gut feelings

[doctorbadsign 645]

if a person doesnt really have a kill count or much to go off of. your guy would just say he doesnt know what to think of him. they could make a few different levels of how bad or good a person is like 1 seems a little shady 2 somethings definatly off with this guy 3. im getting a real diliverance vibe.. you could also gain points to redeem yourself, say if someone is spawn snipeing and is more on the evil side and you sneek up an cap him you would get props for takeing him out.

 

So I could torture and murder 10 fresh spawns, go bandit hunting and I'm back to being a good person?

 

Morality isn't that simplistic. And a moral system based upon killing most definitely has problems.

 

The reason I like DayZ is because it forces me to make moral decisions and puts me into a lot of grey areas. Good does not equal killing bad people and bad does not equal killing innocent people. 

[General Zod 1118]

And how does the game tell the difference between offensive and defensive kill ? What if some fresh spawn attacked me (which happens a lot) and I had to drop him ? All the game will see is a kill, and add to my bandit status. What if someone tires to rob me and I kill him not to lose all my stuff ? Unless you will add complex system to recognize who is the attacker, which I don't think it's possible. 

 

Your system like it was said above is black and white while in reality there is no black and white, it's all grey and the line between good guy and a bad guy is very thin. 

[TulaNoyes 5]

So I could torture and murder 10 fresh spawns, go bandit hunting and I'm back to being a good person?

 

Morality isn't that simplistic. And a moral system based upon killing most definitely has problems.

 

The reason I like DayZ is because it forces me to make moral decisions and puts me into a lot of grey areas. Good does not equal killing bad people and bad does not equal killing innocent people. 

if you murder 10 fresh spawns are you really gunna be able to kill enough bandits to redeem yourself? i dont think so. bet you get killed yourself in the process

[TulaNoyes 5]

And how does the game tell the difference between offensive and defensive kill ? What if some fresh spawn attacked me (which happens a lot) and I had to drop him ? All the game will see is a kill, and add to my bandit status. What if someone tires to rob me and I kill him not to lose all my stuff ? Unless you will add complex system to recognize who is the attacker, which I don't think it's possible. 

 

Your system like it was said above is black and white while in reality there is no black and white, it's all grey and the line between good guy and a bad guy is very thin. 

then you just kill the guy and add alittle of bandit status. if you are planing on playing good bad or in the middle if you survive long enough the things you end up doing will even out. yeah the system would be kinda a pain to make...

[General Zod 1118]

And what would the give you the good guy status ? Helping others ? Well than any bandit with few friends might just farm it, get a "this guy seems all right" status and than shoot other in the face because they were mislead into trusting him by this system. 

[TulaNoyes 5]

And what would the give you the good guy status ? Helping others ? Well than any bandit with few friends might just farm it, get a "this guy seems all right" status and than shoot other in the face because they were mislead into trusting him by this system. 

sometimes gut feelings are wrong... lol people will find a way to bypass you cant trust anyone even with the message just thought it would be kinda neat.

[TulaNoyes 5]

could also make it so that if someone is wearing a mask they would be hard to read. someone with good intentions might come up and take off his gas mask or whatever so you could see his face.

[General Zod 1118]

sometimes gut feelings are wrong... lol people will find a way to bypass you cant trust anyone even with the message just thought it would be kinda neat.

If there are ways to farm the good guy status than the system is useless. Which I am against altogether. 

could also make it so that if someone is wearing a mask they would be hard to read. someone with good intentions might come up and take off his gas mask or whatever so you could see his face.

Sure open you menu and take off the mask, effectively disarming yourself for few seconds while he can do whatever he wants to. 

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

I always find these "forcing one playstyle onto others" posts hilarious. The whole damn game is designed in a way there is very little to do other than kill others. By that logic you are forced to shoot everyone you see. How is that for realism? I still think even the simple bandit/hero skin system we had in the mod was pretty good and it just needed more refinement.

[TulaNoyes 5]

If there are ways to farm the good guy status than the system is useless. Which I am against altogether. 

Sure open you menu and take off the mask, effectively disarming yourself for few seconds while he can do whatever he wants to. 

could make it so you can flip up you mask withought going into menu

[TulaNoyes 5]

I always find these "forcing one playstyle onto others" posts hilarious. The whole damn game is designed in a way there is very little to do other than kill others. By that logic you are forced to shoot everyone you see. How is that for realism? I still think even the simple bandit/hero skin system we had in the mod was pretty good and it just needed more refinement.

havent played to long but if the mod was like standalone "call of duty free for all with a few zombies that you have to run around" then i agree anything is better then nothing

[General Zod 1118]

I always find these "forcing one playstyle onto others" posts hilarious. The whole damn game is designed in a way there is very little to do other than kill others. By that logic you are forced to shoot everyone you see. How is that for realism? I still think even the simple bandit/hero skin system we had in the mod was pretty good and it just needed more refinement.

Well it was said here 100 time over that there is too much ammo, too many guns and too much focus on military gear. So far nothing has been done about that. 

And how do you expect people not to be trigger happy when they have 5 x 75 drum mag ? Or 100 mosin rounds ? 

How do expect people not to be trigger happy when zombies are few and not a real danger ? 

 

Once ammunition is scarce, zeds are in hundreds or even thousands, when we actually will struggle to survive than the PvP will become less of a problem. 

There is no need for any humanity systems to punish killers. All we need to do is add actual survival factor to this game.  

Edited October 16, 2014 by General Zod

[doctorbadsign 645]

if you murder 10 fresh spawns are you really gunna be able to kill enough bandits to redeem yourself? i dont think so. bet you get killed yourself in the process

 

My point still stands, a moral system that allows for retribution by killing is flawed as hell.

 

It isn't that black and white. I've killed loads of fresh spawns that attacked me. I would have helped them if they weren't such morons, but alas I killed them to defend myself. Say for the purposes of this discussion I have to do that 3 times in a go on a particularly bad day. Say on the same server there is a guy camping Electro shooting fresh spawns for sport. The system proposed here would say that we are morally equivalent. Everyone knows that is not true.

 

In real life morality is not a meter that is either full or empty, and that can be replenished by doing good things. I can't kill a child in cold blood and then give £1m to charity to make up for it. Nor can I spend my time killing bad people to make up for it.

 

Some would say that killing is always wrong whether it's bad people, innocent people or in self defence. At the end of the day it depends upon your outlook and on a lot of things. DayZ is awesome in that it deals with some heavy moral issues without it being an in-game system. It all happens in the player's head. It should stay that way. I feel like a bad person sometimes in DayZ, I question my actions. I don't want the game to do that for me by saying "you earned the bandit achievement" so to speak.

[Askelon 36]

My point still stands, a moral system that allows for retribution by killing is flawed as hell.

 

It isn't that black and white. I've killed loads of fresh spawns that attacked me. I would have helped them if they weren't such morons, but alas I killed them to defend myself. Say for the purposes of this discussion I have to do that 3 times in a go on a particularly bad day. Say on the same server there is a guy camping Electro shooting fresh spawns for sport. The system proposed here would say that we are morally equivalent. Everyone knows that is not true.

 

In real life morality is not a meter that is either full or empty, and that can be replenished by doing good things. I can't kill a child in cold blood and then give £1m to charity to make up for it. Nor can I spend my time killing bad people to make up for it.

 

Some would say that killing is always wrong whether it's bad people, innocent people or in self defence. At the end of the day it depends upon your outlook and on a lot of things. DayZ is awesome in that it deals with some heavy moral issues without it being an in-game system. It all happens in the player's head. It should stay that way. I feel like a bad person sometimes in DayZ, I question my actions. I don't want the game to do that for me by saying "you earned the bandit achievement" so to speak.

Morality is, as you stated, subjective as well. Players having to question themselves adds dynamics. Some people won't. The devs, I believe, are against the addition of a bandit/hero or Humanity system anyways, so I highly doubt these people will get anywhere with their requests.

[UltimateGentleman 355]

And how does the game tell the difference between offensive and defensive kill ? What if some fresh spawn attacked me (which happens a lot) and I had to drop him ? All the game will see is a kill, and add to my bandit status. What if someone tires to rob me and I kill him not to lose all my stuff ? Unless you will add complex system to recognize who is the attacker, which I don't think it's possible. 

 

Your system like it was said above is black and white while in reality there is no black and white, it's all grey and the line between good guy and a bad guy is very thin. 

 

Like I said they could make a system that records the things people do.

 

If a fresh spawn raises their fists, recorded.

If said fresh spawn punches someone, recorded.

If they are then killed the above information = defensive kill.

 

Same for shooting.

The server must already record details like these to some extent so I don't think it would be that complicated to make a system like this. It knows already if person A fires their gun and where the bullet lands and it knows person B is around where the bullet landed, it doesn't know that person A was shooting at person B but the system I envision would link these so it then "knows" that person A is trying to kill person B and if they succeed it's recorded as an offensive kill.

There would be mistakes, definitely but I'm sure they could get it to a point where it worked really well.

 

I'm not sure on "good guy" status though I'm more inclined to it being alright, can't tell, sketchy, definitely bad, Satan.

Bit dumb to meet someone and have it be like "This guy is Jesus reborn!"

That way people can't bullshit it to get Jesus status then turn evil. They should just get "alright" status from giving people things and if they really are Jesus level good well, I'm sure they'll show it just like Satan level dudes will probably kill you before you get that classification :P

(obviously I'm joking with the whole Jesus/Satan thing but you get the idea)

 

So yeah it should refer to mostly neutral and bad people not "good" because any good action like giving things, people could just spam until they have 1000 good karma and can do whatever they want.

I mean take 2 guys, what's to stop them swapping inventories 1 item at a time and ramping up their good karma/whatever?

 

If on the good side of things all you get is "alright" then there's not much point spamming such a thing, you still could but you have almost no chance of meeting a group or pair and not being killed anyway unless they take pity on you or you kill  first.

 

 

DayZ is awesome in that it deals with some heavy moral issues without it being an in-game system. It all happens in the player's head. It should stay that way. I feel like a bad person sometimes in DayZ, I question my actions.

Do you honestly think no more than a handful of people think that way?

 

There are no moral issues dealt with in the game at all, certainly not in players heads hardly anyone stops and thinks "I should help that guy" or have you not played the game much? You get the odd nonviolent person but walk up to anyone with guns and they'll shoot you unless you're a fresh spawn, even then they'll most likely shoot you...

The players themselves have ruined all moral tension in the game, sooner or later everyone has the "fuck it" moment if they were ever helpful.

[General Zod 1118]

Like I said they could make a system that records the things people do.

 

If a fresh spawn raises their fists, recorded.

If said fresh spawn punches someone, recorded.

If they are then killed the above information = defensive kill.

 

Same for shooting.

The server must already record details like these to some extent so I don't think it would be that complicated to make a system like this. It knows already if person A fires their gun and where the bullet lands and it knows person B is around where the bullet landed, it doesn't know that person A was shooting at person B but the system I envision would link these so it then "knows" that person A is trying to kill person B and if they succeed it's recorded as an offensive kill.

There would be mistakes, definitely but I'm sure they could get it to a point where it worked really well.

 

Overly complex system for something that is not a problem. And will be even more of not a problem when proper survival is introduced. 

And that's on top of ridiculous amount of data that will have to be recorder and analysed for over 2 million players. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by General Zod

[doctorbadsign 645]

Do you honestly think no more than a handful of people think that way?

 

There are no moral issues dealt with in the game at all, certainly not in players heads hardly anyone stops and thinks "I should help that guy" or have you not played the game much? You get the odd nonviolent person but walk up to anyone with guns and they'll shoot you unless you're a fresh spawn, even then they'll most likely shoot you...

The players themselves have ruined all moral tension in the game, sooner or later everyone has the "fuck it" moment if they were ever helpful.

 

Well that is in itself a moral question raised implicitly by the game. 

 

Would there be morality after the breakdown of society? Or even the meta-game question; can a game ever really establish a morality system that is directed by players alone? (For some I truly believe it can.)

 

Sure some people shoot everyone without caring and that does raise the question of whether an individual's morals can survive under such conditions, for many in DayZ it seems that they can't. But those are interesting conditions for the rest of us. 

 

Even those who do kill on sight do so because they do not want to trust others---which is a moral decision. 

 

Anyway what I'm trying to say is DayZ does raise some interesting moral dilemmas and questions---whether you care about it or not. I think a black and white moral system based on killing is antithetical to any interesting discussion about the morals of DayZ and would ruin the game for those who do like to think about such things.

Edited October 18, 2014 by DoctorBadSign

[UltimateGentleman 355]

Even those who do kill on sight do so because they do not want to trust others---which is a moral decision.

Well, they do say that but who knows if it's really true or not, either it is or it's just a poor excuse for "I want to kill people l0l"

 

 

Overly complex system for something that is not a problem. And will be even more of not a problem when proper survival is introduced. 

And that's on top of ridiculous amount of data that will have to be recorder and analysed for over 2 million players. 

I highly doubt the game will get all that much more difficult though it's not going to be that hard to find ammo or guns, else there'd be almost no point in having them. Half the people playing don't seem to want a survival game so if they start leaving because the lack of loot ammo and guns will find their way back in to common loot drops...

All anyone is ever going to have to do is find a heli crash, not like they;d go to the effort of setting that up just to take it out.

 

Not to mention that in future zombies will work properly so should be easier to kill, thus people will be out for a deathmatch once again.

[General Zod 1118]

I highly doubt the game will get all that much more difficult though it's not going to be that hard to find ammo or guns, else there'd be almost no point in having them. Half the people playing don't seem to want a survival game so if they start leaving because the lack of loot ammo and guns will find their way back in to common loot drops...

All anyone is ever going to have to do is find a heli crash, not like they;d go to the effort of setting that up just to take it out.

 

Not to mention that in future zombies will work properly so should be easier to kill, thus people will be out for a deathmatch once again.

We'll see about the loot rarity, that being said. 

"People don't want survival game". For now we don't any other survival elements other than rain and cold, it's too early do judge. But if people will leave the game because guns got rare than all the better for it. 

In the end your analysis system will never work, too much data, too many variables and don't even get started on what a mess will it be when larger amount of people will get into a fight. 

[doctorbadsign 645]

Well, they do say that but who knows if it's really true or not, either it is or it's just a poor excuse for "I want to kill people l0l"

 

Well I think those who kill for fun are open about it. I've killed for fun on occasion (and felt really bad after). There's not really any reason to lie about your motives in a video game.

 

I think there are many, many ex-friendlies who kill on sight because of their newly developed trust issues. I've felt like that at times.