Realistic damage for the 5.45x39 Ammo/Weapons

[zandor 0]

Hello guys.

 

This is my first post ever since joining the Dayz Wagon in early 2012.

 

What i'm suggesting here is to provide the 5.45x39 cartridge some legit damage.

 

It's the "Poison Bullet". It creates wound channels that are worse than a STANDARD 5.56 bullet. Why should it be doing less damage than the 5.56? It's not logical at all. It may be less accurate (Why even?), have less range since there is less propellant in the cartridge, but never in hell should have less damage.

Could you, devs, please explain why the 5.45x39 is less powerfull in the mod, and now in the Standalone too?

 

 

Thanks for this game. Even in this stage of the alpha, I enjoy it a lot!

 

 

Zandor

[-Gews- 7443]

It's the "Poison Bullet". It creates wound channels that are worse than a STANDARD 5.56 bullet. Why should it be doing less damage than the 5.56?

 

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/ak74_wounding_potential.pdf

[zandor 0]

Gews, the sources are from 1980's, please provide me a most recent documents, both the standard 5.56 and 5.45 have evolved since...

Since the 5.45 ammo is not dated ingame, we can assume it's not the oldest ones, especially since the packaging of the boxes come from aftermarket suppliers...

Sources differ regarding to the ammo's potential. Some do say that it causes huge "temporary" channels and also permanent ones. It should at least be equal. Not inferior.

 

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/figure6.gif

Edited November 11, 2014 by Zandor

[-Gews- 7443]

Gews, the sources are from 1980's, please provide me a most recent documents, both the standard 5.56 and 5.45 have evolved since...

Since the 5.45 ammo is not dated ingame, we can assume it's not the oldest ones, especially since the packaging of the boxes come from aftermarket suppliers...

Sources differ regarding to the ammo's potential. Some do say that it causes huge "temporary" channels and also permanent ones. It should at least be equal. Not inferior.

 

Chernarus used old AK-74, one can assume they used older and still very common 7N6 as well. Newer 7N10 is not designed to fragment either, is instead designed to penetrate more armor, so effect on unarmored targets would likely be very similar. In ARMA 2 guns were given damage based on muzzle energy:

 

5,45 mm 7N6 AK-74: 3,4 g @ 900 m/s = 1377 J

5,56 mm M855 M16A2: 4,0 g @ 940 m/s = 1767 J

 

1377/1767 = 0.78 so the AK-74 was given (7/8)^2 = 77% the damage (round numbers). But following the same simple metric AK-74 should be given 90% of the damage in SA (swap M4A1 figures for M16A2). But that's not a great way to do it.

 

5,56 is more powerful, 5.56 fragments, 5.45 does not, both rounds tumble, Fackler claims 5,45 7N6 "causes relatively nondramatic wounds", the famous "wound profiles" plastered across the internet are in favor of 5,56. The evidence so far does not support 5,45, only some various unverified anecdotes here and there about a deer someone shot, or Afghanistan "poison bullets" (which, haha, some people claim is because the target died days after), the exact same type of things which are said for (and against) 5,56. So making it stronger than 5,56? No justification.

 

In ARMA 2 I agree it was too weak. And it's about the same in standalone, 19% less damage. In ARMA 2 I would say it's still too weak, but people seem to die much easier in standalone. I think around 85-90% would be fair. The "damage" of the round should not be such an important factor so differences should be toned down, things like accuracy and reliability are more important and this should apply in game as well. Compared to M4A1, AK-74/M should be slightly less accurate, less damage, less recoil/better controllability, less attachments/chance of finding them, more reliable, easier to find ammunition. The two guns should be at the point where it is mostly personal preference between them, not a clear winner which makes the loser half useless by comparison, like in ARMA 2 / DayZ mod.

[-Gews- 7443]

[...] especially since the packaging of the boxes come from aftermarket suppliers...

 

Oh, and speaking of this... I choose to ignore the boxes. I think they have made some poor choices here and the devs don't stick to what is written on the boxes anyways. I think they only care about making each box look distinctive. For example:

 

-9x19mm is "125 grain tactical hollowpoint" or some such... which means it should be more damaging than even the .45 ACP, which is merely "230 GR FMJ".  :huh:

 

-7.62x39mm is also "123 GR HP", which would make it way more powerful than it is now, perhaps more damaging than even Mosin (assuming HP is constructed properly unlike Brown Bear).  :huh:

 

-12 gauge buckshot is based on Critical Defense, which is a unique round... 1600 fps (way faster than any normal buckshot) and only 8 pellets (in-game fires 11 pellets). Plus it has a special wad which reduces spread far more than any normal buckshot round (shotgun in game? spreads 2x more than any normal buckshot round). And to make things worse, the shells themselves say "1140 fps" which is much slower than regular buckshot, "low recoil" velocity.  :huh:

 

-5.45x39 is 60 GR instead of military issue. Why? The AK-74s come from the military, surely they do not buy some small boxes of commercial 60 gr ammunition, where's the military 7NX?  :huh:

 

And with the last one, Wolf 60 gr FMJ is not designed to not fragment either, target shooting ammunition.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Gews

[Evil Minion 943]

The "health damage" value in DayZ is roughly determined by impact force and here the rifle cartridges seem to be consistent with their real life counterparts. However because barrel-length is a non-factor right now handguns tend to deal more damage than they should actually do (while .357 Magnum can hit harder than 5.56x45mm you need a longer rifle barrel to get there). And .45 ACP is just off - being as strong as .357 Magnum when it actually should be much closer to 9mm Parabellum.

 

Wound ballistics are more closely related to blood damage which is at the moment simply proportional to health damage. It would be interesting to increase the blood damage relative to health damage for high velocity ammo to simulate those.

[agouti 105]

I'd like to see the ability of the engine to accurately depict: penetration, expansion, yawing, and fragmentation. Perhaps even secondary fragmentation caused by hitting bone. The 5.56 and some 7.62 Nato are notorious for fragmenting, which clearly does the more damage than the relatively neater holes the 7.62 rimmed. Btw, the poison bullet stuff is just soviet propaganda.

[zandor 0]

Thanks for the answers guys.

With the bullet types, the 7N6 is the one you talk about, but since 1987 (Could have taken a bit longer) the 7N6M replaced the 7N6 which was composed of an unharded penetrator, the 7N6M is superior to this cartridge with a hardened penetrator.

5.56 isn't supposed to be less powerfull. It's not the problem here, it's simply different.
 

 

 

In ARMA 2 I agree it was too weak. And it's about the same in standalone, 19% less damage. In ARMA 2 I would say it's still too weak, but people seem to die much easier in standalone. I think around 85-90% would be fair. The "damage" of the round should not be such an important factor so differences should be toned down, things like accuracy and reliability are more important and this should apply in game as well. Compared to M4A1, AK-74/M should be slightly less accurate, less damage, less recoil/better controllability, less attachments/chance of finding them, more reliable, easier to find ammunition. The two guns should be at the point where it is mostly personal preference between them, not a clear winner which makes the loser half useless by comparison, like in ARMA 2 / DayZ mod.

 

You are pretty right on this part.But sources and experts differ about the rounds power. It should be equal and follow your principle:damage should not be an important factor.

[-Gews- 7443]

Some more pictures.

7,62x39, 5,45x39, 5,56x45.

 

Leg wound,

1. 7,62x39

2. 5,56x45

3. 5,45x39

Thigh wound, 5,45x39 left, 5,56x45 right

Recovered 5,45 bullet

Recovered 5,56 bullets

[agentstaple 29]

How do you guys know the damages of the guns? On the dayz wiki they all have the same values -.-

[zandor 0]

Thank Gews, your pictures seem to acknowledge the fact that the bullet is not the weakling in the ammo selection it is to be. It's way better on soft targets, but less powerfull and stopping power as the 5.56 that should like pictured, provide more stopping power and break bones/knock people unconscious. 5.45 seems to get more penetration, but again, thoses balistic gels and charts are from the "old" 7N6 and not from the 7N6M Which as even more penetration.

 

Can't seem to find good charts about this one...