the person infront of the monitor.

Again, this game IS an RPG. Are you, yourself, running around Chernarus? No? Then you are playing a role-playing game.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

 

Why should each player have the same responsibilities? It strains my already-pushed sense of disbelief if each and every character is a top-notch surgeon, first-class mechanic on multiple and varies types of vehicles, a certified operator of those vehicles, as well as being a Spec-Ops-qualified marksman, all at the same time.

 

This game needs realism, at the very least a nod towards it . The above? Not realism. The above is arcade-style gameplay that promotes instant gratification.

 

What seems more satisfying? Driving around a truck that you yourself repaired through skill, dedication to the task, and hard work, or merely stumbling across the truck, server-hopping for some interchangeable parts, and doing something literally every player in the game can do with a modicum of effort? Which is more realistic, or, for those who will complain about "this being just a game", authentic?

 

For a survival game, you lot sure don't want actual survival. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Whyherro123

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Again, this game IS an RPG. Are you, yourself, running around Chernarus? No? Then you are playing a role-playing game.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

 

Why should each player have the same responsibilities? It strains my already-pushed sense of disbelief if each and every character is a top-notch surgeon, first-class mechanic on multiple and varies types of vehicles, a certified operator of those vehicles, as well as being a Spec-Ops-qualified marksman, all at the same time.

 

This game needs realism, at the very least a nod towards it . The above? Not realism. The above is arcade-style gameplay that promotes instant gratification.

 

What seems more satisfying? Driving around a truck that you yourself repaired through skill, dedication to the task, and hard work, or merely stumbling across the truck, server-hopping for some interchangeable parts, and doing something literally every player in the game can do with a modicum of effort? Which is more realistic, or, for those who will complain about "this being just a game", authentic?

 

For a survival game, you lot sure don't want actual survival. 

Because with this being primarily a shooter, it's for balance purposes.  No way in hell should someone get bonuses over someone else

[Whyherro123 2283]

Because with this being primarily a shooter, it's for balance purposes.  No way in hell should someone get bonuses over someone else

If they work at it, they should. 

 

And, when was this game decided to be a shooter? It is like that now because there is little else to do.

 

EDIT #2: Players already get bonuses over others, if only unofficially and/or "illegally". Server-hoppers jumping around for gear certainly have bonuses over those who don't. People who practice with the game get better at it, often to the detriment of those who don't. Etc etc etc.

 

EDIT: this is taken directly from the Steam store page

 

Title: DayZ

Genre: Action, Indie, Massively Multiplayer, Early Access

Developer: Bohemia Interactive 

Publisher: Bohemia Interactive

Release Date: Dec 16, 2013

 

 

Nowhere does it say "FPS" or "Shooter" in the genre subsection. The closest there is is "action", which in and of itself is a pretty broad descriptor. 

 

Just because you can play it as a (pretty poorly optimized) shooter, doesn't mean that is all it is, nor all it will be.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Whyherro123

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

If they work at it, they should. 

 

And, when was this game decided to be a shooter? It is like that now because there is little else to do.

It's still a shooter tho.  The moment you alter anything other than the person behind the computers ability to aim or do anything this game will turn into a pile of dog turd

[goofert 11]

It is a sandbox multiplayer where everybody should be able to do what they want. But please stay away with things like Levels, skill, and certain abilities.... Medical stuff? Well, everyone should be able to bandage a wound...

Driving cars? ;)

Flying helicopters? You don't learn this from books. You have to practice, and that is a task for the player, not the character.

(Ps. I agree though, controlling a heli in DayZ should be quite challenging for the player)

[Karmaterror 982]

It is a sandbox multiplayer where everybody should be able to do what they want. But please stay away with things like Levels, skill, and certain abilities.... Medical stuff? Well, everyone should be able to bandage a wound...

Driving cars? ;)

Flying helicopters? You don't learn this from books. You have to practice, and that is a task for the player, not the character.

(Ps. I agree though, controlling a heli in DayZ should be quite challenging for the player)

 

The things i think we could learn from books would include

 

Helicopter repair

Vehicle repair (things like fuelling and wheels changes would require no skill)

Skinning and gutting animals

Crafting Bows

 

Sure theres more i cant think of right now. But noones saying leveling up or any of that crap, i wouldnt want that either. Just gaining the ability to do something an average joe wouldnt know in a realistic way, like reading how to do it :)

 

PS im for any skill you earn degrading over time, i think its a great way to maintain a balance in player skills and not let anyone become too overpowered

Edited December 6, 2014 by Karmaterror

[Whyherro123 2283]

It is a sandbox multiplayer where everybody should be able to do what they want. But please stay away with things like Levels, skill, and certain abilities.... Medical stuff? Well, everyone should be able to bandage a wound...

Driving cars? ;)

Flying helicopters? You don't learn this from books. You have to practice, and that is a task for the player, not the character.

(Ps. I agree though, controlling a heli in DayZ should be quite challenging for the player)

I am coming from a realism/authentic standpoint, which the game is moving more and more towards as "1.0 build" looms on the horizon.

 

You see, when you get shot or stabbed, you don't "just bandage it". You have an actually-decently-sized-hole in you, leaking blood. You have to actually stop the bleeding, which usually takes the form of sutures (stitches). This is rather difficult to do correctly, and rather simple to do wrong. If you stitch the muscle fibers together crookedly, have fun having a crippled limb, as the muscle cannot contract to full capacity! Don't clean it out properly initially, or keep it clean (difficult at the best of times in a survival situation), or use less-than-perfectly-sterile instruments? Enjoy your life-threatening infection!

 

Medicine is difficult. Which is why courses are offered in the most basic of basics, and to do literally anything more advanced (legally, of course. Nothing is preventing you from sewing up yourself like a dumbass.) , you need to get actual training, which is taught to you by other people, more skilled than you. Minor surgery, in order to remove things like bullet fragments and sew up internal injuries? YEARS of medical training. Now, I am not proposing that it take in-game years to be able to save your buddy, but instead make it more complex than just tying a ripped-up shirt about a wound and trucking onwards. Players "unskilled in medicine" will not be able to do this as effectively as others who are more skilled. They can try, but they will probably fuck up and kill their friend. So, if they work at it, they get to the point where they have to worry about fucking up less. Notice that I didn't say "never", because this is still a post-apocalyptic environment. Death is the rule, survival is the exception.

 

People on this forum have been clamoring for a more advanced, more "authentic" medical system for a while now. Don't expect a dirty rag to keep you from dying once the game gets finished.

 

Notice how I never said "driving a car" in my list. And note, in real life, you still need training to safely operate a car. In-game, driving a car should be simple, at least with an automatic. With a standard, which is probably FAR more common in Chernarus, you should have to manually shift through the gears. Boom, driving skill entirely based on the player.

 

I also DON'T, and NEVER, wanted helicopters included in Day Z for exactly that reason. They make the game trivial, and any group that has one will bend the rest of the server over a metaphorical barrel and have their creepy way with them. If a "survival game" has vehicles where you can literally fly across the map in less than 5 minutes, is it really a survival game? The amount of maintenance, etc etc required for a helicopter is INSANE. Where would you learn it? If you fuck up the avionics, you DIE. Painfully. How would you learn to fly? Enjoy wasting fuel for a vehicle you will never be able to "afford" to use.

 

At least you can learn how to fix a car or a truck through reading and hard work.  Tell me, could you diagnose what is wrong with a motor vehicle and fix it? For most of the population, beyond the basic stuff, probably not. (If you are actually a mechanic, then good for you, but you are demonstrating the exact point I made in my first post: specialization) Now, howabout in a post-apocalyptic environment, where all of the rest of the mechanics are dead? You tinker with it, and learn how to fix things over time. An "unskilled player" would be able to fix their vehicle, just not as effectively as someone experienced. 

And, you too could be as experienced as that master mechanic, it just would take some work. Sorry if that takes away from your "loot n' shoot" time.

 

Realistic/authentic > arcade gameplay. Sorry, my opinion is what it is.

[Whyherro123 2283]

The things i think we could learn from books would include

 

Helicopter repair

Vehicle repair (things like fuelling and wheels changes would require no skill)

Skinning and gutting animals

Crafting Bows

 

Sure theres more i cant think of right now. But noones saying leveling up or any of that crap, i wouldnt want that either. Just gaining the ability to do something an average joe wouldnt know in a realistic way, like reading how to do it :)

 

PS im for any skill you earn degrading over time, i think its a great way to maintain a balance in player skills and not let anyone become too overpowered

Pretty much. There wouldn't be any "levels" in my system. No -ding ding- "MASTER MECHANIC REACHED" bullshit. You just become....more proficient. The difference between the auto-shop kid in high school, and the old mechanic that has been doing it for a long time. They both, given the same tools and time, could fix that car. One just does it.....better (faster, more efficiently, etc)

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

I am coming from a realism/authentic standpoint, which the game is moving more and more towards as "1.0 build" looms on the horizon.

 

You see, when you get shot or stabbed, you don't "just bandage it". You have an actually-decently-sized-hole in you, leaking blood. You have to actually stop the bleeding, which usually takes the form of sutures (stitches). This is rather difficult to do correctly, and rather simple to do wrong. If you stitch the muscle fibers together crookedly, have fun having a crippled limb, as the muscle cannot contract to full capacity! Don't clean it out properly initially, or keep it clean (difficult at the best of times in a survival situation), or use less-than-perfectly-sterile instruments? Enjoy your life-threatening infection!

 

Medicine is difficult. Which is why courses are offered in the most basic of basics, and to do literally anything more advanced (legally, of course. Nothing is preventing you from sewing up yourself like a dumbass.) , you need to get actual training, which is taught to you by other people, more skilled than you. Minor surgery, in order to remove things like bullet fragments and sew up internal injuries? YEARS of medical training. Now, I am not proposing that it take in-game years to be able to save your buddy, but instead make it more complex than just tying a ripped-up shirt about a wound and trucking onwards. Players "unskilled in medicine" will not be able to do this as effectively as others who are more skilled. They can try, but they will probably fuck up and kill their friend. So, if they work at it, they get to the point where they have to worry about fucking up less. Notice that I didn't say "never", because this is still a post-apocalyptic environment. Death is the rule, survival is the exception.

 

People on this forum have been clamoring for a more advanced, more "authentic" medical system for a while now. Don't expect a dirty rag to keep you from dying once the game gets finished.

 

Notice how I never said "driving a car" in my list. And note, in real life, you still need training to safely operate a car. In-game, driving a car should be simple, at least with an automatic. With a standard, which is probably FAR more common in Chernarus, you should have to manually shift through the gears. Boom, driving skill entirely based on the player.

 

I also DON'T, and NEVER, wanted helicopters included in Day Z for exactly that reason. They make the game trivial, and any group that has one will bend the rest of the server over a metaphorical barrel and have their creepy way with them. If a "survival game" has vehicles where you can literally fly across the map in less than 5 minutes, is it really a survival game? The amount of maintenance, etc etc required for a helicopter is INSANE. Where would you learn it? If you fuck up the avionics, you DIE. Painfully. How would you learn to fly? Enjoy wasting fuel for a vehicle you will never be able to "afford" to use.

 

At least you can learn how to fix a car or a truck through reading and hard work.  Tell me, could you diagnose what is wrong with a motor vehicle and fix it? For most of the population, beyond the basic stuff, probably not. (If you are actually a mechanic, then good for you, but you are demonstrating the exact point I made in my first post: specialization) Now, howabout in a post-apocalyptic environment, where all of the rest of the mechanics are dead? You tinker with it, and learn how to fix things over time. An "unskilled player" would be able to fix their vehicle, just not as effectively as someone experienced. 

And, you too could be as experienced as that master mechanic, it just would take some work. Sorry if that takes away from your "loot n' shoot" time.

 

Realistic/authentic > arcade gameplay. Sorry, my opinion is what it is.

Believe me I get that but to hell with skills.  That's just bad for gameplay.  Finding and using the right tools and equipment is all that should be needed.  I'm no doctor but I can tell you I can easily stitch up a wound with a needle and thread, will it be pretty, no, but I also know that the wound needs to be cleans and disinfected, I don't need a book to tell me that.  What I need is the proper tools and that's all we should need.  

 

Same with vehicles, more than requiring a hammer and screw driver.  Again, needing the proper tools.  Not books.

 

If anything, the only thing a book should tell you is what tools you need and not give you the knowledge.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Caboose187

[Rags! 1966]

d

 

 

PS im for any skill you earn degrading over time, i think its a great way to maintain a balance in player skills and not let anyone become too overpowered

 

 

The only way to balance people in DayZ is to ensure everybody starts off the same. The things you find and the places you go will determine how powerful you get. This isn't Battlefield. This isn't Call of Duty. Balance doesn't exist in DayZ because the whole point of looting and gearing up is to slowly shift the balance of power in your favor. 

[smatdude13 5]

What if there was like a tree of 5 different skills(non upgrade able), and every time you respawn your charter has a a different skill. (Like tree climbing or something.)I mean, like your guy isn't the same person, because your last person just got killed. Kind of like each life is a different person. Maybe instead of using the name you gave your character, your character is given a random name. and that is what people in the game will see when they check your pulse or whatever. You could even go as far a identify each new person you are as a what they do, such as how much they have to eat to be full and such. Like a soldier, they would probably have a larger metabolism than a civilian.  I don't know. Just a random idea I thought of. 

Edited December 7, 2014 by smatdude13

[Karmaterror 982]

d

 

 

 

The only way to balance people in DayZ is to ensure everybody starts off the same. The things you find and the places you go will determine how powerful you get. This isn't Battlefield. This isn't Call of Duty. Balance doesn't exist in DayZ because the whole point of looting and gearing up is to slowly shift the balance of power in your favor. 

 

That's exactly what books and skills would work....we would all start off the same and what we find would determine how powerfull you are. If the whole point is to slowly shift the balance of power in your favour then skills from books fits perfectly. Don't see how it not being BF or COD is at all relevant, they don't have skills you learn from books. They have levelling systems that I said (and in the post you quoted) that I wouldn't want anything like that.

 

You would shift the balance in your favour.....as you do with gaining the energised ststus, but as with everything dayz getting it is one thing, maintaining it another. That's why I think they should degrade, nothings forever in dayz, why should skills be?

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Well soft skills are listed on the roadmap and are coming so arguing about skills itself is pointless.  However, books I am against.  Anything that you read to level up a skill, hell no.