People's thoughts on hip firing?

[Bororm 1156]

I don't believe a single person hasn't mentioned that there is no hip-firing in Arma or DayZ. Your rifle is shouldered, you're just not using your sights.

Of course it's fairly easy to shoot at short ranges without using your sights, you have a very good idea of where you're aiming.

 

I thought I'd mentioned it but I guess not, but it's the reason I suggested a new animation and why I had "hips" in quotations.

 

I was envisioning a new animation where you actually are firing from the hip rather than the shoulder with a bit of an added recoil penalty (nothing tremendous).  I guess I never fleshed that out in any of my posts, I went through a few iterations/edits and it got lost along the way I guess =P

 

Any ways, on that topic I think there could be some merit in it.  It could better differentiate and add some extra depth to combat if there were a clearer difference between hip firing and not.  It would also give the added benefit of being able to tell what your enemy is actually doing.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Once you figure out where to aim relative to the dot in third person, it remains constant and is very easy to kill other players. This is a valid point, and one I've noticed a lot more since this awful new weapon sway was introduced.

It's not really viable beyond 100 meters as Imp mentioned, but in a game like this I feel it shouldn't be viable at all.

[rybec 339]

I thought I'd mentioned it but I guess not, but it's the reason I suggested a new animation and why I had "hips" in quotations.

 

I was envisioning a new animation where you actually are firing from the hip rather than the shoulder with a bit of an added recoil penalty (nothing tremendous).  I guess I never fleshed that out in any of my posts, I went through a few iterations/edits and it got lost along the way I guess =P

 

Any ways, on that topic I think there could be some merit in it.  It could better differentiate and add some extra depth to combat if there were a clearer difference between hip firing and not.  It would also give the added benefit of being able to tell what your enemy is actually doing.

I say it'd be a terrible idea because nobody actually shoots like that except for the people who say Allah guides their bullets.

[hotcakes 348]

It's not hipfire, it's scoped and unscoped. 

 

Know the difference. :^)

[Etherimp 1323]

Once you figure out where to aim relative to the dot in third person, it remains constant and is very easy to kill other players. This is a valid point, and one I've noticed a lot more since this awful new weapon sway was introduced.

It's not really viable beyond 100 meters as Imp mentioned, but in a game like this I feel it shouldn't be viable at all.

 

 

I dunno, I can snap shot a rifle up to about 20 meters and hit a small paint can hanging from a tree 9 times out of 10. It's not that hard to aim your gun at something, fire, and hit it within a certain range. 

[Bororm 1156]

I say it'd be a terrible idea because nobody actually shoots like that except for the people who say Allah guides their bullets.

 

And do people actually raise their gun to their eyes, but not actually aim down the sights to fire?

 

 

It's not hipfire, it's scoped and unscoped. 

 

Know the difference. :^)

 

Not when there's no scope involved =P

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[Forrelist 236]

Sometimes you just don't have a choice and have to spray hip fire. i.e. when you run into someone around a corner or a doorway. going into sights = dead.

[Bororm 1156]

Sometimes you just don't have a choice and have to spray hip fire. i.e. when you run into someone around a corner or a doorway. going into sights = dead.

 

This is when it's most appropriate, the issue I'm bringing up is when it becomes more desirable to fire from the hip in other scenarios where it "shouldn't" necessarily be, simply because it's easier/there are no drawbacks, or potentially even an advantage.

 

 

I'm trying to research into whether or not it's a common practice to hold your rifle to your shoulder/eyes but not actually use the sights.  While there was a technique called "quick kill" or "instinctive fire" that was taught during Vietnam, it seems it is no longer popular and for the most part these things aren't taught outside of more specialized training.

Here's a quote directly from the US army field manual on it

 

 

(4) Instinctive Fire. This technique is the least desirable. The gunner focuses on the

target and points the weapon in the target’s general direction, using muscle memory to

compensate for lack of aim. This technique should be used only in emergencies

 

While that does fit the preferred scenario of when you'd want to use it (in emergencies), again, in DayZ SA it's often preferable to shoot that way at short distances simply because there's little drawback.  While I'm more concerned about pvp, I find I hip fire on zombies a lot from 10-20m just because its easier.

 

Actual firing from the hip has fallen out of favor as well too from what I can tell, though it was popular in ww2 and of course as our friend Heav has pointed out, less trained individuals.

 

I still think that an actual animation of firing from the hip or at least a noticeably different stance would be appropriate to better reflect what's going on.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[rybec 339]

While that does fit the preferred scenario of when you'd want to use it (in emergencies), again, in DayZ SA it's often preferable to shoot that way at short distances simply because there's little drawback.  While I'm more concerned about pvp, I find I hip fire on zombies a lot from 10-20m just because its easier.

 

In another way you have it as an unintended compromise for a lack of sight switching.

 

Scenario 1: I'm using the PSO mounted on my AKM. This does not obstruct the irons as it's side mounted. I can use the optics normally, or in small urban fights I can use the irons without an issue.

Scenario 2: I'm using the ACOG mounted on my M4. This one does obstruct the irons but has backups ontop as it's not the version with the fiber-optic cable ontop.

 

This is not an issue in Arma2 and Arma3. Unlike in those games, in DayZ there is no button for this and you must remove your optics to use your irons again.

[Etherimp 1323]

 

This is when it's most appropriate, the issue I'm bringing up is when it becomes more desirable to fire from the hip in other scenarios where it "shouldn't" necessarily be, simply because it's easier/there are no drawbacks, or potentially even an advantage.

 

 

I'm trying to research into whether or not it's a common practice to hold your rifle to your shoulder/eyes but not actually use the sights.  While there was a technique called "quick kill" or "instinctive fire" that was taught during Vietnam, it seems it is no longer popular and for the most part these things aren't taught outside of more specialized training.

Here's a quote directly from the US army field manual on it

 

 

While that does fit the preferred scenario of when you'd want to use it (in emergencies), again, in DayZ SA it's often preferable to shoot that way at short distances simply because there's little drawback.  While I'm more concerned about pvp, I find I hip fire on zombies a lot from 10-20m just because its easier.

 

 

 

 

Think about a realistic scenario where you're holding ... say, a shotgun.. Or a handgun like a glock 9mm.. If I am standing behind a doorway in my house, aiming down a corridor waiting for someone to come through a door, I will likely be aiming down sights, as I know exactly where to expect someone and I do not need any peripheral vision. My shot will be as accurate as possible.

 

If, however, I am moving through a large warehouse, and it's possible that someone could be behind any corner/wall/object, I will probably be holding my gun up at shoulder/chest level, aiming my gun where-ever my eyes go, and reflexively firing when I see someone. Yes, I sacrifice a bit of accuracy but I am maintaining a greater field of view and allowing my eyes to see more around me. If someone does appear, and I fire, and miss, I have at least suppressed them, and they (presumably) would move back behind cover, at which point I could look down sights and train the barrel towards where I expect them to be next. 

 

This is essentially how I play in DayZ and I think it feels the most natural. I have a video which demonstrates this well with a Mosin.. My friend and I get in a fire-fight in the middle of an intersection, and I have a LRS attached to my mosin. I use "hip fire" 2-3 times just to take snap-shots at our enemies. I can't say whether any hit or not, or if it was worth doing.. I just know it's what felt right to do in that moment.

 

 

 

Watch about the first 2-3 minutes of that video.

[bauertschi 254]

The crosshair should be removed and free aim added making hip firing at something past 20 feet near impossible.

 

Removal of the crosshair or even making it too invisible (already dangerously so) leads to one thing: Ppl blue-tacking their monitors.

 

No anti cheat software will find it and it is easy. It only hurts legit players to a point where I actually think it is ok to blue-tack your monitor because everyone does it. And that's coming from a dude who refuses to look through walls...

 

I think "hip" fire is too accurate, just increase dispersion when it is used.

[terminal_boy 860]

Perhaps a valid question is up to what distance people think hip firing should be effective?

 

Etherimp has pointed out that currently it's around 50m, which for the most part I'd agree with, but do people think it should be further? closer?

Hip fire at anything beyond 10 metres only works if you enough ammo to "walk" your shots onto target.

[RagedDrew 209]

I wouldn't recommend shooting in 3rd person view, it's horrible, I've done it twice, lucky for me I managed to bring down my target each time.

 

First time was way back when Elektro was the PVP area, I ran into the school/office building to the top floor room where the guns usually spawn.

There's a new spawn in there, he starts swinging an axe, I have no time to go into ADS so I just light the room up, 1 clan mate runs in behind me, then high tails it right back out as bullets are bouncing off of everything other than the target, I empty an entire mag at this guy and miss every shot, I run out of the room to reload and get into first person before finishing the job.

 

The last time was about a week ago (when they implemented persistent storage on official servers) I was running south into Elektro on the road, just got to the outskirts of the town, had the fire station in my sights, when I hit a cress in the road and someone with their mosin out and looking at me, took a round the chest while trying to pull my M4, took another round to chest as I get the M4 out and just light the fucker up again, let out about 26 rounds in 3rd person and dropped them.

 

So my opinion on shooting from the hip in 3rd person, just don't and even if you know how much your dot is off set from 1st person it's still horrid.

[korpisoturi (DayZ) 127]

always hip fire when CQC. But I have noticed that some update has drasticly reduced the accuracy of hipfire. But even still, hip fire will save you in sudden close encounter.

 

Think about it like this. IF you were a soldier, and would meet enemy in, let's say, hallway. Would you lift your weapon and start to aim? Sorry but hip fire works well IRL as well.

[Evil Minion 943]

Hip firing virtually turns you into a Soviet mook right out of 1980s Hollywood action films.

[Etherimp 1323]

Hip firing virtually turns you into a Soviet mook right out of 1980s Hollywood action films.

 

 

Better than being turned into a corpse.

[Katana67 2907]

I think the reason most fire from the hip is because there's no real penalty for not doing so, especially with the HUD dot being used for pinpoint accuracy. Which is said to be removed across the board.

 

That and the fact that ARMA/DayZ has pretty cumbersome ADS character movement really pushes people to find the path of least resistance. Definitely needs some attention in my opinion. There's no real incentive to use a CQC optic when in CQC, because you're moving at a snail's pace.

 

I don't really have any issue with hip-fire as a concept, I just have an issue with ADS having no real advantage (aside from when using magnified optics of course) and a ton of added downsides. I'd just rather it not be relied upon as frequently as it is, which could be helped by taking a second look at it.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

Removal of the crosshair or even making it too invisible (already dangerously so) leads to one thing: Ppl blue-tacking their monitors.

 

No anti cheat software will find it and it is easy. It only hurts legit players to a point where I actually think it is ok to blue-tack your monitor because everyone does it. And that's coming from a dude who refuses to look through walls...

 

I think "hip" fire is too accurate, just increase dispersion when it is used.

 

Let them blue tack then.

 

The point is hip firing should not be a viable option unless you are firing at point blank range.

 

In real life shooting from the hip is downright useless for anything past 10 feet the same should apply in real life.

 

Red orchestra 2 achieves this by using free aim and I think forcing free aim on everyone + removing the crosshair would fix this.

[Etherimp 1323]

I think the reason most fire from the hip is because there's no real penalty for not doing so, especially with the HUD dot being used for pinpoint accuracy. Which is said to be removed across the board.

 

That and the fact that ARMA/DayZ has pretty cumbersome ADS character movement really pushes people to find the path of least resistance. Definitely needs some attention in my opinion. There's no real incentive to use a CQC optic when in CQC, because you're moving at a snail's pace.

 

I don't really have any issue with hip-fire as a concept, I just have an issue with ADS having no real advantage (aside from when using magnified optics of course) and a ton of added downsides. I'd just rather it not be relied upon as frequently as it is, which could be helped by taking a second look at it.

 

 

There's not Pinpoint accuracy on the HUD Dot. Go test it.

Your shots land down and to the right of the hud dot, and it's not representative of where your gun is aiming, only where you are actually looking.

[Katana67 2907]

There's not Pinpoint accuracy on the HUD Dot. Go test it.

Your shots land down and to the right of the hud dot, and it's not representative of where your gun is aiming, only where you are actually looking.

 

Works fine out to 200m for me when rested. And insanely well when not rested inside of 50m. It's not accurate for picking up items, but it works pretty consistently for shooting.

 

I'll give you that it now (as previously in ARMA, the dot/line indicated how out of breath you were) acts independently of your exhaustion.

 

But if you're not coming off of a sprint, it's pretty accurate.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Katana67

[Evil Minion 943]

Hip firing has the issue that you cannot see your sway - so you basically got a huge boost in dispersion that makes you miss over greater distances.

[Bororm 1156]

Tested some more, tapping shots while hip firing is very accurate, and it is easier to control/keep on target than aiming down sights.  I tested at about 30-40m with an akm, tapping shots.

 

If people want I can edit it and post a little video, but I feel it's not terribly worth it, as my test wasn't terribly scientific.  Just go try it for yourselves, find a decent target (I used some trash cans, and also learned they fall over after a fair amount of hits =P) and just test hip firing on them, and compare it to ads.

 

When it comes to sway the sights are preferred I'd say, but if you're just standing still hip firing seems better for sub 40m ranges.  I think you could do decently past that range, but at that point I found it more difficult to tell where my shots were landing by hip firing, as impacts aren't terribly visible on a lot of terrain/surfaces.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Bororm

[Etherimp 1323]

Works fine out to 200m for me when rested. And insanely well when not rested inside of 50m. It's not accurate for picking up items, but it works pretty consistently for shooting.

 

I'll give you that it now (as previously in ARMA, the dot/line indicated how out of breath you were) acts independently of your exhaustion.

 

But if you're not coming off of a sprint, it's pretty accurate.

 

 

 

If you switch between "ADS" and "hud DOT" while fixed on a location (like say, a point between 2 lines on a door), and you fire at both, you can see theres an obvious difference between the two.

[stielhandgranate 480]

always hip fire when CQC. But I have noticed that some update has drasticly reduced the accuracy of hipfire. But even still, hip fire will save you in sudden close encounter.

 

Think about it like this. IF you were a soldier, and would meet enemy in, let's say, hallway. Would you lift your weapon and start to aim? Sorry but hip fire works well IRL as well.

 

A trained soldier would be clearing out a building at the position of low ready with their primary weapon or with a pistol if his or her weapon was too awkward to keep at low ready. Depending on the distance,or if your adversary conducts a reaction drill, hip firing will lose out.

[Karmaterror 982]

I have a feeling it maybe an illusion...

 

This dexterity system...as I understand the crosshair moves to point and the gun lags behind a little. So, when you control the recoil from the "hip" the crosshair looks like you have it under control but the gun is still catching up. Where when you ADS you watch the gun move at its true speed, not the crosshair.

 

Or not :)