More spray anyone ?

[Katana67 2907]

Even if they only allowed one to spawn per 20 servers once a week.  By the end of the week there would be thousands of people running around with them due to duping.  Rarity is useless with duping enabled.

 

Again, a problem with something other than the fact that things are rare. That's a problem with duping, not the fact that things can be made rare. Having the mere possibility of exploitation dictate entire gameplay mechanics never struck me as a particularly logical mode of advancing the game.

 

Fix duping. Don't let it dictate what can be done in DayZ.

 

And either way, if the hive only allows X amount of Y items on the server at any given time, I would imagine that duping wouldn't be possible. It could, in theory, detect and autodelete any instances of an item it finds which are in excess of the prescribed amount.

 

EDIT - It's still funny (not referring to your post anymore) that people still blur the lines between an item being common and an item being merely included in DayZ. I mean, how do people not realize... in this day and age... that these are two different issues completely? It just baffles me. People always come out with "Don't add X at all, because everyone will walk around like some tacticool warrior operator bro!" Which, for one, assumes that having military gear is somehow contrary to survival (it isn't, you'd be a fool to not be searching for military gear if you were trying to survive, as most of it is designed expressly to facilitate the survival of the operator). Secondly, it completely gives the middle finger to the concept of rarity. If you were coming across a 100-round magazine once every month, I doubt you'd be able to say that "everyone" has it.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Katana67

[bauertschi 254]

Again, a problem with something other than the fact that things are rare. That's a problem with duping, not the fact that things can be made rare. Having the mere possibility of exploitation dictate entire gameplay mechanics never struck me as a particularly logical mode of advancing the game.

 

Fix duping. Don't let it dictate what can be done in DayZ.

 

And either way, if the hive only allows X amount of Y items on the server at any given time, I would imagine that duping wouldn't be possible. It could, in theory, detect and autodelete any instances of an item it finds which are in excess of the prescribed amount.

 

EDIT - It's still funny (not referring to your post anymore) that people still blur the lines between an item being common and an item being merely included in DayZ. I mean, how do people not realize... in this day and age... that these are two different issues completely? It just baffles me. People always come out with "Don't add X at all, because everyone will walk around like some tacticool warrior operator bro!" Which, for one, assumes that having military gear is somehow contrary to survival (it isn't, you'd be a fool to not be searching for military gear if you were trying to survive, as most of it is designed expressly to facilitate the survival of the operator). Secondly, it completely gives the middle finger to the concept of rarity. If you were coming across a 100-round magazine once every month, I doubt you'd be able to say that "everyone" has it.

 

The concept of rarity as you call it is the problem, at least when you assume it will not be broken. I don't care if the rare item appears once in a while as long as it stays rare. Cheating is the problem, an undeniable one. Your idea of removing items that excess amount limits is most absurd:

 

Cheater x gives himself rare item y. Server checks, "hey, there should only be 30 of those in the hive! I'll remove it from random player z". Problem solved. Random player z was legit and found rare item x once in 200 hours. Rage QUIT! FUCK THIS GAME! All the while cheater c wants item y and decides to cheat himself one...IF cheaters have the ability to get such rare items, they will be the only ones having such items with the system you proposed, maybe even removing them from other cheaters until they loose them again, but hey, when they need them, just cheat the items again. So we have op rare items that only cheaters have. Even worse than now as far as I'm concerned. At least with duping items are not removed from legit players.

 

I got an idea: Why don't we wait with super rare op items (that are obvioiusly not neccessary to play the game) until beta or final stage. Then we look if duping and creating stuff from thin air with cheats is resolved, let's just see if we get to a point where such things were not going on for 6 months or so. If and only if aquireing items through cheating is gone for such a period of time, then we can argue about sense and senselessness of items that are immensly rare.

 

It's still funny (not referring to your post anymore) that people still argue with the difference between an item being common and an item being merely included in DayZ. I mean, how do people not realize... in this day and age... that these are two different issues completely in theory, but not in reality. It gives the middle finger to the legit player finding a 100-round mag only once a month while cheaters have them all the time. As long as rarity is not being proven to work against cheats and duping, the concept is interesting but not usable.

 

Another thing is what do rare items do with the gameplay. It is hard to trust and too many encounters end per default in death before a word was exchanged. At least a lot of ppl argue that way. Now what happens when rare items are mixed in? They are usually all on players, as soon as the hive decides that there enough of them out there. So on top of all reasons we currently have to kos instead of talking, there is one more, because the only way to get rare items is from other players - usually out of their sticky dead hands.

Edited September 7, 2014 by bautschi

[gibonez 3633]

The amount of fire power the AKM and the m4 have is insane in standalone.

 

I am ok with that so long as they are in the very upper tier of weapons and are put in the list of restrictive weapons.

 

hopefully when the hive loot system is in place, the m4, akm, 101 , high capacity drum mags, and optics are all managed so only a certain small number spawn across all servers.

 

Also does the US  military even issue any Drum magazines ? I don't think so. I could be wrong but I thought the only drum mags found for ar 15s are found strictly in the civilian market and those things are extremely expensive and pieces of crap.

Edited September 7, 2014 by gibonez

[Katana67 2907]

-snip-

 

Your prose and points are unintelligible. On one hand you're confirming what I'm saying (that cheating is the problem, not things being rare). And on the other, you're seemingly identifying rarity as a motivator for KOS (which is true, but I don't consider that to be a problem at all, and is a prime driver in the turnover of rare items in spawns), which is something that has no relevance anyhow.

 

military even issue any Drum magazines ? I don't think so. I could be wrong but I thought the only drum mags found for ar 15s are found strictly in the civilian market and those things are extremely expensive and pieces of crap.

 

So now something being civilian-only is a disqualifier?

 

Beta C-MAGs are like $200 USD. Compare that to the multiple-thousand-dollar Blaze 95 spawning in residential areas.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Katana67

[bauertschi 254]

Your prose and points are unintelligible. On one hand you're confirming what I'm saying (that cheating is the problem, not things being rare). And on the other, you're seemingly identifying rarity as a motivator for KOS (which is true, but I don't consider that to be a problem at all, and is a prime driver in the turnover of rare items in spawns), which is something that has no relevance anyhow.

...

 

Simple words: As long as duping and item cheating are not out and REALLY proven to be out for a while, having rare items in the game is bullshit. Cheaters will have them, legit players not so much. Simply hoping that cheating and duping will be gone in the future and going on with the argument like those problems will not exist is ridiculous.

 

The kos thing is just how it changes gameplay and while I am certainly not a goody hero, quite the opposite really, even I think we do not need more incentive to kos. So I simply pointed out how such rare items (that are really rare and therefore don't really add to the gameplay most of the time) will have negative results elsewhere.

 

Hopefully this post is easy enough to decipher.

Edited September 7, 2014 by bautschi

[Katana67 2907]

Simple words: As long as duping and item cheating are not out and REALLY proven to be out for a while, having rare items in the game is bullshit. Cheaters will have them, legit players not so much.

 

Which is sort of what I was saying.

 

Widespread duping, cheating, and exploiting are the problems behind illegitimate commonality. Not the fact that items are included in the game, and certainly not the fact that things are to be made rare.

 

These problems have to be addressed in and of themselves, not merely accepted as facts of life to dictate the course of DayZ. Obviously, most of the three (if not all) cannot be eradicated 100%. But they can be marginalized to the point of being irrelevant/outliers. Duping can be fixed. Cheating can be minimized. Exploiting can be minimized.

 

These are issues which exist separately from the items included in the game. If we start saying "We can't include X because it might be duped" then we'll be left with two things - nothing (because why include an M4A1 if it's just going to be duped?!), or, a bland "balanced" experience where everything is the same.

[gibonez 3633]

So now something being civilian-only is a disqualifier?

 

Beta C-MAGs are like $200 USD. Compare that to the multiple-thousand-dollar Blaze 95 spawning in residential areas.

 

Of course not.

 

However as much as you like to tout the world being a global economy the chances or likelihood of finding a very obscure magazine that would be rare in America would be downright impossible to find halfway across the globe.Drum mags are not like Pmags that are insanely cheap and millions have been sold thus likely to be found. Drum mags for the Ar15 are expensive and not widely adopted by even the American civilian market.

 

Reason I mentioned if it was standard issue is simply because if it is indeed standard issue then it has an exponentially higher chance of actually being found in that part of the world.

[Katana67 2907]

Of course not.

 

However as much as you like to tout the world being a global economy the chances or likelihood of finding a very obscure magazine that would be rare in America would be downright impossible to find halfway across the globe.

 

Again, likelihood = rarity. Likelihood =/= inclusion. If something's unlikely to be found in real life, then it should be made rare if it is to be realistic. Not precluded from inclusion entirely, now that's unrealistic.

 

If these things are rare in real life, like you say, wouldn't the realistic thing to do be to... make them rare in DayZ?

 

Either way, the Beta C-Mag is/has been used by European militaries with the G36. Not to mention that there are C-Mags available for most other standard-issue service rifles in service in Europe today. Also, there are drum mags for the AR-15 out there that aren't Beta C-Mags.

 

And, also again, I'm not sue by what criterion you're deeming something as "obscure." Because a lot of folks in the United States seem to have C-mags, and can purchase them to this day if they wish.

 

You're certainly not using any real data to deem something as "unlikely/obscure." Not that said data would be relevant anyway, as DayZ is a work of fiction not adherent to reality.

 

 

 

 

That and it could be a Surefire 100-rounder for all I care, I have absolutely zero issue with a 100-round magazine being included for the M4A1.

 

Also worth mentioning that there are 100-rounders for the RPK/AKs out there, and I doubt people would even bat an eye if they were included (seeing how, also, we've already got the 75 rounder).

Edited September 7, 2014 by Katana67

[Bororm 1156]

Duping is never going to be fixed completely in this type of game.

 

Drum mags are lame.  I get Katana's point, but that's why I'm more of an advocate of waiting to implement these things, because right now we don't have a loot system that supports "rare" items, and look at the state of the game.  AKMs and AKM drum mags are so common that you can find 7 of them in one loot run of a mil base.

 

There's also the detriment of drum mags when it comes to LMGs and differentiating between weapons.  What's really the point of an LMG if your assault rifle does the same shit, in the context of the game currently.  100 round m4 may as well be a SAW until they implement more mechanics to better differentiate between the weapons.  So again, they should wait till they have these systems in place.

 

Wait till LMGs are in, wait till there's a larger variety of military grade weaponry, wait till the loot economy system is actually complete.

 

Also, there's a pretty big difference in being able to spray 30 rounds vs 100.

[Katana67 2907]

There's also the detriment of drum mags when it comes to LMGs and differentiating between weapons.

 

This is the only reason why I wouldn't want 100 round magazines for assault rifles. Because that's one of the major distinctive advantages of an LMG. But the same could be said of the M249 being able to be fed by STANAG mags.

 

And even then, I'm okay with it if they're rare in the first place... spawn empty... and if LMGs have some sort of performance distinction (i.e. longer range, less wear-and-tear, etc.)

 

And I don't necessarily agree that there's a big difference in being able to spray 30 vs. 100 rounds. You're still spraying, and if it takes more than 30 rounds to bring somebody down... then it's pretty much the target's fault anyhow for not being able to kill the spray-er in that amount of time.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Katana67

[hothtimeblues 128]

Yeah why would they nerf us with layers of clothing but then add 100 round drum magazines? Wtf?

[over9000nukez 199]

i use the AK101, because i DON'T think the drum mags are necessary as some, and also its much more accurate, and faster bullet 5.56 then the akm rounds 7.62x39. t this state, the disgusting thing is you have a bunch of people running around in dayz with like 5 drum mags, and like 3 boxes of rounds for their akm, which is awful, because it shows they expect to be missing A LOT :D, which is nice for us shooters who can take them out with a damn pistol at times.

[General Zod 1118]

Yeah why would they nerf us with layers of clothing but then add 100 round drum magazines? Wtf?

Well if those mags are super rare I don't see a problem. Currently military grade items are too common. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by General Zod

[wud 143]

I agree with over9000nukes, if  a 30round-mag is not enough.. then..
 at least 1 party is doing something wrong.

Imho, mag with higher cap is needed if youre scared in close quarters
& want  to hold the trigger or just feel safe not needing to reload so soon.

edit\
i even need to rethink my inital threadstarter-post..

i started this thread because i thought 75+ rounds are OP atm
+ lead to different gameplay approch by some individuals
but now i think that Mosin and MP5-K with red dot  Combination is OP
or i´ll just know how to handle submachineguns

this rate of fire of the H&Ksub is insane 111!111!
15 deadly (to the head of course) bullets in 0,96 sec. 
thanks to Aggathor for THIS guidehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni3rBMiuFnk&list=UUEaZAoRquVbDm7-8u1qastw&channel=WOBOchannel


 

Edited September 8, 2014 by dawud